De Rosa can't even compare to the top Wilier models (longer history, more Pro Tour team sponsorship), why does De Rosa warrant its' own thread and Wilier does not?

I don't know. I've never heard of Wilier, but then, I'm really not an equipment freak. I agree that DeRosa is not nearly as popular as it used to be, but IMHO, they still make some very nice bikes. Some of them are just wierd, e.g. the Tango, but most of their line is excellent quality. I'm riding a steel frame I bought new in '94. Every time I get "new bike fever", I eventually come to my senses & say, "But I like my DeRosa so much." The only issue I've ever had with it is the paint. It's not bad, but it's not the quality you'd get from a custom frame maker.

Tell me about the Wilier. Honestly, I've never heard of them.

I don't know. I've never heard of Wilier, but then, I'm really not an equipment freak. I agree that DeRosa is not nearly as popular as it used to be, but IMHO, they still make some very nice bikes. Some of them are just wierd, e.g. the Tango, but most of their line is excellent quality. I'm riding a steel frame I bought new in '94. Every time I get "new bike fever", I eventually come to my senses & say, "But I like my DeRosa so much." The only issue I've ever had with it is the paint. It's not bad, but it's not the quality you'd get from a custom frame maker.

Tell me about the Wilier. Honestly, I've never heard of them.

Started in 1906, sponsor of both Cofidis and Lampre Pro Tour teams for 2006, Marco Pantani set the Alpe d' Huez climbing record on a Wilier in 1997, go here www.wilier.it or www.veloimports.com.

De Rosa can't even compare to the top Wilier models (longer history, more Pro Tour team sponsorship), why does De Rosa warrant its' own thread and Wilier does not?

Let's dissect what you wrote. You claim that Wilier has a longer history. De Rosa has been building bikes without stop for 52 years. Wilier, as a brand was founded prior to De Rosa, but has not produced bicycles continuously since its foundation. In fact they do not arrive at 52 combined years of production. So I would tend to think that your statement is not correct. Especially if you think that the new management has absolutely nothing in common with Dal Molin, the founding owner of the company. Furthermore, Dal Molin was neither a framebuilder nor a racer, but rather an industrialist. There is also absolutely no tie-in between the Dal Molin period of construction and the latest one.

I am then somewhat lost as to the importance of the pro sponsorship. Or are you perhaps intimating that we are to equate sponsorship with quality? If so, have you ridden a Decathlon bike recently? Perhaps you were trying to suggest that quantity of sponsorship is somehow related to the choice of the team's riders? If this were the case, we would be seeing ex-pros streaming to buy new Peugeot, Raleigh, Gitane bikes.

A reality check therefore comes up with the following: it all boils down to the truth that De Rosa is the real thing and Wilier is a wannabe. De Rosa makes something and Wilier is nothing more than an assembler. De Rosa is directly linked to the history of a single man who has been instrumental to the development of the way top-of -the-line racing bikes have been built for the last 40 years. Wilier is linked to a number of investors who are using their money to buy somebody else's history and craft to be used to market their copy-cat products.

You may feel that the present Le Roi or similar Wilier product is now better than some equivalent De Rosa product. This may even possibly be true today, it has however not been the case over the last 40 years. Especially when Wilier had De Rosa build some of the Wilier pro team bikes in the 80's! With regards to the 2005 bikes, in my view, it is all a matter of opinion and as a long-time De Rosa user, I must admit that I would personally choose a Time or Colnago over either a De Rosa or Wilier today.

Do not forget that Eddy Merckx, when not constrained by contract to any bike builder personally chose De Rosa as his frame builder of choice and then later asked De Rosa to help him set up his own bike factory production. It is also quite telling that when you go to visit De Rosa today, you regularly see former pros going to pick up new De Rosa bikes that they pay for out of their own pockets. I can't say that I have ever seen or heard of any former pro buying himself a Wilier.

wilier bikes are sold at least in France, and some sponsored pros ride Wilier. Thats why you've never heard of them. I believe some had
special features (like all bikes) from reading online.

