Is there any reason super-stiff, carbon-soled shoes could lead to knee pain? It's the only thing I've changed...

1) Cheap carbon-soled shoes (Perfomance "Cat-1 Galibier), used 4 mos. = Knee pain
2) (took 5 weeks off / light duty due to other, unrelated injury)
3) Sidi Zeta, nylon sole, used 5 mos. = no knee pain.
4) Sidi Genius 5 Carbon, used 2 mos. = knee pain, same place as 1).

Could the stiffer shoes be the cause, or are they more likely exacerbating an existing problem?

Knee pain is on right leg only, both times, and on the anterior, interior, lower portion of kneecap only. Climbing hard aggravates. Tender to touch, swells and becomes warm to touch after rides, but does not hurt, ache, or throb when not in use. Climbing stairs hurts, too.

Legs were checked for length discrepancy; <2mm.
Pedals are Speedplay zero. Adjusting float does not seem to effect. Same pedals, cleats moved between shoes.

First, it is not likely the stiffness of the sole by itself. Possibilities would be a different sole thickness, resulting in an effectively lower saddle; left-right cleat placement such that your foot has moved laterally relative to the BB; cleat rotation such that your foot can't assume a natural position; rolling of the ankle is restricted in the stiffer shoe; coming back too fast (too much volume/intensity) after your injury/layoff.

Is there any reason super-stiff, carbon-soled shoes could lead to knee pain? It's the only thing I've changed...

1) Cheap carbon-soled shoes (Perfomance "Cat-1 Galibier), used 4 mos. = Knee pain
2) (took 5 weeks off / light duty due to other, unrelated injury)
3) Sidi Zeta, nylon sole, used 5 mos. = no knee pain.
4) Sidi Genius 5 Carbon, used 2 mos. = knee pain, same place as 1).

Could the stiffer shoes be the cause, or are they more likely exacerbating an existing problem?

Knee pain is on right leg only, both times, and on the anterior, interior, lower portion of kneecap only. Climbing hard aggravates. Tender to touch, swells and becomes warm to touch after rides, but does not hurt, ache, or throb when not in use. Climbing stairs hurts, too.

Legs were checked for length discrepancy; <2mm.
Pedals are Speedplay zero. Adjusting float does not seem to effect. Same pedals, cleats moved between shoes.


I am long time user of Sidi shoes, having used recently both the Ergo 1 Carbon and the Genius 5 Carbon in addition to several pair with the nylon soles. I highly doubt your knee pain is a result of the carbon fibre in the G5 sole. And that is only a thermoplastic carbon section, not full CF weave. I don't think the G5 Carbon sole is actually that much stiffer than a regular G5 or Zeta sole. I did a few weeks in Shimano R215 shoes last year, and my feet could not take it the soles were WAY too stiff for me, it was back to Sidi for the rest of my racing season.

I'm with Kerry, triple-check both your cleat position. With Speedplay, you don't have to worry about rotation so much as lateral position of the cleat and fore-aft position. With your description of pain, I would guess that your cleats could be possibly mounted a bit too far in, giving your a wider stance on the pedals, or possibly mounted too far foward, effectively reducing your saddle height and putting more load on the quadriceps muscle group. Anyway, break out the ruler and the marking pen and verify that the cleats are in the same position.

Also, the cleat stack on your shoes might actually be higher with the G5 Carbons. Depending on the generation of Zeta shoes you own, the cleat may have sat in the recession (this was the first Millennium sole). The difference would be small but potentially a problem.

They are the zetas with the Millenium II sole. I'll get out the tape measure and check the cleat position a few more times. I've always ran them as far aft as they can go, on both shoes, fwiw.

If they are a little too far forward, should I try raising saddle 2mm or something next? I'll do a few days with cleats repositioned, first, and see how that feels.

They are the zetas with the Millenium II sole. I'll get out the tape measure and check the cleat position a few more times. I've always ran them as far aft as they can go, on both shoes, fwiw.

