Today I concentrated on geting out of the saddle more. At first I felt wobbley, but I was soon amazed how much faster I could get up the hills. It seems that my legs became more tired standing than sitting though. Perhaps that is due to the increased speed (work) that I summitted the hill with.

I want to learn the proper technique early, before I pick up sloppy habits. Should I try to keep the bike straight up and down, or rock it left and right as I pedal? Seems like keeping it stable would put more effort to the ground with less wasted energy. But, perhaps I'm wasting energy trying to keep the bike from rocking....

What RPM do I want to try and meet, compared to sitting? Lets say my sitting cadence is 90 rpm's.

Once standing, is it ok to sit and pedal for awhile, then stand again? Is there too much of an energy loss due to all the shifting that would be required?

TIA
Steve
St George, UT
'04 Litespeed Siena, 9 speed Ultegra, Rolf Prima Vigors

For the most part, you don't really want to stand on the climbs unless you have to. It uses a fair bit more energy than sitting, and that energy can be better put to use in making the bike go forward. When you stand, your body goes up and down with each stroke. Wasted energy. Find some footage of the pro climbs - they only stand for brief periods when negotiating a switchback or making an attack. Otherwise, the whole mountain disappears underneath them seated.

Having said that, there are times to stand. You can put more force in that way, so when you find more steep than you have strong, it's the only way to keep moving. And if you're racing, there can be reasons to expend the extra energy - and reasons to sit in and save it. It's not important how fast you get to the top, if you don't make it to the line.

If you are standing, you're right that the bike wants to be still. Don't go to unnatural lengths to keep it steady, but the throwing the bike about is wasted energy.

As for cadence, you can't pedal as fast standing as sitting, at least not if you're sitting cadence is reasonable - which at 90 or so is right in the slot. One old coaches rule is to add two gears when you stand, drop them when you sit. But when practicing that rule, remember that two gears is not necessarily two cogs. Sometimes the next-higher gear is up a ring in front, and down one (or more) on the cogset. But when you're on a hill, you're not going to want to run through all those shifting gyrations. The point is that sometimes you'll want to drop one cog, sometimes two. It depends on you setup, your hill, your motivation, and your motor.

Don't go to unnatural lengths to keep it steady, but the throwing the bike about is wasted energy.

I don't agree with this statement. While throwing the bike around when you don't need to is wasted energy, you can use the bike as leverage by rocking it back and forth. This is especially helpful when climbing steep inclines and sprinting out of the saddle -- moreso uphill than on the flats.

Interesting that standing actually wastes more energy. I guess it makes sense though. Thanks for pointing that out to me!

Hmmm, I may have to change my rear gear after all. It is 25-12, and the front is 53/39. I figured if I stood more I could handle the large hills around here better. As it is, I run on the 39 front and 25 rear without hitting the bigger hills. Then again it's only my 5th day with the bike, maybe my body will adjust.

Steve
St. George, UT

When you're standing you're using your legs & arms to support all of your body weight, vs when you're sitting the seat is supporting most of your weight. With practice you can stand for quite a while though (both endurance and technique), and it's a nice change of pace. For long hills, you'll want to sit as much as possible.

At any rate there are a few sites with tips, this one is pretty good:

http://www.insidetri.com/train/tips/articles/2787.0.html

Note: "Rock the bike just slightly from side to side, but paint a straight line up the hill with your tires"

Today I concentrated on geting out of the saddle more. At first I felt wobbley, but I was soon amazed how much faster I could get up the hills. It seems that my legs became more tired standing than sitting though. Perhaps that is due to the increased speed (work) that I summitted the hill with.

I want to learn the proper technique early, before I pick up sloppy habits. Should I try to keep the bike straight up and down, or rock it left and right as I pedal? Seems like keeping it stable would put more effort to the ground with less wasted energy. But, perhaps I'm wasting energy trying to keep the bike from rocking....

What RPM do I want to try and meet, compared to sitting? Lets say my sitting cadence is 90 rpm's.

Once standing, is it ok to sit and pedal for awhile, then stand again? Is there too much of an energy loss due to all the shifting that would be required?

TIA
Steve
St George, UT
'04 Litespeed Siena, 9 speed Ultegra, Rolf Prima Vigors

You can't do a a good job without the right tools. Standing and Sitting are tools in your cyclist tool box. Best to be well equiped with all the right tools. When building a house you don't ask should I be hammering or sawing, the aswer is you should be doing both, just at different times of the job.

I think the best description of this comes from Ken Kifer (rest in peace Ken, your legacy goes on) here:
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/skills/uphill.htm
Notice how he talks about attacking different kinds of hills with different techniques. Powering over an isolated concave hill by standing. Or spinning over a Convex hill.

Ken's got good stuff all over his site. If you're looking for a education source hit the link and explore. Also, BTW, there's a link on Ken's home page over to Sheldon Brown's site, if you have not discovered Sheldon yet, he's worth the click through.