Read all about it...you'll probably never own one.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/teamtech04.php?id=tech/2004/probikes/gerolsteiner_wilier

Let's dissect what you wrote. You claim that Wilier has a longer history. De Rosa has been building bikes without stop for 52 years. Wilier, as a brand was founded prior to De Rosa, but has not produced bicycles continuously since its foundation. In fact they do not arrive at 52 combined years of production. So I would tend to think that your statement is not correct. Especially if you think that the new management has absolutely nothing in common with Dal Molin, the founding owner of the company. Furthermore, Dal Molin was neither a framebuilder nor a racer, but rather an industrialist. There is also absolutely no tie-in between the Dal Molin period of construction and the latest one.

I am then somewhat lost as to the importance of the pro sponsorship. Or are you perhaps intimating that we are to equate sponsorship with quality? If so, have you ridden a Decathlon bike recently? Perhaps you were trying to suggest that quantity of sponsorship is somehow related to the choice of the team's riders? If this were the case, we would be seeing ex-pros streaming to buy new Peugeot, Raleigh, Gitane bikes.

A reality check therefore comes up with the following: it all boils down to the truth that De Rosa is the real thing and Wilier is a wannabe. De Rosa makes something and Wilier is nothing more than an assembler. De Rosa is directly linked to the history of a single man who has been instrumental to the development of the way top-of -the-line racing bikes have been built for the last 40 years. Wilier is linked to a number of investors who are using their money to buy somebody else's history and craft to be used to market their copy-cat products.

You may feel that the present Le Roi or similar Wilier product is now better than some equivalent De Rosa product. This may even possibly be true today, it has however not been the case over the last 40 years. Especially when Wilier had De Rosa build some of the Wilier pro team bikes in the 80's! With regards to the 2005 bikes, in my view, it is all a matter of opinion and as a long-time De Rosa user, I must admit that I would personally choose a Time or Colnago over either a De Rosa or Wilier today.

Do not forget that Eddy Merckx, when not constrained by contract to any bike builder personally chose De Rosa as his frame builder of choice and then later asked De Rosa to help him set up his own bike factory production. It is also quite telling that when you go to visit De Rosa today, you regularly see former pros going to pick up new De Rosa bikes that they pay for out of their own pockets. I can't say that I have ever seen or heard of any former pro buying himself a Wilier.

It is rumored that Pantani's last words were "amore Wilier ciao..."

I really don't see the relevance of "De Rosa makes something and Wilier is nothing more than an assembler", so De Rosa's hands are guided by angels and Wilier uses jigs, fixtures, and molds etc. to create their bikes? That is as dumb as the people that hold on that Campy actually works better (and are not willing to admit that it is just more chi chi due to the materials).
Get over yourself, pal...

Comes down to it de rosa is a better quality controlled bike then willier. Both are great bikes, but IMO I would rather ride a de rosa.

You know, you're right. I think I should sell my bike.
Start your own thread and see how much participation you get.

Do not forget that Eddy Merckx, when not constrained by contract to any bike builder personally chose De Rosa as his frame builder of choice and then later asked De Rosa to help him set up his own bike factory production.

I'm somewhat perplexed..........why would a company who builds bikes in order to sell them for a profit go and help someone (even Merckx) build another company who will later on then become a direct competitor? I'm not questioning the validity of your knowledge because you are obviously well versed in Italian bike history, it just seems odd to me that a company would do that unless of course De Rosa has a controlling interest in Merckx cycles.

Cheers

I'm somewhat perplexed..........why would a company who builds bikes in order to sell them for a profit go and help someone (even Merckx) build another company who will later on then become a direct competitor? I'm not questioning the validity of your knowledge because you are obviously well versed in Italian bike history, it just seems odd to me that a company would do that unless of course De Rosa has a controlling interest in Merckx cycles.

Cheers
Alot of companies do some sort of work like that. Take giant, they are one of the largest production companies out there yet most of there produced bikes have other names on them. Now that is different then situation between derosa and merkx, but Merkx has such a long history with the company probably on a personal level. We know friends help friends, and bike building is just like any trade out there, in that it is handed freely down to those who the original owner finds worthy. There is probably some sort of financial kick back going on too, such as percentage of each frame etc......

You know, you're right. I think I should sell my bike.
Start your own thread and see how much participation you get.

