Just watching CNN, they have the "Situation Room" on. Guess who's on, you got it, one John Kerry....now, I don't have anything against him...he's a vet and I respect that..but AGAIN, you have the democrats saying something stupid...He just said...."if I knew then, what I know now, I would not have voted for the war"....DUH....Most republicans would not have voted for the war with the knowledge now present regarding the intel....flip-flop again I guess...and they wonder why so many people don't vote for them...

Most republicans would not have voted for the war with the knowledge now present regarding the intel
I have YET-to hear anything to that effect from any admin GOP.

I do believe the term is "yes man"

Just watching CNN, they have the "Situation Room" on. Guess who's on, you got it, one John Kerry....now, I don't have anything against him...he's a vet and I respect that..but AGAIN, you have the democrats saying something stupid...He just said...."if I knew then, what I know now, I would not have voted for the war"....DUH....Most republicans would not have voted for the war with the knowledge now present regarding the intel....flip-flop again I guess...and they wonder why so many people don't vote for them...

Sorry dude, your argument holds 0 water in this case.

I don't hear anything coming from the Republicans except holding the party line about the war now. I haven't heard of a one of them saying that they wouldn't have voted for the war knowing what they know now. Good try at fabricating something that isn't there.

People will vote for some democrats, wait until 2006 my friend.

Sorry dude, your argument holds 0 water in this case.

I don't hear anything coming from the Republicans except holding the party line about the war now. I haven't heard of a one of them saying that they wouldn't have voted for the war knowing what they know now. Good try at fabricating something that isn't there.

People will vote for some democrats, wait until 2006 my friend.

Of course all of the republicans are going to hold the line...that was predictable, my point is that almost no one..including republicans/democrats/indy's, ANYONE, would have voted for the war knowing what we know now...The public would never stand for it...A lot of people, neo-cons included think that we were deceived regarding the war....The point was that he's stirring the pot, possibly for another election run by pointing out the glaringly obvious, and sounding like a moron doing it. The point is hindsight is always 20/20 and most intelligent people realize that...by stating something that inane on national TV, he just sounds like an idiot. BTW, Dems would hold the line too if their boy was in office...I've gotten so fed up with the two parties...I still have my GOP membership, but I am considering joining the American Reform Party....STRONGLY considering..

]Name one neocon who thinks they were deceived.

]Name one neocon who thinks they were deceived.

I never said deceived, that would imply an intentional lie, and I still don't believe that GW deliberately lied to us, I believe the intel was simply wrong. Woodward even said there was a conversation between GW and Tenet just prior to the war, GW asked "Are you sure about this?" and Tenet replied "Absolutely". Even Kerry didn't say that we were lied to, he said we were ALL misinformed. I think almost any pol would not have voted for the war had we known the intel was false. That is my point...you don't need to highlight the obvious. Where's Teddy when we need him?

The difference being...that when asked the same question George Bush has said that knowing what he knows now...he would have done the exact same thing. Now we can all say...what a stern leader that makes him...but I would like a bit of introspection...if not going in...how about the way we went in...how about a different plan for the aftermath, how about stopping the looting, establishing law and order first...and not as somekind of after thought.

That is what most who supported the war based on the original premise are finding hard to believe...and that is the group that he should be trying to hold serve with...instead he is going after people that were only on board for political expediancy and fear. Talk to the people--say that tremendous mistakes were made--ask for another opportunity with some fresh thinking and some new blood--to make it work. Spouting the same tired rhetoric is not going to bring the people that could support the war back into the fold...because his actions present the same tired tactics that have put into the quagmire in the first place--clean house--outline a NEW plan--come and talk to the American people...most will still listen.

"Senator, when I receive new information I evaluate it and, if appropriate, change my opinion accordingly. It makes wonder what you do with new information."

I never said deceived,...A lot of people, neo-cons included think that we were deceived regarding the war....These are your words.

If we trippled the number of troops in Iraq next month, how long would you be willing to leave them there to acheive whatever goal you hve in mind? I believe that putting more people there is only acceptable because people believe that would hasten the end of the conflict. As I see it, the only way this conflict tis going to end for us is with the establishment of a central government strong enough and with broad support that will allow them to control the situation. that seems to be the plan that is in place and progressing. Iraqis are being trained and the numbers of Iraqi military and police are being increased as quickly as possible to do just this. There will be another election in December to finalize the government. This President and his administration still believes in what he is doing, doesn't believe they have been a failure or that the criticism is accurate. He was given a second term because most of us believed in it as well and there was no alternative plan on the table, there still isn't. We have three more years of his administration and conduct of this war and then we will be free as a nation to change course or cut and run as the electorate of this country sees fit. At that point, success or failure will be firmly established in our public minds but till then, he doesn't owe apoligies or acknowledgment of failure that would only serve to undermine his own plans and the people who are executing them.

