Why couldn't they just have shortened it? That was my favorite stage.

Maybe make it like 20k... instead of the ridiculous 67.5 it was last year. That way I still get my favorite stage, the press get their pictures, and crappy (relatiavely speaking anyway... not like I can do better... :p ) teams with GC competetors don't get smashed from the get go.

My $0.02...

:mad:

I'd love to see a TTT with a mtn top finish one day. Can you imagine the spectacle of watching teams doing 45k on a rolling parcours with a 10-15k climb to the finish! Keep the current fixed time penalty system in place and the results would be fair. My other wishlist would be to finish the Tour with a TTT ending on the Champs Elysees.

I'd love to see a TTT with a mtn top finish one day. Can you imagine the spectacle of watching teams doing 45k on a rolling parcours with a 10-15k climb to the finish! Keep the current fixed time penalty system in place and the results would be fair.


haha. Imagine the blow to some teams' egos when they find out they're finishing 15+ minutes behind the leaders.

What about a TTTR? Team Time Trial Relay. It'd be like the Madison, but on the road.

Why couldn't they just have shortened it? That was my favorite stage.

Maybe make it like 20k... instead of the ridiculous 67.5 it was last year. That way I still get my favorite stage, the press get their pictures, and crappy (relatiavely speaking anyway... not like I can do better... :p ) teams with GC competetors don't get smashed from the get go.

My $0.02...

:mad:

The french are communists. They don't like the big teams beating up on their puny little continental teams. I was hoping to get to see the big shootout between CSC and T-mobile. They claim to make it fairer but what they are doing is taking away some of the spectacle that goes with being the big tour.

The french are communists. They don't like the big teams beating up on their puny little continental teams. I was hoping to get to see the big shootout between CSC and T-mobile. They claim to make it fairer but what they are doing is taking away some of the spectacle that goes with being the big tour.

Although I like it, this does make it a more fair race, because the smaller teams don't have the budgets, and the gear to make for a good TTT. This levels the playing field a little more. Anyway, the Tour organizers took the teeth out of the TTT in 2004 when they put in the time limiting losses thing. That was stupid. If you're going to have the TTT, then have it, and whoever loses time loses that time, don't limit losses.

That being said, the TTT has never been a huge part of the Tour in the past, and only has been an occassional stage here and there. It's no big deal.

As far as the OPs opinion about shortening it to 20k... What's the freakin' point? That's like a prologue for these guys, especially for a TTT. That would just be stupid. Now in the future if they want to do a TTT, they should make it 100k just like the "good old days." Now THAT would be a spectacle.

Man, for 20K... the big names could just hide and NEVER pull. That short a distance, you would be able to get scintillating times with just two or three people doing the work.

What about a TTTR? Team Time Trial Relay. It'd be like the Madison, but on the road.

A madison version of the tour one loop witha big climb and the rest rolling/flat 2 man teams. My winning team would be Heras and Backsted can you just imagn the toss Heras would get into the base of the climb each lap.

I'd love to see a TTT with a mtn top finish one day. Can you imagine the spectacle of watching teams doing 45k on a rolling parcours with a 10-15k climb to the finish! Keep the current fixed time penalty system in place and the results would be fair. My other wishlist would be to finish the Tour with a TTT ending on the Champs Elysees.

They had something similar at the Tour de Med in 2004. It was Lucien Aimar's idea. The finish was at the top of Mont Faron. The finishing times are individual, though. Basically all teams ended up burning up their TT-type riders in the flat portions, and then had the climbers pace the GC guys to the top. And yes, a great many number of French Div 2 teams did blow up prematurely, and the race ended up with a large number of stragglers struggling up to make the cut.

They should just call it the crappy French Team Protection adjustment. Seeing that the crappy french teams were getting blown out of the water (especially the wild card French teams chosen over more deserving squads), they first had to neuter the event with the absurb time loss limits, then when even that didn't help, they cut one of the coolest events of the race.

What's next- head starts for all french riders? Turning a blind eye to a french riders holding onto the team car for dear life in the Alps (too late).

What a joke- imagine how pissed CSC and T-Mobile must have been.

Given the laughable bias exhibited by the organizers, maybe the rise of the UCI's Protour is a darn good thing.

:mad:

They should just call it the crappy French Team Protection adjustment. Seeing that the crappy french teams were getting blown out of the water (especially the wild card French teams chosen over more deserving squads), they first had to neuter the event with the absurb time loss limits, then when even that didn't help, they cut one of the coolest events of the race.