Looks like I'm getting some participation...
BTW, Wilier produced bikes from 1906-1952 and then folded. The name was purchased and production restarted in 1969 to the present (owned by the same family in that time period). So for the guy that claimed that De Rosa had production more years total, they must do math differently in your neck of the woods (De Rosa=52 years, Wilier=87 years).

Comes down to it de rosa is a better quality controlled bike then willier. Both are great bikes, but IMO I would rather ride a de rosa.

You've viewed process control procedures for both? Intimately familiar with the quality standards of each? If you had some concrete evidence I could accept that, but your statement has me all warm and fuzzy, much like a blanket...

I'm somewhat perplexed..........why would a company who builds bikes in order to sell them for a profit go and help someone (even Merckx) build another company who will later on then become a direct competitor? I'm not questioning the validity of your knowledge because you are obviously well versed in Italian bike history, it just seems odd to me that a company would do that unless of course De Rosa has a controlling interest in Merckx cycles.

Cheers

Framebuilders often build for bike companies. De Rosa built for Chiorda, Faema, Benotto, Wilier, Merckx etc... There is plenty of proof of this. What you need to understand is that De Rosa is not an industrial company. It is simply a small family run shop. They do not have professional management or specially trained personnel. Everything is run/managed by the De Rosa family and they are happy with this as long as they can maintain their present lifestyle. They cannot therefore grow beyond a certain level and maintain this same structure. With limited production possibilities, whether you build everything in your name or for others makes no difference. So to build for another company is not a major problem, especially if there is a financial benefit. A commercial company like Wilier on the other hand only requires capital and good management to diversify and grow. Their growth possibilities are in fact limitless. In such a case, to build for another company would indeed be counterproductive.

Have you ever heard of the framebuilders PelÃ*, Marnati, Billato...? All have built numerous frames for pro teams that carried other names. Billato frames have won Tour and Giro. PelÃ* frames have won any number of races, the same with Marnati. There are hundreds of other framebuilders who have built frames that have been relabeled for pros. The main reasons why De Rosa became known is that he was one of the builders who contribued heavily to the development of Italian racing frame geometry and was the selected purveyor of frames to Merckx. Needless to say, De Rosa owed a huge debt of gratitude to Merckx so to help him set up his company would have come as normal. Colnago too hardly built a frame with his own name until the early 70's. He built frames for many riders that were relabeled with other names. The same with Masi. This is why they are revered.

Looks like I'm getting some participation...
BTW, Wilier produced bikes from 1906-1952 and then folded. The name was purchased and production restarted in 1969 to the present (owned by the same family in that time period). So for the guy that claimed that De Rosa had production more years total, they must do math differently in your neck of the woods (De Rosa=52 years, Wilier=87 years).

One of my friends is married into the Dal Molin family. The Dal Molin family were not bicycles producers from 1906 to 1952! It was started as a forge and apart from producing the occasional bicycle part, or making repairs to bikes, they were in no way to be considered a bicycle company since their 1906 inception. It was only after WWI that they began making bicycles as one of their primary business lines (around 1920-22). Furthermore, the bicycles that they produced were not racing bikes, but rather city bikes/roadsters. They ceased building bikes with the begin of WWII hostilities. They only began building racing bikes in 1945, which explains why the seminal book on pre-WWII Italian bicycle industry nad racing: Storia del Velocipede e dello Sport Ciclistico, written by Gardellin in 1946 does not even mention them. It was furthermore largely due to political patronage that they gained a position of note. Dal Molin and his political cronies used the bike team for political exposure. In fact the company name was changed from Wilier to Wilier Triestina for political reasons. At the time, the fate of Trieste was a highly charged political issue in Italy. There was huge debate as to whether Trieste and the Istrian peninsula would remain part of Italy or be 'given' as a reward to Tito for his support of the allies in the war.

The rebirth in 1969 had absolutely no ties to the previous incarnation of Wilier Triestina. The investors who bought the name, bought it because of the recognition of the brand and their trademark copper-plated bikes. In total, Wilier Triestina has sold racing bikes for 43 years, hence less than De Rosa. The huge majority, if not even perhaps all, of their bikes today are produced by third-party suppliers. They are not produced by Wilier employees! De Rosa family members and employees on the other hand do build their own frames.

