Would Congress have authorized the use of force if they had been presented with ALL the information that was available? Bush claims that they were given the same intel, but they weren't. This is another lie. Dick Cheney made many unprecidented trips to the CIA and coerced and concocted the intel. Clinton didn't have this intel. Congress and the American people weren't given the dissenting opinions this administration threw out. Bush and the WHIG group painted their own picture to meet their pre-election agenda.

How could William Jefferson Clinton have had the same intel as Bush if the lions share of it was developed after 911? This is another lie.

George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Rumsfled all manipulated the American people with the fear of the "mushroom cloud" in their runup to war. They knew this was false, yet they still went out and promoted the "mushroom cloud" on evey Sunday talk show that would host them. They knew the aluminium tubes were too small to use as centrefuges. They knew the Niger docs were forged, yet Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell all kept spreading the fear of the "mushroom cloud."

How could ALL four causes for war: WMDs, Chem/Bio, Nuke Program, UAVs all be found false? Statistically speaking this is impossible. This was not a simple intelligence failure. This was how the intelligence was interpreted and manipulated.

The intel was manipulated, and dissenting opinions were ignored, because of the agenda the Bush administration came with to the White House. The members of the Project for a New American Century hold high ranking positions within the Bush administration. Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, John Bolton...etc,.all members of PNAC, brought their agenda of attacking Iraq and disposing of Saddam to this administration. They used 911 as their excuse to enact their agenda.

This alone is an egregious abuse of the trust of the American people. Bush selected these people and is ultimately responsible. He is also ultimately responsible for taking this country to war. They misled Congress and the American people into this unnecessary war.

Bush and the Buck stops here!

So spidey, where did you c&p this drivel from?

So spidey, where did you c&p this drivel from?That's your m.o.

Not all Republicans, but the Bushcorruputrepublicans: as long as they and their buddies get a piece of the action, they don't give a damn about the truth.

the reports that Bush and Co got were 'edited' down before they were passed onto Congress. But we appreciate the RTP updates, funny if I spend 15 minutes listening to NeoCon radio I can pretty much predict what bile to expect.

Ve have no neet for thudth. Ve have veys to to make de terrorists talk. Ve know what you are talking about in your houses. You vill be delt with. So help me godt.

That's your m.o.

Not all Republicans, but the Bushcorruputrepublicans: as long as they and their buddies get a piece of the action, they don't give a damn about the truth.

No offense, I am not a Bush Backer, but that's a seriously errononeus charge, and if it is true, where is your proof? If it is indeed true, where is the evidence?..

Ve have no neet for thudth. Ve have veys to to make de terrorists talk. Ve know what you are talking about in your houses. You vill be delt with. So help me godt.

Considering some of my statements here, I wouldn't be too surprised to get a knock on my door sometime in the near future. I'm sure there will be some sort of trumped up terrorist charge and my right of habeas corpus will be eliminated.

Soon after 911 I got pulled over for a minor traffic violation. The cop asked me some very strange questions. My sur name has a somewhat Arabic sound to it, even though it's from English/French origins. He really wasn't too bright. That's part of the danger with the Patriot Act. In the wrong hands, it could be used incorrectly.

You'll get your habeas corpus, alright...... When that dig you out of a mass grave for "troublemakers".

No offense, I am not a Bush Backer, but that's a seriously errononeus charge, and if it is true, where is your proof? If it is indeed true, where is the evidence?..Take a look at Abramoff, Scanlon, Ney, Reed, DeLay, Frist... and, of course, the recent war-profiteering of Halliburton/KBR and Big Oil.

Take a look at Abramoff, Scanlon, Ney, Reed, DeLay, Frist... and, of course, the recent war-profiteering of Halliburton/KBR and Big Oil.