If we trippled the number of troops in Iraq next month, how long would you be willing to leave them there to acheive whatever goal you hve in mind? I believe that putting more people there is only acceptable because people believe that would hasten the end of the conflict. As I see it, the only way this conflict tis going to end for us is with the establishment of a central government strong enough and with broad support that will allow them to control the situation. that seems to be the plan that is in place and progressing. Iraqis are being trained and the numbers of Iraqi military and police are being increased as quickly as possible to do just this. There will be another election in December to finalize the government. This President and his administration still believes in what he is doing, doesn't believe they have been a failure or that the criticism is accurate. He was given a second term because most of us believed in it as well and there was no alternative plan on the table, there still isn't. We have three more years of his administration and conduct of this war and then we will be free as a nation to change course or cut and run as the electorate of this country sees fit. At that point, success or failure will be firmly established in our public minds but till then, he doesn't owe apoligies or acknowledgment of failure that would only serve to undermine his own plans and the people who are executing them.
Snake...I know you will continue to believe what ever it is you believe fervently so I will just say this. Whether you care to admit it or not...the president is ultimately responsible to the people not just on the first tuesday in november every four years but every day. His numbers DO MATTER again, you won't admit this but they do...he cannot be an effective president and move the country in any positive direction with out strength from the electorate. The election...is a long time ago...and I know he wishes that were not the case...but more and more people are not caring about what happened in Novemeber...they do care about what is happening today...on the ground. And today on the ground another 55-80 got blown apart in Iraq...and that is fact.

If we put a million men and women in that country...it would take a draft...we would have to really call it a war, Congress would really have to approve it and we would win...quickly.

Anything short of that is a death by a thousand cuts. And is not acceptable to myself.

As it stands right now, the Bush administration is a monolith of incompetance rivaled only by their pigheadness to not admit that having people blow themselves up all the time and having our troops blown up by neanderthals because we can't secure major roads is not acceptable. I repeat...fight a war to win the war...or stay home and play GI Joe.

I understand your frustration and share it to a large degree. As to the President, I can also understand that his principles are what are guiding him here. The American public opinion are offering him two options, immediate and unconditional withdrawal, or as you wish, nuke the bastards. That nuke thing is an overstatement but the destruction you wish to rain down would be as complete. While I'm fer it, it is a bad option at this point.

If this President is wrong he, will be proven to be so, his reputation will be so soiled that people will feel the need to spit after mentioning his name. He knows that and still follows his faith in it in the face of this kind of withering criticism. The upside of him being right and you being wrong is so bright that I am willing to give him the opportunity to complete his task.

I have listened to the critics and the strident and virulent lies being told today make him look better to me. He has NOT answered in kind. He has recently spoken out against the about face of some and the effect it has on the war effort and the moral of our people in theater. You live in a different world than I, most of your associates are more liberal in their political views. I live in red neck country, pickup driving, beer drinking good ol' boys. We are the ones whos'e sons and daughters fill the ranks of the military whether through volunteering or the draft. Most of us have been there done that. We don't see this the same way you guys do.

I have the same fears and concerns that you have about this war. I believe that we are approaching a crossroads there. The transfomation to an Iraqi controlled government and conduct of most of the fighting is probably going to take place next year. That is my personal opinion, formed by watching all the same events that you have watched. It isn't some talking points from the neocons, it is my opinion. It is also my opinion that there will be some more prison scandals when this transformation takes place, when it takes place.....if it takes place. ;)

First...I work on a campus with one of the largest groups of reserves, guardsman and ROTC in the area...by far. Fayettnam is just to the south...and toothbrushes are still considered to be the mark Aristocracy in parts that I tend to ride my bike in. My fellow students can typically have some military experience (2 marines in my current class...had a west pointer last semester)...so this is not the liberal bastion that say...the chapel hill surrender monkeys are.

Secondly...if the president is wrong...his status will be the least of my concerns. My concerns are for the country...and if he is wrong it will be the country that suffers. He will return to his comfortable ranch in Crawford and occasionally be asked a question or two, seen playing a round of golf with dad, or going to a state funeral.

The country cannot afford the direction we are currently heading...and asking him to shake up his incompetant administration...is not asking for the world...only the acknowledgement that as of yet we have still yet to be greeted as liberators.

