I read this on CNN.com a few minutes ago. Who is this guy? Seems well respected. What will this type of call do for the growing voices that want the troops to come home. More importantly, will it cause Republicans who are fence sitting on the issue to call for similar (I doubt exact) measures?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/murtha.iraq/index.html

BT

I wonder why he hates America so bad?

I read this on CNN.com a few minutes ago. Who is this guy? Seems well respected. What will this type of call do for the growing voices that want the troops to come home. More importantly, will it cause Republicans who are fence sitting on the issue to call for similar (I doubt exact) measures?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/murtha.iraq/index.html

BT
Wheweeeee...this could get interesting

of course...Hastert's remarks we're rather predictable...


Democratic leaders have adopted a policy of cut-and-run. They would prefer that the United States surrender to the terrorists who would harm innocent Americans."

remind me again who it is that's blowing themselvesup in Iraq, and what they had-if anything- to do w/9**?

"Flawed policy wrapped in an illusion."


"I resent the fact that on Veterans Day, they criticized Democrats for criticizing them," Murtha said. "This [the war] is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion. The American public knows it, and lashing out at critics doesn't help a bit. You've got to change the policy. That's what's going to help the American people. You need to change direction."
Murtha -- who recently visited Iraq's Anbar province -- said it is Congress' responsibility to speak out for the "sons and daughters" on the battlefield, and relayed several emotional stories from soldiers recovering at Bethesda's Walter Reed Medical Center.

"I tell you, these young folks are under intense activity over there, I mean much more intense than Vietnam," he said. "You never know when it's going to happen."

Wheweeeee...this could get interesting

of course...Hastert's remarks we're rather predictable...


remind me again who it is that's blowing themselvesup in Iraq, and what they had-if anything- to do w/9**?

They've dusted off Ole Dick Cheney and wheeled him out for this one.

"What we're hearing now is some politicians contradicting their own statements and making a play for political advantage in the middle of a war," Cheney said. "The saddest part is that our people in uniform have been subjected to these cynical and pernicious falsehoods day in and day out.

"The president and I cannot prevent certain politicians from losing their memory, or their backbone. But we're not going to sit by and let them rewrite history. We're going to continue throwing their own words back at them."

Why does he hate politicians?

Why does he hate politicians?
Why do they hate the English language? On top of all the other contradictions, and insanity-for a while the US was run by Bush, D*ck, and 'Col*n' :rolleyes:;)

Murtha's retort: "I like guys who've never been there that criticize us who've been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done."

Murtha's retort: "I like guys who've never been there that criticize us who've been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done."

Seems like Murtha is taking the let's cut our losses side. I saw a reporter on CSPAN the other night who based his assessment or his assessment was the military's assessment which was basically either:

1) Recognize this is a failure and get out now.
2) Commit to staying for another 5 to 10 years under similar circumstances to the ones we have now in the hope that we can get an Iraqi government/army to stand up to the insurgency and then cut our losses.

Seems like the way public opinion is going #2 is less and less of an option which makes #1 the wiser of the two choices. Something clearly has to change or we're going to lose this war just like we lost Vietnam. Massive military superiority doesn't mean you'll get the desired political outcome.

There should be an option #3 if the adminstration really thought this was an absolutely vital effort in the war on terror. And that is to institute a draft and double or triple the number of troops on the ground in Iraq to see if we can really suppress the insurgency.

Seems like Murtha is taking the let's cut our losses side. I saw a reporter on CSPAN the other night who based his assessment or his assessment was the military's assessment which was basically either:

1) Recognize this is a failure and get out now.
2) Commit to staying for another 5 to 10 years under similar circumstances to the ones we have now in the hope that we can get an Iraqi government/army to stand up to the insurgency and then cut our losses.

Seems like the way public opinion is going #2 is less and less of an option which makes #1 the wiser of the two choices. Something clearly has to change or we're going to lose this war just like we lost Vietnam. Massive military superiority doesn't mean you'll get the desired political outcome.

There should be an option #3 if the adminstration really thought this was an absolutely vital effort in the war on terror. And that is to institute a draft and double or triple the number of troops on the ground in Iraq to see if we can really suppress the insurgency.

