First of all, Merry Christmas everyone!

My A ride is a 58cm S-Works Tarmac with a 130mm stem on it. I'm looking for a new frame for my commuter / gravel road / rain bike, and I like the look of the Surly Cross Check, and possibly the Pacer if it fits better.

I want to set this new bike up to have as close of a fit to my Tarmac as possible. I realize the geometry is very different, and that the style of bike is very different, but I want to get it close.

I'm very happy with the fit of my Tarmac, and I don't want the new bike to be any more than 5mm shorter in reach.

I'm quite long in the leg (830mm seat height) and have a bar drop of about 120mm so the longer head tubes on the larger frames will look slightly better, however they won't be too long to get my bars at the right height.

I'm looking for a second (and third, fourth etc) opinion of which frame and size is going to be best for me, based on geometry.

Current S-Works Tarmac
size...ST length (C-T)....Effect TT........STA.........HTA........BB drop
58............550..................582............ ..73.0........73.5.............68

Surly Cross Check
58............580.................580............. ..72.5..........72.0..........66
60............600.................600............. ..72.0..........72.0..........66

Surly Pacer
58...........580..................580............. ..73.0..........73.5..........72
60...........600..................590............. ..72.5..........73.5..........72


So looking at the Cross Check:
>The 58cm (with a 0.5 degree slacker STA) will be approx 5mm shorter in reach?
>So using a 130mm stem I'd have an overall reach about 5mm shorter than my Tarmac?

>The 60cm (with a 1.0 degree slacker STA) will be approx 10mm shorter in reach?
>So using a 120mm stem I'd have an overall reach about the same as my Tarmac?

Looking at the Pacer:
>The 58cm (same STA and HTA as the Tarmac) will be very similar
>The 60cm (0.5 degree slacker STA) with a 590mm TT will be about 5mm longer than the Tarmac, so with a 120mm stem will be about 5mm shorter in reach?

Thanks for your help!

Your analysis seems accurate, but don't forget to maintain adequate standover clearance and to compare the head tube length, taking into account the longer fork on a cross bike and the difference in the headset stack height. It's great to get the reach you want, but don't forget about handlebar height.

Reach can also be changed with handelbar selection in additional to stem length, unless you're unwilling to try another bar.

If you're planning on riding the bike as you say, definitely go for the CrossCheck. The extra tire clearance makes it the right choice for mixed surface riding. The Pacer has pretty good clearance for a road bike, by the CrossCheck will swallow just about any 700c tire out there, and tire choice = flexibility in 700C bikes. The longer stays and wheelbase and slightly slower handling are also good things for the uses you're talking about.

I don't think you need to worry about duplicating the exact fit of your road bike. I've found that all of my bikes have a different "right" position, which varies based on the design of the bike and how I ride it.

On my touring bike, I like a slightly more rearward saddle, less reach, and much higher bars. Cross bike gets a rearward saddle and less reach, with bars higher than the road bike but lower than the tourer.

Why the differences? First, on both bikes, my average cadence is lower, so the rearward saddle gets me more low-RPM power. Off-road, more weight on the rear wheel gives better traction when climbing. Less bar drop sacrifices aerodynamics for comfort on the touring bike, and puts less weight on the front wheel for better handling when front-wheel traction is iffy on the 'cross bike. I also like a shorter stem off-road, as a bit less leverage on the front wheel slows and lightens the steering a bit, and aids in putting the front wheel right where I want it. That's important when riding 32 mm tires in the dirt.

What's this add up to? Choose your frame size based on a couple of things:

1. If the bike's going to see a fair amount of off-road use, the smaller frame will give you more clearance in emergency dismounts. But...

2. The bigger bike will give you a more rearward position (a good thing, in this case) and more of the reach will be from the top tube, less from the stem. Also a good thing here.

3. If the bike's going to see some light-touring use, the bigger bike will have a longer head tube and less seatpost sticking out of the frame. Relative to the top tube, the saddle gets lower and the bars get higher. In other words, less drop. This is a good thing in this application.

Based on your description of this bike's use, it sounds like you're going to end up with a significantly less aggressive position than on your road bike (12 cm of drop is a pretty aggressive setup.) If that's true, the bigger bike is probably the way to go.

--Shannon

Maybe check out Soma? A little nicer tubing, better colors, longer tts.

http://www.somafab.com/geometry03.html

Maybe check out Soma? A little nicer tubing, better colors, longer tts.

http://www.somafab.com/geometry03.html

Built for strength and fun.

Built for strength and fun.


I agree with the Soma Doublecross option.. Since I am a happy owner of one.. Nce frameset!

I agree with the Soma Doublecross option.. Since I am a happy owner of one.. Nce frameset!

Soma:

I live in New Zealand, there is a Surly importer here but no Soma distributor (nor in Aus from what I can find.) I'd rather buy locally, so unfortunatly the Soma isn't really an option.

Plus I don't really *cough cough* like the color of the Double Cross :eek:

Soma:

I live in New Zealand, there is a Surly importer here but no Soma distributor (nor in Aus from what I can find.) I'd rather buy locally, so unfortunatly the Soma isn't really an option.

Plus I don't really *cough cough* like the color of the Double Cross :eek:

Well that pretty much seals it. So what size/model are you getting? I personally think a 13cm stem handles kind of sluggy and gets too much weight over the front wheel...

