http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/04/BAG2LG1DML68.DTL

There's not nearly enough relevant information in the article to make a judgement.

The U.S. has 2% of the world's population and 70% of the world's lawyers. It isn't the quick releases that are the problem, it is the bloated legal community. We just need to close the law schools for about 10 years to thin down the herd.

We just need to close the law schools for about 10 years to thin down the herd. I've always thought controlled hunting could provide a good solution.

...controlled hunting...


F*ck that. Open season, Northern Wisconsin style.

"But the suit alleges that most of the families didn't receive manuals warning that "correct adjustment of the axle nuts or quick-release levers is vitally important to avoid an accident caused by loose wheels." The bikes were assembled by untrained Wal-Mart workers, according to the suit, and lacked adequate backup systems to keep front wheels in place."

If the buyers didn't get a manual, and if the forks didn't have lawyer tabs, then the suit is reasonable. LBSs have been passing out manuals with QR instructions since the 80s, and all bikes/forks sold as LBSs have lawyer tabs.

F*ck that. Open season, Northern Wisconsin style.Naw-that wouldn't be any fun at all.

I vote for Monty Python 'How Not To Be Seen' sketch *style*.

could get a bit messy though

"But the suit alleges that most of the families didn't receive manuals warning that "correct adjustment of the axle nuts or quick-release levers is vitally important to avoid an accident caused by loose wheels." The bikes were assembled by untrained Wal-Mart workers, according to the suit, and lacked adequate backup systems to keep front wheels in place."

If the buyers didn't get a manual, and if the forks didn't have lawyer tabs, then the suit is reasonable. LBSs have been passing out manuals with QR instructions since the 80s, and all bikes/forks sold as LBSs have lawyer tabs.

All valid points.

A real high percentage of people don't know how to use a quick release. My guess is that the majority of people who own department store bikes use the quick release like a wing nut. Even if they are provided with an owner's manual, my guess would be that few people actually take the time to read through the whole thing.

A real high percentage of people don't know how to use a quick release. My guess is that the majority of people who own department store bikes use the quick release like a wing nut. Even if they are provided with an owner's manual, my guess would be that few people actually take the time to read through the whole thing.


Well yeah but the user should still get the manual. If they don't read it, they don't use the QR correctly and there are no other pertinent uses then too bad for them.

A QR doesn't seem like a good spec. choice for a department store bike tough IMO.

The U.S. has 2% of the world's population and 70% of the world's lawyers. It isn't the quick releases that are the problem, it is the bloated legal community. We just need to close the law schools for about 10 years to thin down the herd.

Don't be to quick to jump all over the lawyers. It is the parents who seek out the lawyers. Remove them and the lawyers go out of business.

Classic case of slack a$$ parents going to Walmart for the cheapest bike they can find and since we all became to lazy to assemble them ourselves all the dept. stores have some kid do it. Did the parents not think to ask for a manual? Every kid in my area that has a dept. store bike has major problems with it and their parents are to lazy and stupid to do anything.

Sitting around blaming the lawyers just adds to the diversion of fault.

It is my job as a parent to look out for the well being of my child. A freakin QD is not an advanced piece of machinery and if someone can not figure out how to use it they should not be teaching their kids to ride a bike.

That website linked in the article referenced lass than 10 cases. GMAFB. Walmart must have sold millions of these POS bikes so 10 cases does not make for a "trend".

Whining A$$ B!tches the whole lot of them.

...A QR doesn't seem like a good spec. choice for a department store bike tough IMO.
I agree! And while we're at it:

No car should have more than 100 HP. Lord knows there are those that can't handle more. And anybody can just go down to the car dealer and buy one.

We also need to cat-proof microwaves. People will try to dry their cats, you know.

Coffee should no longer be hot. We'll get use to cold coffee and we don't want burn victims.

Ladders? NOT.

We could just dumb everything down to the lowest level and then we won't get sued.

TF

I agree! And while we're at it:

No car should have more than 100 HP. Lord knows there are those that can't handle more. And anybody can just go down to the car dealer and buy one.

We also need to cat-proof microwaves. People will try to dry their cats, you know.

Coffee should no longer be hot. We'll get use to cold coffee and we don't want burn victims.

Ladders? NOT.

We could just dumb everything down to the lowest level and then we won't get sued.

TF

Would you like a little sweeping hyperbole with your comparison? You can't operate a car without drivers training and a licence. The micorwave anology is just hyperbole to the point of being comical. The fact that a cup of coffee is hot when it's hot is far more readily apparent than how to use a QR correctly.