Scot

Standing is best for two things going uphill: Accelerating, and climbing disgustingly steep sections that you can't manage while seated.

It uses more energy, can often fatigue you faster, but allows greater leverage (from your body weight) onto the pedals.

One thing beginners I see standing out of the saddle (this used to include me) doing too often is standing too vertically, sort of sticking their chest out. You want to stand from the hips, just picking your seat off of the saddle. The bike should sway underneath you, but you shoudl just be able to feel the tip of your saddle grazing the inside of your thighs.

You'll probably find you want to turn a harder gear while standing, and spin a lower RPM.

I used to hate climbing standing; it hurt, and didn't help. Now it's an asset. I still mostly climb seated -- it's way more efficient to just spin -- but when I'm riding with my college club, I'm usually drifting up and down the pack, making sure everyone's there, encouraging dropped riders, etc. Standing is LESS tiring for me at lower speeds, and strains my knees less, and I have more "kick" to accelerate to the next rider.

Some of the best climbers in the world almost never stand, and some never seem to sit. Find what works for you.

I don't agree with this statement. While throwing the bike around when you don't need to is wasted energy, you can use the bike as leverage by rocking it back and forth. This is especially helpful when climbing steep inclines and sprinting out of the saddle -- moreso uphill than on the flats.

Perhaps I misstated, or mis-emphasised my remarks. I agree with what you are saying, and in my mind fell into the "don't go to unnatural lengths to keep it straight" part.

That leverage you discuss comes (in my mind) from the ability to pull downward on the bars on the same side as you are pedaling. With all that force on one side, the bike is going to move as you lever against it, though it's a restrained movement. On the other hand, there is a somewhat natural tendency to pull against the opposite-side bar, which is a balancing reaction much like swinging arms in opposition to legs when walking or running. On a bike, it's unnecessary, and does create a waste of energy, since the pedal is moving down from force (a good thing) and from rocking (a bad thing.) It's a bad thing because it's the relative motion of the crank to the bottom bracket that makes you go, and rocking the bike moves them together rather than separately. It's that cross-sided motion that creates the big rocking.

The big, dramatic looking tossing about of the bike at a sprint finish or the top of the hill is not a case of great technique, but rather of all-out effort overcoming the discipline of good form. That doesn't mean it's bad, because they couldn't go that fast and maintain form. It means that we try to not do it, but to accept that it will happen when we go to 110% effort.

All that said, a lot of this is about feel, and two folks can disagree strongly in theory and do the exact same thing on the bike.

Interesting that standing actually wastes more energy. I guess it makes sense though. Thanks for pointing that out to me!

Hmmm, I may have to change my rear gear after all. It is 25-12, and the front is 53/39. I figured if I stood more I could handle the large hills around here better. As it is, I run on the 39 front and 25 rear without hitting the bigger hills. Then again it's only my 5th day with the bike, maybe my body will adjust.

Steve
St. George, UT

Gearing and fitness go together to get you up the hills. If you're not getting up hills because they're too steep (that is, you simply can't make the crank turn near the bottom of the hill), standing will help get you up in the absence of raw power If you're not getting up hills because they're too long (that is, you can move up the first part, but just gas out along the way) sitting and spinning the pedals will get you up as far as your present aerobic capacity will allow.

Changing gearing will help you more in getting up the 'steeps' than it will getting up the 'longs,' though that's something of an oversimplification. Lower gearing helps on the longs if it allows you to sit a slope that you'd otherwise need to stand on to turn the cranks.

"I want to learn the proper technique early, before I pick up sloppy habits. Should I try to keep the bike straight up and down, or rock it left and right as I pedal? Seems like keeping it stable would put more effort to the ground with less wasted energy. But, perhaps I'm wasting energy trying to keep the bike from rocking....

What RPM do I want to try and meet, compared to sitting? Lets say my sitting cadence is 90 rpm's.

Once standing, is it ok to sit and pedal for awhile, then stand again? Is there too much of an energy loss due to all the shifting that would be required?"

#1 Rock and roll if you need to. Some people can climb like a deer. Some climb like drunken deer.
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#2 Whatever is right for you. Some people climb at 75-80 RPM, some climb at 90 RPM.
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#3 Yes.....unless you are on "uppers"........(Or weigh 130 pounds)

Thanks for all the advice. I'm working a bunch of hours over the next couple days, so I'll re-read and think about your input on my next day off. I don't want to just superficially glance at the links you provided.

Steve

Thanks for all the advice. I'm working a bunch of hours over the next couple days, so I'll re-read and think about your input on my next day off. I don't want to just superficially glance at the links you provided.

Steve

Learning by example is not a bad idea. Find a riding buddy who is a better climber than you are, and try to follow his/her wheel up a climb. Better yet, find a riding buddy who is a better climber than you are AND has the same build as yours, and do the same exercise. You'll learn about modulating your effort at various points in a climb, and how to tackle different grades/curves, etc.