Well that pretty much seals it. So what size/model are you getting? I personally think a 13cm stem handles kind of sluggy and gets too much weight over the front wheel...

I'll order a red 60cm Cross Check, just waiting for the distributor to come back from Christmas holiday.

I personally like the feeling of a 130mm stem, on my Tarmac anyway. It makes the bike (to me) feel more balanced, espeically when cornering down hill.

I'll order a red 60cm Cross Check, just waiting for the distributor to come back from Christmas holiday.

I personally like the feeling of a 130mm stem, on my Tarmac anyway. It makes the bike (to me) feel more balanced, espeically when cornering down hill.

You may find you prefer a different setup on a mixed-surface bike. Many do. There's going to be enough different between your Tarmac and the CrossCheck that you'll almost be starting over. Use your existing bike as a guide, but let your body and the new bike tell you how to set it up, and don't think that it's wrong if it doesn't match your road bike.

--Shannon

You may find you prefer a different setup on a mixed-surface bike. Many do. There's going to be enough different between your Tarmac and the CrossCheck that you'll almost be starting over. Use your existing bike as a guide, but let your body and the new bike tell you how to set it up, and don't think that it's wrong if it doesn't match your road bike.

--Shannon

I've never owned a cross bike, but after a bit of research I found very few (ie: zero) cross bikes with long stems, 120mm seams to be about the max.

If "cyclocross" is a mix of "road cycling" and "mountain biking" then I figure my new bike will be a "cyclocrosscross" bike: half "cyclocross" and half "road." Or maybe "quartercross?"

Thanks for the help everyone. The importer doesn't get back to the office until the 9th, and I know there are no red 60cms in stock, so I'll be waiting a month or so anyway. In the meantime I have to ride my S-Works everywhere, even *cringe* in the rain. I briefly though about putting fenders on but then I realized the fashon police would conviscate my bike, unless of course I could find carbon fenders to match the Record jewelry.

I've got a wicked Campag-mano groupset to go on, and I'm going for the red and silver theme. Should be a cool bike.

I've never owned a cross bike, but after a bit of research I found very few (ie: zero) cross bikes with long stems, 120mm seams to be about the max.

If "cyclocross" is a mix of "road cycling" and "mountain biking" then I figure my new bike will be a "cyclocrosscross" bike: half "cyclocross" and half "road." Or maybe "quartercross?"

Thanks for the help everyone. The importer doesn't get back to the office until the 9th, and I know there are no red 60cms in stock, so I'll be waiting a month or so anyway. In the meantime I have to ride my S-Works everywhere, even *cringe* in the rain. I briefly though about putting fenders on but then I realized the fashon police would conviscate my bike, unless of course I could find carbon fenders to match the Record jewelry.

I've got a wicked Campag-mano groupset to go on, and I'm going for the red and silver theme. Should be a cool bike.

The "long and low" position of the modern road bike doesn't seem to work well when other than smooth dry roads are in the picture. Too much weight on the front wheel, for one thing. I find I prefer a more "between the wheels" position on mixed surfaces, with a bit more weight to the rear. This does a couple of things. One, it gets weight off the front wheel, which aids in the kind of precision line-picking that saves your rims., Also, when you do blow a line, or hit a rock you didn't see, a shorter front end seems to lift you up a bit less. And having more of your weight centered between the axles allows the longer chainstays to do what they do, which is to flex a bit more. If you've ridden captain on a tandem, that's the extreme example of what I'm talking about.

I doubt you'd even be able to fit useful fenders on your S-Works. There's not a lot of room around the brakes for the tires, let alone fenders. But if it's carbon fenders you want, check out the Gilles Berthoud CF fenders at

http://www.wallbike.com/Berthoud/fenders.html

On your CrossCheck, I "dry-ly" recommend SKS / Esge full fenders. Light, great coverage, well-nigh indestructable, and with break-away tabs on the fork stays, so if you wedge a rock between the fender and the tire, the fender pops out of the fork end, rather than throwing you over the bars. Of course, they're pretty ugly compared to hammered Honjos, but hey, they're gonna be covered in road gunk anyway, right? The only other downside to fenders is, on rainy group rides, everyone's gonna want to suck your wheel.

Enjoy the CrossCheck, they're great bikes.

--Shannon

I doubt you'd even be able to fit useful fenders on your S-Works.


On your CrossCheck, I "dry-ly" recommend SKS / Esge full fenders.
Enjoy the CrossCheck, they're great bikes.

--Shannon


I was only kidding about fender for the S-Works, its too pretty of a bike to put fenders on :)

I've got some SKS fenders that were on my old daily-rider. I think I'll need new supports for the Surly but thats not a big deal.

I can't wait to get this bike together! I removed the lever blade pin from my Chrous Ergos tonight, slipped the pin punch and cracked the resin lever body...crap! Now I have to find a right hand Ergo body :(

Will Chorus cranks work on the Cross Check with the Chorus bb? Seems like they might smack the c-stay.

Will Chorus cranks work on the Cross Check with the Chorus bb? Seems like they might smack the c-stay.

I'm actually going to use an Ultegra 10 crank / BB. I havn't used a vernier but my eyeball tells me it should work fine. A guy at work has a Cross Check that had Ultegra 9 double cranks and BB on at one stage, worked fine. The Cross Check chainstays are pretty long, there seams to be room for both tyres and chainrings.