Speaking from a business perspective since consumers/users of department store bikes are less likely to understand how to use a QR correctly and may not read the manual it would be more cost effective and would reduce the companies exposure to potential troubles if they choose not to spec a QR for that specific application.

Did you read everything from my last post? I said they should provide a manual with the new bike so the newbies can learn how to use the QR. I said if the user fails to follow the manual then it's the users fault.

My LBS mentioned that a parent group was trying to get Walmart to remove bikes altogether. I wonder if this is the same suit.
True, a lot of parents need to be more responsible (remember all the parents jumping off cliffs on this board when someone complained about receiving a warning for riding too fast thru a school zone - keep your kids out of the street), but it wouldn't be a bad thing if dept store bikes had to be of a higher quality or if some of those sales were driven to the LBS.

Man, if I were hurt on a Walmart bike, I'd sue Walmart. Why the hell not? Walmart has more money than it knows what to do with.

I wouldn't advocate bringing a suit against your friendly LBS, but who cares about Walmart, the faceless corporation? Hey, it's the American way.

BTW, I am in law school and terribly bitter. It's finals week. :mad:

Man, if I were hurt on a Walmart bike, I'd sue Walmart. Why the hell not? Walmart has more money than it knows what to do with.

I wouldn't advocate bringing a suit against your friendly LBS, but who cares about Walmart, the faceless corporation? Hey, it's the American way.

BTW, I am in law school and terribly bitter. It's finals week. :mad:
A lawyer larva - already believing that the "deep pocket" rule should prevail over "just and fair". - TF

A lawyer larva - already believing that the "deep pocket" rule should prevail over "just and fair". - TF
Do they really have to teach that? *chuckle*

Speaking from a business perspective since consumers/users of department store bikes are less likely to understand how to use a QR correctly and may not read the manual it would be more cost effective and would reduce the companies exposure to potential troubles if they choose not to spec a QR for that specific application.

Agree completely. In fact, why do department store bikes have quick release hubs? These hubs were designed to save a racer 5-10 seconds during a race - an environment utterly foreign to department store bikes. That leaves marketing. But I've never heard a kid begging for quick release hubs on their bike. A puzzle - to me, anyway.

Better to put cheaper nuts on cheaper solid axles. Wal-Mart could hang a little card on the handlebar of these newly nutted bikes that says: "New for 2006: Theft-Proof Wheel Attachments!", then ask and surely get an extra 95 cents for each "newly improved" bike.

A lawyer larva - already believing that the "deep pocket" rule should prevail over "just and fair". - TFWalmart should get sued anyway just because it's evil.

the article is not very specific. Having been a shop wrench/owner for years I have seen plenty of department store bikes that were dangerous either by assembly or by the poor parts. I have seen "suspension" forks on these bikes where the dropouts were so poorly aligned that no quick release would generate enough force to safely clamp a wheel. The assembly is often comically bad. Backwards forks, spun on QR's and brakes that do not work at all are common. Just go to any store and you can find examples sitting on ther on display. You can even see examples at some LBS. Problem with bikes is they are relatively difficult to assemble properly and the the difference between a dangerous bike and a safe bike to ride is very difficult to discern by looking it over for someone with no or little experience. Customers do not want to pay for proper assembly, neither do the Walmart's. They pay by unit, somewhere around $7 a bike. A good assembler can make over $20 and hour, (They are generally contracted third parties.) They are slapping them together and the result is often a dangerous bike. It may be one out of ten that are dangerous but with the numbers they sell...many people will end up hurt.

We here on this board are bike people and understand the value and how to operate a quick release. The general public does not. The only place you see them is on a bike. If you haven't ridden a bike since you were a kid and now 20 years later you are buying one for your own child is it reasonable to expect you will know what you are looking at or how to work it? I think it is time for the cheap bike makers and the Walmarts of the world to get it right. Now the problem becomes can a cheap bike be safe and still cheap? I say nope. It will cost about $25 a bike to have them assembled properly by someone who knows what they are doing, or there needs to be a trained store person to inspect the final work and fix problems. Either way more cost and training.

The bikes could be made simpler but would they sell? Kids want a full susser and parents want to spend $100 bucks. The compromise is in the product and the assembly to make $$$$. I think it will be tough to prove but it is a fact.