Yeah, they are definitely some rats in the hay loft, but making the assumption that the president would take us to war in order to increase profits for oil companies is as bad as assuming that Hussein had ties with Al Qaeda simply because he has backed other terrorists...pretty loose association..What I am asking for is proof..hard evidence, and then I will be the first person to call for impeachment. Cheney's direct association with Halliburton makes that the one charge you have cited as likely, still no proof, but that one I will concede.

that Chalabi is still meeting w/ Cheney and NeoCon leadership even though we KNOW he falsified evidence, gave intel to Iran, ad nauseum

The proof could be in Cheney super secret energy meetings. Energy... yet another problem made worse by this administration.

Why don't you explain why oil prices are so high, oil company profits are at record highs, yet the country we invaded is, what, the #2 biggest oil producer? And, don't blame it on Katrina; prices spiked prior to it. Also don't go into the there's not enough refineries bs, because oil companies themselves have been shutting them down to help inflate their prices.

You think the connections of this administration to Big Oil, GWB being a big-time failure himself at the game, and the record profits are purely a coincidence?

The proof could be in Cheney super secret energy meetings. Energy... yet another problem made worse by this administration.

Why don't you explain why oil prices are so high, oil company profits are at record highs, yet the country we invaded is, what, the #2 biggest oil producer? And, don't blame it on Katrina; prices spiked prior to it. Also don't go into the there's not enough refineries bs, because oil companies themselves have been shutting them down to help inflate their prices.

You think the connections of this administration to Big Oil, GWB being a big-time failure himself at the game, and the record profits are purely a coincidence?

I agree, yet here's a thought, the oil companies are taking advantage of another situation with us in Iraq at the moment to further raise prices. My point is, I don't think the president of this country, regardless of party, would use their power as commander-in-chief for that purpose. I think Bush is a buffoon, and he does have previous ties to big oil, but the profits may in fact be purely coincidental. There is so much better fodder for picking on Bush, Mike Brown being a perfect example. As I stated previously, if what you have purported is indeed true, and is proven, I will be the first to call for impeachment hearings. I just can't believe that...it is a bit if a stretch.

Why do you think then that they been so steadfast about refusing to release any details whatsoever about Cheney's secret energy cabal?

Texas Energy, the CA Energy Rip Off and Dick Cheney's FERC refusing to give up its minutes to the CA PUC. You may think of it as buffoonery but it is far more sinister.
the whole 'hide behind populist "I didn't know-isms" ' was perfected by Reagan's crew in regards to Iran-Contra.

Why do you think then that they been so steadfast about refusing to release any details whatsoever about Cheney's secret energy cabal?

I have yet to see proof that he HAS a secret energy cabal, everything in this post is merely conjecture and association, when I see proof, I will be happy to join in the criticism of dumb and dumber. I may even lead the charge..

and then compare them with any of Cheney's Pre VP Energy quotes in reference to Iraq. Then compare to PNAC's clearly stated plan. Really easy to connect the dots.In some speeches all Cheney did was change the wording from "Iraq is the Prize"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051021/wl_afp/usdiplomacypowell

I have yet to see proof that he HAS a secret energy cabal, everything in this post is merely conjecture and association, when I see proof, I will be happy to join in the criticism of dumb and dumber. I may even lead the charge..You're not aware of the Cheney Energy Task Force?



Documents turned over in the summer of 2003 by the Commerce Department as a result of the Sierra Club’s and Judicial Watch’s Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force, contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as two charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and “Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.” [...]

[...]With the advice of his close friend and largest campaign contributor, Enron CEO, Ken Lay, Bush picked Vice President Dick Cheney, former Halliburton CEO, to head this group. In 2001 the Task Force formulated the National Energy Policy (NEP), or Cheney Report, bypassing possibilities for energy independence and reduced oil consumption with a declaration of ambitions to establish new sources of oil.