What's next- head starts for all french riders? Turning a blind eye to a french riders holding onto the team car for dear life in the Alps (too late).

What a joke- imagine how pissed CSC and T-Mobile must have been.

Given the laughable bias exhibited by the organizers, maybe the rise of the UCI's Protour is a darn good thing.

:mad:

I knew we couldn't discuss this without someone needing to play the stupid American and make it out to be a French conspiracy. The French have no GC riders to bias this towards. They did it because they want to see the race as closely contested amoung individual riders as possible going into the ITT and the mountains. Don't like it, fine, you are certainly justified in not liking it, I can't say I do either, but quit turing everything into "the French are just sore" bullshit.

The Tour de Med TTT event is great. That should be the model, but you should still take the time on the 4th or 5th rider.

Politics aside, its a good move. I hope they do not ever bring it back. Better the focus on GC, and the possibility of some guy from a smaller team coming into the tour in fantastic form.

I think it helps the riders with not so strong teams... plain and simple, which is really good for those individuals, and it kind of takes some of the sting out of the uber-teams who rely on the TTT to move their riders significantly up the standings, then just protect the rest of the way.

I dont think it is particularly a FRENCH thing, I do however think that currently, it decreases the usefulness of a number of American cyclists who would be strongly relied upon in that particular discipline... ie VandeVelde, Zabriske, etc, etc... It does decrease a a portion of the time bonuses for any rider who's team exceled in that event.

It has oft been a criticism of Armstrong that he always had the best team or best team tactics.... and you know, it is a halfway valid point. It simply takes away a bit of the influence of the team on the overall GC.

Its not all bad.

Sometimes it seems like people only starting following the Tour when LA started winning it. The TTT has left out a number of times in the past and is actually a fairly recent addition historically, and it has even been left out when there were strong french teams. I have never missed it when it wasn't used nor liked it when it was because the Tour is won by one guy so shelling 2/3 of the contenders out the back in the first week never made sense if you want an interesting race.

To me the more notable thing about the course is how much it caters to Ullrich.

I knew we couldn't discuss this without someone needing to play the stupid American and make it out to be a French conspiracy. The French have no GC riders to bias this towards. They did it because they want to see the race as closely contested amoung individual riders as possible going into the ITT and the mountains. Don't like it, fine, you are certainly justified in not liking it, I can't say I do either, but quit turing everything into "the French are just sore" bullshit.

The Tour de Med TTT event is great. That should be the model, but you should still take the time on the 4th or 5th rider.

One- before you post any more namecalling antics (aka "stupid American") please review the Forum Guidelines.

Second- it seems clear to me you don't know what you are talking about:


Bruyneel said the video's "main protagonists" were Francaise des Jeux team sports manager Marc Madiot yelling into his race radio, the Cofidis' team's sports manager's voice yelling into his race radio and a "two or three year old boy wearing a Cofidis cap." Bruyneel said they did show some winning images but that was not the main takeaway at all.

"I could tell certain people in the crowd, other directors, almost got up and left," he said.

Bruyneel continued.

"When I think back on all that, it's been the same scenario for them for years. A French rider hasn't won the Tour in 20 years. Why? Simple, they haven't been good enough. And then you see the final ProTour standings and notice there were four Americans in the top 10 (Armstrong, 5th; Levi Leipheimer, 7th; Bobby Julich, 9th; George Hincapie, 10th) and for the French, they had four riders in the top 100 (David Moncoutie, 30th; Anthony Geslin, 62nd; Christophe Moreau, 79th; Laurent Brochard, 84th). That's the facts. It's nothing more than that. I realize it's frustrating for them."

http://www.velonews.com/pr/prn/articles/9093.0.html

Let's see- DS of a ProTour team, or you. Hmm. I think ASO's bias is well known at this point, especially seeing who their parent company is. :rolleyes:

Sometimes it seems like people only starting following the Tour when LA started winning it. The TTT has left out a number of times in the past and is actually a fairly recent addition historically, and it has even been left out when there were strong french teams. I have never missed it when it wasn't used nor liked it when it was because the Tour is won by one guy so shelling 2/3 of the contenders out the back in the first week never made sense if you want an interesting race.

To me the more notable thing about the course is how much it caters to Ullrich.