Every kid in my area that has a dept. store bike has major problems with it and their parents are to lazy and stupid to do anything.Just curious as to what you mean by major problems? I always bought my kids cheap bikes and cannot say thay any had major problems. I never noticed that any of their friends bikes had major problems either. The bikes were heavy and took a lot of abuse. They were dropped often, jumped, riden into curbs and pot holes frequently, crashed into other bikes , left out in the rain, and just kept going. The only maintenance they got was fixing flats. I didn't even oil the chains more often that once a year.

If I had gotten my kids Colnago C40s, I bet the bikes would have been destroyed within a month.

Walmart should get sued anyway just because it's evil.
You're going to make a great judge someday! :-) TF

Parents lose.

I'm not siding with Wal-mart, it's just my guess that they have better lawyers. Besides, the stuff here sounds like serious childhood injury rather than serious maiming and death. Not to minimize their suffering, but there's nothing like loose body parts to sway a jury. And while there's nothing stated in this piece, it doesn't sound as if they're presenting as evidence any physical proof that the bike was poorly made. Any argument to assembly could be countered that the consumer messed with it.

There's also a bit of "lawyers, shut up your clients" object lesson going on here. In the last paragraph, Mom says she had to tighten the skewer almost every time he went for a ride. At this point, it hardly matters whether she knew how to do it properly or not, or whether there was something wrong with it in manufacture or assembly or not. By force of her own statement, she knew the bike was in an unsafe condition yet still allowed it's use. The cause of that condition is irrelevant and secondary to the willful negligence. If she didn't know the danger or didn't notice the defect, the burden shifts.

As for the numbers of victims, I bet the numbers end up working in Wal-Marts favor, at least if their statistician sharpens his pencil well enough. Eight kids out of the kajillions of bikes they sell? Lightening strikes more frequently. Yes, there are a lot more unreported incidents from Wal-Mart, and their assembly is lousy. But with good enough lawywers, the facts don't matter a bit.

By force of her own statement, she knew the bike was in an unsafe condition yet still allowed it's use. The cause of that condition is irrelevant and secondary to the willful negligence. If she didn't know the danger or didn't notice the defect, the burden shifts.
I agree. If the mother knew there was a problem, the fact that it was Walmart's fault originally does not give her a free ticket to put her son on it and say, "Well, there's something wrong with this bike and if he falls, it's Walmart's fault."

That's like if you saw a banana peel on the floor and chose to step on it anyway. Is it the fault of the person who threw it there that you fell?

I guess I'm just restating what dan said...

Parents lose.

I'm not siding with Wal-mart, it's just my guess that they have better lawyers. Besides, the stuff here sounds like serious childhood injury rather than serious maiming and death. Not to minimize their suffering, but there's nothing like loose body parts to sway a jury. And while there's nothing stated in this piece, it doesn't sound as if they're presenting as evidence any physical proof that the bike was poorly made. Any argument to assembly could be countered that the consumer messed with it.

There's also a bit of "lawyers, shut up your clients" object lesson going on here. In the last paragraph, Mom says she had to tighten the skewer almost every time he went for a ride. At this point, it hardly matters whether she knew how to do it properly or not, or whether there was something wrong with it in manufacture or assembly or not. By force of her own statement, she knew the bike was in an unsafe condition yet still allowed it's use. The cause of that condition is irrelevant and secondary to the willful negligence. If she didn't know the danger or didn't notice the defect, the burden shifts.

As for the numbers of victims, I bet the numbers end up working in Wal-Marts favor, at least if their statistician sharpens his pencil well enough. Eight kids out of the kajillions of bikes they sell? Lightening strikes more frequently. Yes, there are a lot more unreported incidents from Wal-Mart, and their assembly is lousy. But with good enough lawywers, the facts don't matter a bit.

I think it will really come down to:

1. Did the forks have lawyer tabs (I can't tell from the article).
2. Did the new owners receive an owner's manual that explains how to use a QR (it appears that some did not).

At least when I worked in shops front QRs also had these little orange warning labels attached to them that were supposed to only be removed by the owners.

Walmart also appears to have not been very responsive after the first few problems/injuries were reported.

I doubt Tulio Campagnolo invisioned cheap Chinese kids bikes when he invented the QR.