The Bush Administration’s struggle to keep secret the workings of Cheney’s Energy Task Force has been ongoing since early in the President’s tenure. The General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, requested information in spring of 2001 about which industry executives and lobbyists the Task Force was meeting with in developing the Bush Administration's energy plan. When Cheney refused disclosure, Congress was pressed to sue for the right to examine Task Force records, but lost. Later, amid political pressure building over improprieties regarding Enron’s colossal collapse, Cheney's office released limited information revealing six Task Force meetings with Enron executives.

http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/8.html

You're not aware of the Cheney Energy Task Force?

http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/8.html

That's hardly the same thing as a conspiracy involving a secret group. I agree Cheney is power hungry and very spiteful towards the democrats, but it seems the author of that paper is trying to draw some unfounded conclusions....hard evidence my friend, hard evidence, a dress or something.. :D

That's hardly the same thing as a conspiracy involving a secret group. I agree Cheney is power hungry and very spiteful towards the democrats, but it seems the author of that paper is trying to draw some unfounded conclusions....hard evidence my friend, hard evidence, a dress or something.. :DHello troll, you didn't know about it but having heard about it you make the snap decision that it's nothing, not a soiled dress or nuffin'. Uh huh uh huh uh huh uh huh!!!

Cheney's done his best to keep it secret, and he's been pretty successful at keeping it under wraps. The evidence that has come out is pretty damn damning.

From that article, Retired Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, right-hand man for 16 years and Powell's chief of staff at the State Department, comments about the skewed decision-making at the Wh. Brent Scowcroft doesn't even recognize the current incarnation of Cheney as the same man he worked with under GHWB.

Heck, until very recently, GWB didn't know the difference between Kurds, the Shias, and Sunnis.


The Bush administration "made decisions in secret, and now I think it is paying the consequences of having made those decisions in secret. But far more telling to me is America is paying the consequences," Wilkerson said.

"You and I and every other citizen like us is paying the consequences, whether it is a response to (Hurricane) Katrina that was less than adequate certainly, or whether it is the situation in Iraq, which still goes unexplained."

He added: "So you've got this collegiality there between the secretary of defense and the vice president, and you've got a president who is not versed in international relations and not too much interested in them either.

"And so it's not too difficult to make decisions in this what I call Oval Office cabal, and decisions often that are the opposite of what you'd thought were made in the formal process."

He said the "Cheney-Rumsfeld cabal" is influenced by the business world and that Cheney was a member of the "military industrial complex."

"How much influence on their decisions? I think a lot -- in how much the decisions reflect their connections with the cartels and the corporations and so forth, I think a lot. I think the president, too," Wilkerson said.

What a little libby fest. Start a thread about liars and then prove your expertise in the field. Anyone who questions your questionable sources is dismissed as a troll. Maybe the reason you guys can't recognize the truth is you have listened to Democratic leaders for too many years? The current crop are real winners.

What a little libby fest.All that's missing is Scooter.

What a little libby fest. Start a thread about liars and then prove your expertise in the field. Anyone who questions your questionable sources is dismissed as a troll. Maybe the reason you guys can't recognize the truth is you have listened to Democratic leaders for too many years? The current crop are real winners.

I'm with you snake, this thread is roughly as ridiculous as KP's rants earlier today. Total bait for the title, pats on the back all around. Sometimes I wonder why I post here.

Silas

What a little libby fest. Start a thread about liars and then prove your expertise in the field. Anyone who questions your questionable sources is dismissed as a troll. Maybe the reason you guys can't recognize the truth is you have listened to Democratic leaders for too many years? The current crop are real winners.

I'm with you snake, I try to question unreliable information from second rate journalistic hacks who use conjecture and speculation to espouse their own political agendas, and I'm a troll. In medicine, we don't rely on speculation, we use evidence based guidelines to properly care for and treat our patients. Again, Give me real CONCRETE evidence, DNA samples or tape recordings, Actual memos....not just the faint report that a journalist SAW some paperwork...provide it to us, I'm pretty intelligent, I can make up my own mind.

In medicine, we don't rely on speculation, we use evidence based guidelines to properly care for and treat our patients.Try diagnosing a patient when he barricades himself in a room and won't let you in.

It's well-known Cheney had a top-secret Energy Task Force. Why the need to keep such a thing secret?

Try diagnosing a patient when he barricades himself in a room and won't let you in.

Obviously, that would make him a liberal Democrat.

Obviously, that would make him a liberal Democrat.I wanted to think that was funny, I really did, but it was too obvious. Try again.