Yeah, but every previous time it was used they never had those absurd time restrictions so teams were losing plenty of time back then and it wasn't seen as a problem at all. However, since they brought it back, the "wrong" teams were losing too much time hence the change. However, this wasn't nationality based per se as much as newspaper sales based (IMHO) ASO's basic conflict of interest in the situation means they have a large institutional bias toward keeping French teams and riders in the hunt. Now that they don't even have the King of the Mountains competition (and we won't even discuss the utter hypocricy of the fawning media coverage they provided for a certain ex-Festina scandal doper), nobody for the team competition, nobody for the Green and certainly nobody for the yellow (for at least for another 4-5 years)- evidentally drastic measures were needed. Out goes the TTT and out goes many of the nasty Basque climbs this year. Ullrich certainly should benefit as the course definitely suits him.

Crass commercial concerns more than anything else probably lie at the changes, as crappy uncompetitive French teams and riders hurts newspaper and tv ratings which ASO's parent relies upon. That is why the rise of the ProTour is likely to be a good thing. The TdF isn't really even the best grand tour anyone with regard course design and balance- I think the Giro has really overtaken it.

The other aspect is the Spanish teams cannot be too happy- Liberty liked the TTT, and the others don't have any many of the nasty Basque region climbing mountain finishes as in the past to shoot for home ground stage win glory.

Let's refrain from namecalling, but euro-trash brought up a good point. If le Tour includes a TTT, there are a few certain facts:

- the TTT has to be done by the 4th or 5th stage, otherwise some teams may not even have enough riders to finish, due to injuries, sickness, etc.
- a GC team that loses too much time will be discouraged, and may even switch to hunting for stage wins or a podium spot instead of overall win.

It's hard to convince a team to count on their climber to make up a 2:30 deficit incurred by the 5th stage, or to drill minutes into their adversary in the next ITT.

I mean, imagine a stage race where the hardest, queen mountain stage is the 4th stage out of 20-21 stages total. It will catch a lot of riders and they will lose minutes on the GC, and it will discourage them. Isn't this the criticism of how the TdF has been in the past few years, which is by the end of the first mountain stage, Armstrong has stamped his authority and basically discouraged all GC pretenders from gunning for an overall win?

It makes a more exciting Tour if the GC guys aren't more bothered with securing their 7th and 5th placings on the GC. Maybe Jalabert should commentate again that getting a top-ten in the Tour is not a big deal ;-).

I knew we couldn't discuss this without someone needing to play the stupid American and make it out to be a French conspiracy. The French have no GC riders to bias this towards. They did it because they want to see the race as closely contested amoung individual riders as possible going into the ITT and the mountains. Don't like it, fine, you are certainly justified in not liking it, I can't say I do either, but quit turing everything into "the French are just sore" bullshit.

The Tour de Med TTT event is great. That should be the model, but you should still take the time on the 4th or 5th rider.

OK, lets take this to a "logical" finish shall we?

The Tour we are speaking of is called, the Tour de France. I bet, mind you its a long shot, alot of French folk would like to see a winner who is French. ITS BEEN A BIT OF DRY SPELL HUH?

I know that its a stretch, but I think anybody who has watched the Tour for the last few years has pretty much had to conclude that many French believe that there is a near crisis in the French racing scene today. Otherwise, why do you think that so many french reporters gasp in glory when a french cyclists does anything of merit in the Tour?

Hey, he urinated first, good show!! Hey, The french Nat Champ, MIGHT take the stage in the next 1 billion kilometers WHOOPIDITY DOO!!!!!

Hey look everyone, Virenque MIGHT win another climbers jersey and kiss his index finger while he does it again!!!!! Golly Tamale!! Who cares if he is destined to croak of an unknown blood cancer due to the "courage" of his doping confession?? Another joke in itself.

In short, the Frech care. Deeply, Profoundly. I again, have no Lance Love tag on me. BUT again, It is a French thing to want to win a French race which finishes in France at the French Capital. Otherwise, no French thing about it at all. :rolleyes: Assuming otherwise is folly.

To put this in perspective, let's see how many American pro cycling fans can spell out the winner of USPRO in Philly in the past 5 years. Now, how many can remember who wore the US champs jersey as a result.

See? ;-)

That is why the rise of the ProTour is likely to be a good thing. The TdF isn't really even the best grand tour anyone with regard course design and balance- I think the Giro has really overtaken it.
.

It even sounded like ASO will also try to snub the ProTour as they referenced their current impasse with the ProTour in their presentation. In fact I think the ProTour should stand their ground with them and if the ASO keeps their bad attitude then ProTour should pass them by and support the Tour of Poland or Tour of Germany.