I'm curious how many on this thread actually have a bike from Wal-Mart? About 3 years ago I got a $150 bike from Wally for knocking around the neighborhood. The only thing I had to adjust (aside from getting the fit dialed in) was the headset, and it wasn't off enough to have been a problem for a long, long time. Is it the quality of my road bike? Of course not. Did I expect it to be? Of course not. Does it fit the bill for a casual, around the 'hood, fun bike? Sure it does. I would not have been in the least concerned for my child to ride it, much less myself. Like with cars, if you buy a Kia don't think it will be a Lexus. BTW, it has QR front hubs - they work just fine.

I'm curious how many on this thread actually have a bike from Wal-Mart? About 3 years ago I got a $150 bike from Wally for knocking around the neighborhood. The only thing I had to adjust (aside from getting the fit dialed in) was the headset, and it wasn't off enough to have been a problem for a long, long time. Is it the quality of my road bike? Of course not. Did I expect it to be? Of course not. Does it fit the bill for a casual, around the 'hood, fun bike? Sure it does. I would not have been in the least concerned for my child to ride it, much less myself. Like with cars, if you buy a Kia don't think it will be a Lexus. BTW, it has QR front hubs - they work just fine.
I have noticed that the bikes sold at the Target by me often have brakes adjusted so poorly, that they are really unsafe to ride. Target can't assume most people have the tools or ability to fix brakes and shouldn't sell bikes with brake levers that literally travel all the way to the handlebar without providing much stopping power.

"But the suit alleges that most of the families didn't receive manuals warning that "correct adjustment of the axle nuts or quick-release levers is vitally important to avoid an accident caused by loose wheels." The bikes were assembled by untrained Wal-Mart workers, according to the suit, and lacked adequate backup systems to keep front wheels in place."

If the buyers didn't get a manual, and if the forks didn't have lawyer tabs, then the suit is reasonable. LBSs have been passing out manuals with QR instructions since the 80s, and all bikes/forks sold as LBSs have lawyer tabs.

The last LBS that sold me a bike had me sign a form saying the sales man had gone over how to use the bike, including shift, use the QRs and other stuff -- not that I didn't already know that stuff. But it implies that bike shops are becoming aware of the problem and taking pro-active steps to assure rider safety and no law suits.

As for TurboTurtles comments about the coffee cup, there was actually a lot more to that McDonalds lawsuit than most news outlets picked up on. McDonalds insisted on brewing its coffee at 185 degrees, well above what most coffee is brewed at. McDonalds had also recieved more than 700 complaints about the temperature of its coffee, but refused to change it. The lady who got burned, suffered third degree burns on her thighs, abdomen and groin. She offered to settle with McDonalds for about $20,000 - the cost of all her medical bills. McDonalds said no, so she sued. The original verdict, which was like $20 million, was then thrown out and she got about $2 million - but McDonalds could have gotten out of it for a lot less.

I've never bought a bike for my kid from any X-Mart, simply because I do not have children. And besides, if I did they would only receive the Ye-Olde-Colonial "Hoop 'n Stick" swatting game (with a carbon shaft upgrade) until they learn to file for emancipation.

But that's neither hither nor thither, or even yon.

K-Mart: sucky retailer, dirty stores, builders of bad bikes. As a lad I would wander in with some bored friends and show them how easy it was to turn the handlebars (in threaded headsets) backwards ON EVERY SINGLE FLOOR BIKE. Go out and try it, no one will notice - and that's the bad part. Not even parents walking past, much less the employees or the "eye in the sky."

So parents, your kids got messed up - in a bike accident! I bet half you you skimped on the helmet or didn't bother to check if the cutest little future ER patient *ever* was wearing it. Plus, you had to tighten that sucker down (and I'm venturing, possibly improperly) after every ride. Hark back to our old bike days, with the banana seat Sting-Ray - you could ride it through a stack of burning televisions and come out with nary a misaligned headset. This is called Fate. It happens. It sucks, I know - lost my 2 front teeth in a bike accident too, looked like a good candidate for your "kiddy gore" page - but it's time to accept and move on. And as for that kid who now has "impaired cognative ability," I'd bet he's selling his adderall at school. Maybe now he can save up and get the bike that you cheapskated out of buying.

(Sigh...rant accomplished.)

Just curious as to what you mean by major problems? I always bought my kids cheap bikes and cannot say thay any had major problems. I never noticed that any of their friends bikes had major problems either. The bikes were heavy and took a lot of abuse. They were dropped often, jumped, riden into curbs and pot holes frequently, crashed into other bikes , left out in the rain, and just kept going. The only maintenance they got was fixing flats. I didn't even oil the chains more often that once a year.

