will the libs change their tune so she doesn't look stupid, um, I mean not in lockstep with the other libs? She also views success in Iraq as important to Amerika! I mean America. Gees, you libs here are out of touch with your party! LOL!!!

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Hill sez immediate withdrawal from Iraq would be mistake</td></tr> <tr><td> THE ASSOCIATED PRESS </td></tr> <tr><td> <!-- Component: NYDailyNews : component/story/picture.comp --> <table align="right" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="10" width="50"> </table> <!-- Component: NYDailyNews : component/story/picture.comp --> RYE BROOK, N.Y. — Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said Monday that an immediate U.S. withdrawal from Iraq would be “a big mistake.” While professing “the greatest respect” for Rep. Jack Murtha of Pennsylvania, the ex-Marine who called for a troop pullout last week, Clinton said, “I think that would cause more problems for us in America.” On the other hand, she said, the administration’s pledge to stay in Iraq “until the job is done” amounts to giving the Iraqis “an open-ended invitation not to take care of themselves.”

The right approach, Clinton suggested, would be for the U.S. to await Iraq’s Dec. 15 elections for a clue about how soon the Iraqis can take over.

“Until they vote for a government I don’t know that we will have adequate information about how prepared they are,” she said. “Then we have to tell the new government, ‘We’re not going to be here forever, we are going to be withdrawing our young men and women and we expect you to start moving toward stability.’ ... They have to know we’re not going to be there forever.” “Right now Iraq is tottering on the balance,”

Clinton said. “It will matter to us if Iraq totally collapses into civil war, if it becomes a failed state the way Afghanistan was, where terrorists are free to basically set up camp and launch attacks against us.”

Clinton, a Democrat who is running for re-election to the Senate and is viewed as a possible presidential candidate in 2008, managed a few swipes at President Bush while saying, “This is not to me a partisan political debate.”

“I think we have to face up to the problems that we’re confronting because of poor decision making by the administration,” the senator said. “But this is our president for the next three years. My view is we have to work together to fix these problems.” “None of us wants to see a failure in Iraq,” she added.

“That is too dangerous for America. So we have to try to make this as successful as possible, having already recognized the numerous mistakes that were made by the administration. We are where we are. Let’s try to make it as successful as we can. Let’s protect our young men and women, bring them home with honor as soon and as quickly as possible.”

A call seeking comment from the White House was not immediately returned.

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will the libs change their tune so she doesn't look stupid, um, I mean not in lockstep with the other libs? She also views success in Iraq as important to Amerika! I mean America. Gees, you libs here are out of touch with your party! LOL!!!
Steam do you have some kinda tracking device on hillary?

NTTAWWT

will the libs change their tune so she doesn't look stupid, um, I mean not in lockstep with the other libs? She also views success in Iraq as important to Amerika! I mean America. Gees, you libs here are out of touch with your party! LOL!!!

She's not a republican which means she actually has her own thoughts, and doesn't need to march lockstep with the party if she disagrees with them. Unlike the guys from the GOP.

first they use Bill to justify their stance, and now Steam's using Hitlery?!? way too funny.

will the libs change their tune so she doesn't look stupid, um, I mean not in lockstep with the other libs? She also views success in Iraq as important to Amerika! I mean America. Gees, you libs here are out of touch with your party! LOL!!!

Among those of us who dare to disagree with the current administration, there exist several schools of thought re how to handle the situation in Iraq. Chief among them is the We Broke it So We Bought it (Apologies to Mssr. Powell) school of thoght. We UnPatriots, as Cheney and Bush (until yesterday) would you believe, did not agree with the rationale for war, or now recognize that we were misled about the reasons for going into Iraq. However, we also recognize our moral responsibility (as a nation) to stay and fix the mess that we created. I know this one may be hard for you to understand, Steam, so imagine the following hypothetical:

Say you had a kid who went into a liquor store and tried to steal a fifth of bourbon. On the way out, it slipped out of his pocket and shattered on the floor. Your son ran away, leaving the poor liquor store owner to clean up the mess and eat the loss.

Now, at the time this happened, you were across the street, having just purchased your weekly copy of the National Review, holding a sign demanding the abrogation of Roe v. Wade. You are talking to a schizophrenic homeless man, imploring him to get a job, rent a flat, and trying to convince him of the merits of trickle down economics. As engaged as you are in your efforts, you see what your son did across the street.

As a responsible parent and a moral person, you know that you have to go into the store, pay for the damage, and deal with your son when he gets home.

See, this is how some of us feel. We f---ed up by going in. But it would be irresponsible and morally reprehinsible for us to walk away. We'll pay for the damage, and we'll deal with those rascally neocons neocons at home.