If they are a little too far forward, should I try raising saddle 2mm or something next? I'll do a few days with cleats repositioned, first, and see how that feels.


Check your knee position in relation to your pedal when your foot is at 3 o'clock. Your knee should be slightly behind the pedal (very slightly). Odds are, either by raising the saddle, sliding the seat back 2 mm, or moving the cleat back 1-2 mm should do the trick. Since you only see this in one knee, make sure the cleats are in the same position and try sliding the saddle back about 2 mm for starters. I went through this recently, and I only had the rare knee issue. I moved the saddle back 2 mm and the "intermittant" pain has gone away.

I can raise saddle, but it is as far back in the clamp as it will go. I have a straight Thomson seatpost, and obviously would prefer not to buy a new one unless absolutely necessary -- expensive and the setback ones look funky, IMHO.

Why are you lead to the conclusion that this sort of knee pain is from cleats too far forward (as opposed to too far back, or whatever)?

Probably not caused by a stiff shoes, unless you don't strap them too tight and then somehow bend your straining lower foot wrong way because of that.

Is your forward flexibility excellent? If not, this may be a cause. read more from articles

http://www.kevinlippert.com/bikefit.php?show=1&CAmenuOpen=on

and

http://www.kevinlippert.com/bikefit.php?show=2&CAmenuOpen=on

I also might think your (unknown) other pain, that maybe makes you hold yourself in a just slightly different position to shelter that other pain and so you make it to come out in an other painful way. Very common.

Pretty even legs btw if difference is only -2 mm.

Thanks for the articles, I'll look 'em over. And, no, my forward flexibility is not all that great.

My other pain wasn't riding-related at all -- I severed the end of my thumb (a bit of bone included) while working on a fixed gear. Be careful with those things!

Yeah, don't think leg difference is part of equation here.

I can raise saddle, but it is as far back in the clamp as it will go. I have a straight Thomson seatpost, and obviously would prefer not to buy a new one unless absolutely necessary -- expensive and the setback ones look funky, IMHO.

Why are you lead to the conclusion that this sort of knee pain is from cleats too far forward (as opposed to too far back, or whatever)?

If you move the cleat back, your foot moves forward on the pedal. When your foot moves forward, your knee will move back. Has to do with angles, distance from point A (hip) to point C (foot) via B (your knee). It's fairly simple to prove while sitting in a chair, move your foot forward and then back (exaggerate the movement to see what happens), and watch what that does to the relative position of your knee.

Okay, that makes sense, and that's the type of imbalance that causes the type of knee pain I described in the OP?

patellofemoral syndrome (http://www.aafp.org/afp/991101ap/2012.html) or at least you are headed in that direction.

I have had it myself before when I switched pedals.

Try each of the following:

Raise you seat.

Try a varus or valgus sole insert (specialized sells them or make them yourself).

Move your cleat position.

Move your seat aft.

Increase the play in your pedals to their loosest setting for awhile.

Ibuprofen after rides helps too.

Don't keep pushing it until you fix it.

thanks! Good info.

Do you use inserts? I switched to the Sole Insert that is heated and conforms to your foot. It changed my foot position inside my shoe and gave me sore knees. Switched back to Superfeet and the pain went away.

Okay, that makes sense, and that's the type of imbalance that causes the type of knee pain I described in the OP?

Yes, that can potentially cause the pain you are encountering. One other thing, I live off Alleve. I get the Kirkland (Costco) version as an anti-inflamitory (doesn't work on forums though... BWAHAHAHA). Due to some other issues, my doc has me taking them daily (2 in the am and if I need them, 2 in the pm). It's the over the counter version of Naproxin, and 2 alleve are almost = 1 naproxin. Perscription Naproxin is stronger than IB, but if you have a sensitive stomach, it won't work. One big Coscto bottle was about $12 I seem to recall, and it lasts a long time, even with daily use.