I think this situation is clouded by a lack of any real strong information from there. We hear stories every day of bombings and death but there is nothing on any positive progress. If I believed that were the actual case, I would be for pulling back and using our own bombs to pacify the area and maintain a hair trigger for any further provocation from ANY terrorist activities from ANY Islamic group ANYWHERE. There are enough indications that the situation isn't quite as hopeless as it is being painted that, I am encouraged to give it a bit more time. I don't really have a deadline in mind but I think that if by the end of next year, there isn't a real change in the overall view, I would be for the afore mentioned withdrawal to fortress America and destruction upon our enemies from afar. We still have all those missiles don't we? We don't need to keep them forever.

I think this situation is clouded by a lack of any real strong information from there. We hear stories every day of bombings and death but there is nothing on any positive progress. If I believed that were the actual case, I would be for pulling back and using our own bombs to pacify the area and maintain a hair trigger for any further provocation from ANY terrorist activities from ANY Islamic group ANYWHERE. There are enough indications that the situation isn't quite as hopeless as it is being painted that, I am encouraged to give it a bit more time. I don't really have a deadline in mind but I think that if by the end of next year, there isn't a real change in the overall view, I would be for the afore mentioned withdrawal to fortress America and destruction upon our enemies from afar. We still have all those missiles don't we? We don't need to keep them forever.
Well Snake-IIRC, the Senate just past a bill (dispite furor from the WH) requiring a report to Congress/Senate on the state of Iraq every 90 days...I'll need to look it up....It's a good thing they passed this now that we've already been there for what-2 yrs :rolleyes:

Murtha's retort: "I like guys who've never been there that criticize us who've been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done."

Oh no he didn't??? He didn't just play the military war veteran smackdown on Cheney!

Priceless!

Bush and the buck stops here!

This administration should have re-read Tom DeLay's comments about sending US troops to Bosnia before they send our men and women into Iraq.

"History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace."
--Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

We still have all those missiles don't we? We don't need to keep them forever.

This all goes back to whether this was a wise decision in the first place. I'm sure everyone agrees democracy, etc. spreading to the islamic world would be great. The problem as I saw it all along was trying to do it at the end of a barrel of a gun. Think about how much we more secure we would be if the money we've spent in Iraq would have been used to develop our intelligence capacity and actual security efforts at home. As a regular train commuter I'm still amazed that there hasn't been a Madrid-type attack here. As far as I can tell there is almost nothiing to stop one once terrorists are in the country and we all know getting into the country isn't a problem.

When I turn on the news all I can think is what a waste; of lives, money, prestige, and any kind of post 9/11 sympathy in either west or islamic world. This has so far just been a massive miscalculation that shows little to no sign of swinging the other way.

I think this situation is clouded by a lack of any real strong information from there. We hear stories every day of bombings and death but there is nothing on any positive progress. If I believed that were the actual case, I would be for pulling back and using our own bombs to pacify the area and maintain a hair trigger for any further provocation from ANY terrorist activities from ANY Islamic group ANYWHERE. There are enough indications that the situation isn't quite as hopeless as it is being painted that, I am encouraged to give it a bit more time. I don't really have a deadline in mind but I think that if by the end of next year, there isn't a real change in the overall view, I would be for the afore mentioned withdrawal to fortress America and destruction upon our enemies from afar. We still have all those missiles don't we? We don't need to keep them forever.

Your blase take on this (lets wait another year) will cost us probably 100 more American lives and perhaps 2000 more casualties. Moreover, you speak as if you know as much as Murtha may. He sees all of the reports, the good the bad, all of it. His access to information along with his ACTUAL EXPERIENCE seem to leave him as SLIGHTLY more qualified to respond than you.

Really. Shameful. I can't imagine being that cavalier wiht human life.

What's one more year going to get us? If anything, if you're really interested in staying, make if for more like 8-10 years. One more year will only likely show incrimental changes.

I agree in essence with what you're saying. Just want to put the American casualties & wounded in perspective. Almost 100 were killed in October 2005 alone.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/images/oif-chart.gif
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/images/oif-chart2.gif
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/images/oif-chart3.gif

...on THIS guy. Cheney's already started questioning his loyalty.
If there's a God, why doesn't he smite these a-holes?