If I had gotten my kids Colnago C40s, I bet the bikes would have been destroyed within a month.

I guess "major" maybe a strong word but what I have seen on a large percentage (maybe 75%) of discount store bikes is loose components. Handles bars, stems, headsets, QD, kick stands, seat post, etc. Slack chains are not uncommon. Most I have seen do have working brakes. At least until the bikes are left outside in the rain for a few months.

Given the right circumstance, any of these could cause a serious accident. Of course given a little attention any of these items could be corrected. Even when you buy a bike from a LBS they recommend you bring it back after 30 days and let them check the it out.

The fine article quotes an FSA representative who says that lawsuits over quick releases are a major reason that quick releases don't open up when you ride over a bump:
Eric Hjertberg, manager of new technology for Full Speed Ahead, an internationally respected bicycle component-maker, said quick releases on bicycles have generated at least as much litigation over the years as all other bicycle parts combined.

As a result, manufacturing standards have improved dramatically and, Hjertberg said, it is now very unlikely that one would release on its own or after hitting a bump. Other safety devices, such as notches on fork tips dubbed "lawyers lips," have been developed to prevent wheels from falling off in the event of quick-release lever malfunctions.

Moreover, the lawsuit alleges that Walmart is at fault for having untrained people who don't know about bikes assemble the bikes. If suits like this are successful, it could help LBS's compete effectively with Walmart to sell bikes by ensuring that all bicycle retailers have to employ skilled bicycle mechanics.

The story also reports that the bicycle manufacturer was recently fined $1.4 million for selling tens of thousands of bikes with defective forks: bad welds would break and the steerer tube would detach. Dynacraft knew about the defects but did not warn consumers. Details at http://studentweb.engr.utexas.edu/wogandm/cover.htm. Dynacraft also got into trouble for pedals that would fall off during normal use.

In short, this company seems to make piece of sh!t bicycles that have a long record of failing during normal use and the company has a record of failing to recall defective bicycles or warn consumers.

All in all, I don't see this as a case of abusive lawyers trying to shut down the bicycle industry, but of a legitimate complaint against lousy products and shoddy service.

My hope, as I wrote above, is that this will make it harder for WalMart to draw business away from legitimate local bike shops.

A real high percentage of people don't know how to use a quick release. My guess is that the majority of people who own department store bikes use the quick release like a wing nut. Even if they are provided with an owner's manual, my guess would be that few people actually take the time to read through the whole thing.

How true. I can think of 2 different people in the last few years that I've had to teach proper QR usage to. Both were intelligent people, one is a graduate student in an honors science program at a local college. IQ probably over 170, and he didn't have a clue....

How true. I can think of 2 different people in the last few years that I've had to teach proper QR usage to. Both were intelligent people, one is a graduate student in an honors science program at a local college. IQ probably over 170, and he didn't have a clue....

Several times every year I end up stopping people with dangling front QRs on the bike path. When I worked in shops I was constantly showing people how to use the QR on their own bikes. And these are adults. I don't think most kids should have QRs.

Where are the dad's voices on that shokbikes.org website? Every single accident story is being told from the woman.

Not sure what, but I think there might be a little more going on here than they want to say. On the shokbikes site they refer me to "girlbike.com" under safety tips on how to buy a bike. The first tip presented to me is "Don't go cheap." I wonder if those moms who are making all the complaints researched any of these 10 tips before they bought a bike at Wal-Mart. Maybe if they had educated themselves a little on what they were buying for little Johnny, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

This really sounds like a "MyChildWasHurtBecauseI'mSoIgnorantAboutTheToysIBuy ForThem" lawsuit case. Sad really.

Does this mean that I should have sued the company when I did a wheelie on my old BMX bike (w/o QR btw) when I was 8. All I remember is the wheel bouncing away from the bike- then the bike was over my head- put the wheel back on and rode home having learned not to do a wheelie unless the wheel was attached securely. Shouldn't parents be doing this somewhat regularly?

:confused:

This really sounds like a "MyChildWasHurtBecauseI'mSoIgnorantAboutTheToysIBuy ForThem" lawsuit case. Sad really.
That's exactly what this is.

BTW-don't forget the
multi-million dollar cup of cof** lawsuit here :rolleyes:

The U.S. has 2% of the world's population and 70% of the world's lawyers. It isn't the quick releases that are the problem, it is the bloated legal community. We just need to close the law schools for about 10 years to thin down the herd.

There are other ways to "thin down the herd", :D