Nice little allegory. Now the Dems are moral? LOL!!! Good one.

will the libs change their tune so she doesn't look stupid, um, I mean not in lockstep with the other libs? She also views success in Iraq as important to Amerika! I mean America. Gees, you libs here are out of touch with your party! LOL!!!

Of course, she's running for president at a conservative evangelical. Heck, she might even switch parties. Her plan is basically this:

1. Appear to be conservative -- co-opt Republican positions like Bill did.
2. Appear to be religious.
3. Distinguish herself from other Democrats.
4. Keep the finger in the wind and adopt any popular sentiment that might get her elected.
5. All the while, keep winking at the urban social democrats who will support her no matter what words actually come out of her mouth, knowing that they're all lies to get elected.

Sound about right?

Nice little allegory. Now the Dems are moral? LOL!!! Good one.

Actually, Steam, I'm sure you did, but not from joy. You guys are good at that, you know. When the going gets rough, and people start calling your bull$hit, you poke fun, call people names, or "laugh" at the "insanity" of your opponent's position.

Did you laugh out loud when Bush said "We don't torture" while Cheney was asking congress for permission for the CIA to do just that? Did you laugh when Bush told us that Brownie was doing a heck of a job? Did you laugh when you learned that the Bush administration omitted the costs of our war from he budget proposal? Did you laugh when Bush stood on the deck of a carrier in front of a sign that said, "Mission Accomplished?" How about when Cheney, six months ago, predicted that the insurgency was in its last death throws? Or when he said "there can be no doubt that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?"

I can keep going . . . but I don't want you to wet your pants.

Why are you so cynical? ;) ;) ;)

Of course, she's running for president at a conservative evangelical. Heck, she might even switch parties. Her plan is basically this:

1. Appear to be conservative -- co-opt Republican positions like Bill did.
2. Appear to be religious.
3. Distinguish herself from other Democrats.
4. Keep the finger in the wind and adopt any popular sentiment that might get her elected.
5. All the while, keep winking at the urban social democrats who will support her no matter what words actually come out of her mouth, knowing that they're all lies to get elected.

Sound about right?
Did it get lonely on the high road fixed.:o

Did you join us again to talk about high minded policy and give us ethical dissertations about the policy issues of the day? If so this is a pretty grandiose opening salvo.

Did it get lonely on the high road fixed.:o

Did you join us again to talk about high minded policy and give us ethical dissertations about the policy issues of the day? If so this is a pretty grandiose opening salvo.

Do you think I'm wrong? I'd think that anyone watching closely would come to the same conclusion. Heck, she might even admit it.

Do you think I'm wrong? I'd think that anyone watching closely would come to the same conclusion. Heck, she might even admit it.
Nah-but those are general pointers that any politik-ian neo-con/lib or otherwise should follow if they want to win methinks.

Do you think I'm wrong? I'd think that anyone watching closely would come to the same conclusion. Heck, she might even admit it.
Just reveling in your high mindedness, basking in the light of your intellectual acuity and gaping at your remarkable clairvoyance.

Hillary's POV on Iraq is reasonable. What's the big deal?

“I think that would cause more problems for us in America.” On the other hand, she said, the administration’s pledge to stay in Iraq “until the job is done” amounts to giving the Iraqis “an open-ended invitation not to take care of themselves.”

“I think we have to face up to the problems that we’re confronting because of poor decision making by the administration,” the senator said. “But this is our president for the next three years. My view is we have to work together to fix these problems.” “None of us wants to see a failure in Iraq,” she added.

“That is too dangerous for America. So we have to try to make this as successful as possible, having already recognized the numerous mistakes that were made by the administration. We are where we are. Let’s try to make it as successful as we can. Let’s protect our young men and women, bring them home with honor as soon and as quickly as possible.”

it pretty clearly sets a track for changing the situation over there and getting the draw down while replacing our forces with Arab Nation forces. It's pretty well thought out and considering the Sunni's, Kurds and the Shia's are all asking for an exit plan from us, this is an oppoortune time to start. "Hey, they asked us to leave"

Just reveling in your high mindedness, basking in the light of your intellectual acuity and gaping at your remarkable clairvoyance.

Ok, I forgot that it was sarcasm day. You win.

Nah-but those are general pointers that any politik-ian neo-con/lib or otherwise should follow if they want to win methinks.

Maybe not. My observation, and maybe his primary issue for attack, is that Bush does exactly the opposite. He does what he damn well wants to do regardless of public opinion. Don't you think?

He does what he damn well wants to do regardless of public opinion. Don't you think?And he and his team sure are competent.

Appear to be conservativeYou mean like W?