The greater problem that I have is that Republicans say that they are for letting the troops win...for not allowing the bureaucrats in Washington dictate policy...but that is what has happened. Wars are fought to be won...not to be stalemated by a bunch of neanderthols with a Macgyver fixation creating weapons out of matches and sand. This is a low tech insurrgency...and the only way to defeat people with sticks...is to have more people with m-16s. And because it is low tech...that is why the Iraqi people continue to be a source of frustration to me. They could end this tomorrow if they took a stand and wanted their freedom.

Mark my words...that the closer this goes to election the more you are going to hear people from your side of the aisle talk about peace with honor and Iraqinization. AND it did not have to be that way...but for a few stubborn Washington officials that decided to play games instead of make real war.

.............http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/Cartoons/11-18-2005.gif

First...I work on a campus with one of the largest groups of reserves, guardsman and ROTC in the area...by far. Fayettnam is just to the south...and toothbrushes are still considered to be the mark Aristocracy in parts that I tend to ride my bike in. My fellow students can typically have some military experience (2 marines in my current class...had a west pointer last semester)...so this is not the liberal bastion that say...the chapel hill surrender monkeys are.

Secondly...if the president is wrong...his status will be the least of my concerns. My concerns are for the country...and if he is wrong it will be the country that suffers. He will return to his comfortable ranch in Crawford and occasionally be asked a question or two, seen playing a round of golf with dad, or going to a state funeral.

The country cannot afford the direction we are currently heading...and asking him to shake up his incompetant administration...is not asking for the world...only the acknowledgement that as of yet we have still yet to be greeted as liberators.

The greater problem that I have is that Republicans say that they are for letting the troops win...for not allowing the bureaucrats in Washington dictate policy...but that is what has happened. Wars are fought to be won...not to be stalemated by a bunch of neanderthols with a Macgyver fixation creating weapons out of matches and sand. This is a low tech insurrgency...and the only way to defeat people with sticks...is to have more people with m-16s. And because it is low tech...that is why the Iraqi people continue to be a source of frustration to me. They could end this tomorrow if they took a stand and wanted their freedom.

Mark my words...that the closer this goes to election the more you are going to hear people from your side of the aisle talk about peace with honor and Iraqinization. AND it did not have to be that way...but for a few stubborn Washington officials that decided to play games instead of make real war.

Points well taken. One thing I'd like to clarify though, I am not concerned for the Presidents well being. My analogy was to point to the fact that he understands the stakes for the country and for himself on a personal level. He isn't staying with what he believes because he doesn't care about either but rather because he does care and believes he is right. In spite of my own desire to see that country leveled and depopulated, I think he just may be right. I admire his courage and character to be able to stand in this storm. If he is wrong, his legacy will be much as I predicted. If he is right, he will still be portrayed as a buffoon who got lucky. He just may be a truely great man, and then, maybe not. :)

In their own words...

http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW10-06-04.jpg

The difference being...that when asked the same question George Bush has said that knowing what he knows now...he would have done the exact same thing. Now we can all say...what a stern leader that makes him...but I would like a bit of introspection...if not going in...how about the way we went in...how about a different plan for the aftermath, how about stopping the looting, establishing law and order first...and not as somekind of after thought.

That is what most who supported the war based on the original premise are finding hard to believe...and that is the group that he should be trying to hold serve with...instead he is going after people that were only on board for political expediancy and fear. Talk to the people--say that tremendous mistakes were made--ask for another opportunity with some fresh thinking and some new blood--to make it work. Spouting the same tired rhetoric is not going to bring the people that could support the war back into the fold...because his actions present the same tired tactics that have put into the quagmire in the first place--clean house--outline a NEW plan--come and talk to the American people...most will still listen.

"Senator, when I receive new information I evaluate it and, if appropriate, change my opinion accordingly. It makes wonder what you do with new information."

In this TMB, we agree...

These are your words.

I know, after re-reading my original post I realized that I had mis-spoke, my apologies.

Fair enough.

The Downing Street memo makes it plain that intel and facts were "fixed around the policy."


C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.

Silly, silly. Should I retort with the words of the libs? All of whom said many of the same things when it was politically expedient. I like my cartoon better. It's more original :D

The "In Their Own Words" simply illustrates how deceptive, or plain stupid, the guys in the driver's seat were about Iraq.

Silly, silly. Should I retort with the words of the libs? All of whom said many of the same things when it was politically expedient. I like my cartoon better. It's more original :D
Well as to the 1st part...the GOP did while WJC was in office as well...and as to your 2nd part-it's the RTP of the last 5 yrs summed up in wat 3 cartoon frames.


Why don't you people get something done already?? You've been running the fed gov't with a MAn-dATe for what 5 or 6 yrs&you GOPrs still have yet to get any of the policies that you paraded in your election campaigns really implemented?