To put this in perspective, let's see how many American pro cycling fans can spell out the winner of USPRO in Philly in the past 5 years. Now, how many can remember who wore the US champs jersey as a result.

See? ;-)

Then again that can be said about 90% of all the national champions now can't it?


:)

Then again that can be said about 90% of all the national champions now can't it?


:)

Perhaps, my cynical friend, but I can remember that Fast Freddy won the jersey a bunch of times, except in 2003 when it was Mark McCormack. Neither won the race outright, but they were the first US finisher. And this year it was Chris Wherry who actually won the race outright to boot. I can't remember any names of the foreign race winners, except Stefano Zanini, and I can't remember which year he won on top of my head. I think he was with Saeco or something, right?

All I'm saying is that I think it's the same perspective from the French audience. We all love Levi because he's a nice guy, and Floyd because he's funny, but the French press don't follow them as closely, in which case even if they finish in the top-10 it will just be a huge collective shrug and maybe gasp at Moreau slipping off the top-10. Man, I hate Moreau. How the heck did he end up with a podium girl?? This is about the one thing that most cycling junkies, regardless of nationality and regional affinity, can agree on. I mean, cripes, both Jalabert and Saiz critized Moreau in their joint interview. Maybe Abbas and Sharon can sit down and bond by bashing Moreau, too.

Pie, anyone?

It even sounded like ASO will also try to snub the ProTour as they referenced their current impasse with the ProTour in their presentation. In fact I think the ProTour should stand their ground with them and if the ASO keeps their bad attitude then ProTour should pass them by and support the Tour of Poland or Tour of Germany.

I think with the three Grand Tours and the UCI, it will be hard not to run down the classic Prisoner's Dilemma senario, especially seeing that the various organization have not always seen eye to eye anyway, and the Giro has actually benefited from the Pro Tour. I imagine if ASO keeps up their act, that McQuaid could offer something to the Giro to get them to jump ship and get a leg up on ASO.

From an admittedly more pedestrian point of view, this event will be missed. I realize it's not historically been integral to the tour, but watching a team work together in synchronized fashion was just a thing of beauty. Hope it's back in 2007. :(

They should have kept it in, removed the time issue completely for the GC, and just made it a cash race with big cash prizes for the top 3 teams. Say, $100,000 for the winning team.

Perhaps, my cynical friend, but I can remember that Fast Freddy won the jersey a bunch of times, except in 2003 when it was Mark McCormack. Neither won the race outright, but they were the first US finisher. And this year it was Chris Wherry who actually won the race outright to boot. I can't remember any names of the foreign race winners, except Stefano Zanini, and I can't remember which year he won on top of my head. I think he was with Saeco or something, right?

All I'm saying is that I think it's the same perspective from the French audience. We all love Levi because he's a nice guy, and Floyd because he's funny, but the French press don't follow them as closely, in which case even if they finish in the top-10 it will just be a huge collective shrug and maybe gasp at Moreau slipping off the top-10. Man, I hate Moreau. How the heck did he end up with a podium girl?? This is about the one thing that most cycling junkies, regardless of nationality and regional affinity, can agree on. I mean, cripes, both Jalabert and Saiz critized Moreau in their joint interview. Maybe Abbas and Sharon can sit down and bond by bashing Moreau, too.

Pie, anyone?


Poor Moreau- it isn't his fault these French teams keep throwing money at him to finish 12th overall. I would take the money too. Besides, watching him get spit out of the group on the first serious mountain of the Tour is a tradition now- like podium girls and pointless no hope break aways for TV time.

Honestly, a top ten finish at the Tour is more impressive then some of the national championships (except the Kazak one- you get to wear that sweet baby blue uni ;) )

Just to contradict myself a little, with the ProTour the TTT is actually has less effect on the outcome than it did previously because the team budget and size requirements it imposes makes the teams more equal in strength than in the past. Well except for Euskaltel who should probably be allowed to dope to keep it fair given their insistence on only Basque riders.

The Giro and Vuelta are just as, if not more, parochial than the Tour but they don't seem to get the same heat over it since they don't the same make or break effect on next year's sponsor budgets.

I actually find Equipe's behavior to be more consistent with destroying cycling rather than promoting French cycling or their own financial well being. The recent survey they conducted that showed substantially decreased interest and soured attitudes toward cycling showed they are shooting themselves in the foot with all their doping scandal sheet coverage rather than promoting anything. It may get short term sales but at the expense of destroying the base in the future.