Maybe not. My observation, and maybe his primary issue for attack, is that Bush does exactly the opposite. He does what he damn well wants to do regardless of public opinion. Don't you think?
Perhaps the issue to attack is your inability to see the reality of the political landscape set out before you. If Bush didn't care about public opinion (and for the life of my I can't begin to ascertain why anyone would say this was a good thing and espouse Democracy...ever again). Then why did Cheney give "the speech" yesterday. Why did he make nice with Murtha...turning down the tough Michael Moore talk of the press secretary? Because he does care...because it does matter...because his legacy matters and right now his legacy is in the crapper. I don't disagree with many of your sentiments about Hillary...only your failure to see it on the side you claim to have allegiance to because you like to win.

Then of course there is your devout claim to by the high priest of virtue on all things pertaining to the virtues of the intellegentsia...when you continually mop the floor for mud and then throw it out for all to see...only to come back later with your "what did I say?" mentality...

Perhaps the issue to attack is your inability to see the reality of the political landscape set out before you. If Bush didn't care about public opinion (and for the life of my I can't begin to ascertain why anyone would say this was a good thing and espouse Democracy...ever again). Then why did Cheney give "the speech" yesterday. Why did he make nice with Murtha...turning down the tough Michael Moore talk of the press secretary? Because he does care...because it does matter...because his legacy matters and right now his legacy is in the crapper. I don't disagree with many of your sentiments about Hillary...only your failure to see it on the side you claim to have allegiance to because you like to win.

Then of course there is your devout claim to by the high priest of virtue on all things pertaining to the virtues of the intellegentsia...when you continually mop the floor for mud and then throw it out for all to see...only to come back later with your "what did I say?" mentality...

It would be nice to get through a discussion without your going the personal attack route. The topic for discussion is Hillary, not me or my "inability to see the reality of the political landscape." Forget it.I hate this crap.Until you can engage in these discussions without personal attacks, I'm just not interested. There, is that what you wanted?

Back to NC.

"A frothy mix of a nal lube and fecal matter"

For some reason seems appropriate here

It would be nice to get through a discussion without your going the personal attack route. The topic for discussion is Hillary, not me or my "inability to see the reality of the political landscape." Forget it.I hate this crap.Until you can engage in these discussions without personal attacks, I'm just not interested. There, is that what you wanted?

Back to NC.

Time to take your ball and go home...
I weap everytime you do this. It hurts down to the fiber of my being when you invent personal attacks. So just remember to wipe your tears before you go home tonight and tell your wife how nasty wasty I was to you and how some people just don't play nice in the politics forum. Have it go like this...

"I was just spouting off with my vitriolic hatred of hillary calling her a cheat and a liar and someone had the audacity to be offended and called me on it...he's bad!" Then let her nestle you in her bosom while you cry it all out...never once coming to the conclusion...that you started it with your post...or that your inability to see that you exhibit the same tendancies that the rest of us mere mortals exhibit in this forum.

good riddance...again...may it be for the last time.

Of course, she's running for president at a conservative evangelical. Heck, she might even switch parties. Her plan is basically this:

1. Appear to be conservative -- co-opt Republican positions like Bill did.
2. Appear to be religious.
3. Distinguish herself from other Democrats.
4. Keep the finger in the wind and adopt any popular sentiment that might get her elected.
5. All the while, keep winking at the urban social democrats who will support her no matter what words actually come out of her mouth, knowing that they're all lies to get elected.

Sound about right?
...I'll vote for her.

Time to take your ball and go home...
I weap everytime you do this. It hurts down to the fiber of my being when you invent personal attacks. So just remember to wipe your tears before you go home tonight and tell your wife how nasty wasty I was to you and how some people just don't play nice in the politics forum. Have it go like this...

"I was just spouting off with my vitriolic hatred of hillary calling her a cheat and a liar and someone had the audacity to be offended and called me on it...he's bad!" Then let her nestle you in her bosom while you cry it all out...never once coming to the conclusion...that you started it with your post...or that your inability to see that you exhibit the same tendancies that the rest of us mere mortals exhibit in this forum.

good riddance...again...may it be for the last time.

Grow up.

Grow up.

Time to firmly ensconce yourself as the high minded one again...and cast your shadow downward on the rest of us.

I thought you said you were leaving...you promised... so be the bigger man...and leave.

Here are just two things for you to munch on...on your way out...the first is what you said during a thread that had dipped below your standard.

"Me, too. I get so annoyed with all the "indictment party" and "who lied" crap. I like discussing substantive politics, ideology, etc., not what the latest "gotcha" is. I hate that stuff."

Now I shall direct you to a thread you started just a couple of days later...
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=44893

In that thread you embarked on one of the LCD threads we had in quite sometime (and then mysteriously left the party, in what amounted to a drive by post and dash)

So which personality are you Fixed...are you the high minded stalwart that likes to talk about Voltaire over an Arturo Fuente OpusX and a snifter of Remy XO? Or are you the person that drops down to the dregs licking up drying rubbing alcohol out of the carpet and looking for half smoked cigarettes.

You can be both...just don't pretend to only be one or the other.