Because when you are on the Right, there is no Wrong. It's just not possible.

Well then there was Reagan. Reagan above all was a pragmatist. That enabled him to get in front of the nation and apologize for the Iran-Contra fiasco that was on the verge of scuttling his Presidency. Unlike bush, Reagan had a feel for people, and a respect as well.

Would Congress have authorized the use of force if they had been presented with ALL the information that was available? Bush claims that they were given the same intel, but they weren't. This is another lie. Dick Cheney made many unprecidented trips to the CIA and coerced and concocted the intel. Clinton didn't have this intel. Congress and the American people weren't given the dissenting opinions this administration threw out. Bush and the WHIG group painted their own picture to meet their pre-election agenda.

How could William Jefferson Clinton have had the same intel as Bush if the lions share of it was developed after 911? This is another lie.

George Bush, Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Rumsfled all manipulated the American people with the fear of the "mushroom cloud" in their runup to war. They knew this was false, yet they still went out and promoted the "mushroom cloud" on evey Sunday talk show that would host them. They knew the aluminium tubes were too small to use as centrefuges. They knew the Niger docs were forged, yet Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and Powell all kept spreading the fear of the "mushroom cloud."

How could ALL four causes for war: WMDs, Chem/Bio, Nuke Program, UAVs all be found false? Statistically speaking this is impossible. This was not a simple intelligence failure. This was how the intelligence was interpreted and manipulated.

The intel was manipulated, and dissenting opinions were ignored, because of the agenda the Bush administration came with to the White House. The members of the Project for a New American Century hold high ranking positions within the Bush administration. Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, John Bolton...etc,.all members of PNAC, brought their agenda of attacking Iraq and disposing of Saddam to this administration. They used 911 as their excuse to enact their agenda.

This alone is an egregious abuse of the trust of the American people. Bush selected these people and is ultimately responsible. He is also ultimately responsible for taking this country to war. They misled Congress and the American people into this unnecessary war.

Bush and the Buck stops here!

Excuse me?

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." --Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by: -- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by: -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." -- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..." -- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" -- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

That's hardly the same thing as a conspiracy involving a secret group. I agree Cheney is power hungry and very spiteful towards the democrats, but it seems the author of that paper is trying to draw some unfounded conclusions....hard evidence my friend, hard evidence, a dress or something.. :D
As ridiculous as this thread is...and it makes one's brain leak like a sieve. This internal energy task force is something that might be worth debate.

The Washington Post has recieved a document and has written a story about the task force and who met and who did not meet with the V.P.'s group. The supreme court has ruled that since Cheney said that only governmental officials met in creating the plan...that he is protected by executive priviliage...however this document may debunk this and may start the kettle warming up again...something that the president doesn't need...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10045043/

The rest of this thread just needs to go away.

I have yet to see proof that he HAS a secret energy cabal, everything in this post is merely conjecture and association, when I see proof, I will be happy to join in the criticism of dumb and dumber. I may even lead the charge..

The maps of Iraq oil wells that were part of the energy meeting were part of what, explain that please, what was it 1 year, 2 years before we went to war?

From today's Washington Post:


Document Says Oil Chiefs Met With Cheney Task Force

By Dana Milbank and Justin Blum
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, November 16, 2005; A01


<NITF>A White House document shows that executives from big oil companies met with Vice President Cheney's energy task force in 2001 -- something long suspected by environmentalists but denied as recently as last week by industry officials testifying before Congress.

The document, obtained this week by The Washington Post, shows that officials from Exxon Mobil Corp., Conoco (before its merger with Phillips), Shell Oil Co. and BP America Inc. met in the White House complex with the Cheney aides who were developing a national energy policy, parts of which became law and parts of which are still being debated.

In a joint hearing last week of the Senate Energy and Commerce committees, the chief executives of Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp. and ConocoPhillips said their firms did not participate in the 2001 task force. The president of Shell Oil said his company did not participate "to my knowledge," and the chief of BP America Inc. said he did not know.



full article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501842.html