...on THIS guy. Cheney's already started questioning his loyalty.
If there's a God, why doesn't he smite these a-holes?

There's no God.

...on THIS guy. Cheney's already started questioning his loyalty.
If there's a God, why doesn't he smite these a-holes?

What is really amazing to me is that they have now re-newed the old, "If you're not with us, you're not Patriotic" attacks on the critics of the war. I think I even heard Cheney make mention of this about Murtha, and how he is edging towards not being patriotic. How can you say that about someone who has done the following:

1.) Served his country
2.) Fought for his country in a war
3.) Further dedicated his life to public service as a Rep.

The whole attack the messenger business is getting old, and obviously, it's not working for them any longer, the public sees through their little charade as of late. It's still amazing to me that they're attacking just the people, they are still not addressing the message, just the messenger.

The other thing that fries my ass is the constant barrage from the right against dems saying that they don't support the troops, that they cheer when our troops get killed in Iraq, and things like that. How is wanting to bring them home anti military? I don't get it. The right says send them into harm's way, and we're pro military. We love the troops. The left says bring them home, and we're the bad guys? I just don't understand that logic.

I'm going to be so much better a president for having been at the CIA that you're not going to believe it.

I can tell you this: If I'm ever in a position to call the shots, I'm not going to rush to send somebody else's kids into a war

I think I'd be a better president because I was in combat.

(G.H.W. Bush)

I think guys who served (Murtha) and commanded generally have higher respect for the kids taking the bullets and bombs. They tend to use their blood a little more judiciously than the Corporate lackey Chickenhawk Division running the show. Since this whole war was/is fought over a sham, is it cut and run or is it,"I'm not wasting another precious American life over this B.S.?"


and to summarize why this dolt should have listened to his father.

America is never wholly herself unless she is engaged in high moral principle. We as a people have such a purpose today. It is to make kinder the face of the nation and gentler the face of the world.

clearly not following in his fathers footsteps

I'm going to be so much better a president for having been at the CIA that you're not going to believe it.

I can tell you this: If I'm ever in a position to call the shots, I'm not going to rush to send somebody else's kids into a war

I think I'd be a better president because I was in combat.

(G.H.W. Bush)

I think guys who served (Murtha) and commanded generally have higher respect for the kids taking the bullets and bombs. They tend to use their blood a little more judiciously than the Corporate lackey Chickenhawk Division running the show. Since this whole war was/is fought over a sham, is it cut and run or is it,"I'm not wasting another precious American life over this B.S.?"


and to summarize why this dolt should have listened to his father.

America is never wholly herself unless she is engaged in high moral principle. We as a people have such a purpose today. It is to make kinder the face of the nation and gentler the face of the world.

clearly not following in his fathers footsteps

In spite of your doubts, should we be succesful in bringing an end to the kind of mentality that breeds these terrorist activities, would the face of the world not be gentler?

In spite of your doubts, should we be succesful in bringing an end to the kind of mentality that breeds these terrorist activities, would the face of the world not be gentler?
Your odds of that are about the same as boycotting air... Unless you go the ol' Roman route--and crucify anyone who looks at a citizen of the US wrong-which would make us no better than *them*.

Your odds of that are about the same as boycotting air... Unless you go the ol' Roman route--and crucify anyone who looks at a citizen of the US wrong-which would make us no better than *them*.
Hey don't MOCK the boycott!!!! Air is killing you with every breath.
You air sucking surrender monkey!

Hey don't MOCK the boycott!!!! Air is killing you with every breath.
You air sucking surrender monkey!
Get a job & get off the street hippy.

let's see:

our little adventure in Iraq is the best recruiting tool Al Qaeda has had in decades.since our actions have INCREASED 'this mentality that breeds..."

terrorism is up worldwide

hmm Israel's been dealing with this for HOW Long?

I'd say that we're heading in the right direction and should just 'stay the course'. W will not only be out of office but most likely pushing up daisies and possibly the US will have run itself bankrupt trying tomeet these lofty ends.