Framebuilders often build for bike companies. De Rosa built for Chiorda, Faema, Benotto, Wilier, Merckx etc... There is plenty of proof of this. What you need to understand is that De Rosa is not an industrial company. It is simply a small family run shop. They do not have professional management or specially trained personnel. Everything is run/managed by the De Rosa family and they are happy with this as long as they can maintain their present lifestyle. They cannot therefore grow beyond a certain level and maintain this same structure. With limited production possibilities, whether you build everything in your name or for others makes no difference. So to build for another company is not a major problem, especially if there is a financial benefit. A commercial company like Wilier on the other hand only requires capital and good management to diversify and grow. Their growth possibilities are in fact limitless. In such a case, to build for another company would indeed be counterproductive.

Have you ever heard of the framebuilders Pelê, Marnati, Billato...? All have built numerous frames for pro teams that carried other names. Billato frames have won Tour and Giro. Pelê frames have won any number of races, the same with Marnati. There are hundreds of other framebuilders who have built frames that have been relabeled for pros. The main reasons why De Rosa became known is that he was one of the builders who contribued heavily to the development of Italian racing frame geometry and was the selected purveyor of frames to Merckx. Needless to say, De Rosa owed a huge debt of gratitude to Merckx so to help him set up his company would have come as normal. Colnago too hardly built a frame with his own name until the early 70's. He built frames for many riders that were relabeled with other names. The same with Masi. This is why they are revered.


Cheers, that really cleared things up......some great info!

To the best of my knowledge Ugo De Rosa was Eddy Merckx's mechanic in the late 60's early 70's & that's how their relationship was formed.

DeRosa certainly is a family run business, I had the pleasure to meet Cristiano DeRosa during a training holiday in Riccione, he stayed with his family in the same hotel & brought his De Rosa Cinquanta with him!

As to whether De Rosa or Wilier have been around the longest..........could I care less...

If you own a Wilier or a De Rosa I hope you enjoy riding it, isn't that why we're all here?

De Rosa can't even compare to the top Wilier models (longer history, more Pro Tour team sponsorship), why does De Rosa warrant its' own thread and Wilier does not?

Because Wilier Triestina didn't do anything special to be remembered for, and to say that about De Rosa top models is at least doubtful. History of De Rosa bikes is much more important, and as you could see from what others said it is loger when we are talking in terms of designing race bikes. Even today De Rosa is unique and special, they tend to be pioneers as much as they can. Ugo De Rosa is driven by it's pleasure and passion.
On the other side you have a company that uses bought name for comercial reasons, the company that is owned by who knows who, the company that doesn't make distinct bikes, the company that is mostly profit driven, and the company that is not big enough to be the BIG company.
If we confront the facts I would go for De Rosa because of the craftsmenship, history, distinguishing and hand built quality.
Pro Team sponsorship is not something I would take into account, but even there De Rosa is among most noticeable trade marks. I don't think there are many names that carry so many victories in pro cycling as De Rosa...Wilier is certanly not one of those.
Not even the number of produced bikes will earn Wilier it's own forum, I guess they produce more or less the same quantity as De Rosa does.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with Wilier bikes, but De Rosa is a huge name in this sport.

Sorry for political OT but I couldn't resist :)

Dal Molin and his political cronies used the bike team for political exposure. In fact the company name was changed from Wilier to Wilier Triestina for political reasons. At the time, the fate of Trieste was a highly charged political issue in Italy. There was huge debate as to whether Trieste and the Istrian peninsula would remain part of Italy or be 'given' as a reward to Tito for his support of the allies in the war.

Guess you are from Italy? I'm from Croatia so I could add a few comments to that, but I will abstain because it would probbably take us somewhere we don't wonna go.

Sorry for political OT but I couldn't resist :)



Guess you are from Italy? I'm from Croatia so I could add a few comments to that, but I will abstain because it would probbably take us somewhere we don't wonna go.

I am neither Italian, nor of Italian background. I did however live and work there for over a decade. For those of you that are not familiar with the history of Trieste, a very short history and geography lesson is called for. Trieste is the Easternmost city of any importance in Italy. The city dates back to pre-Roman times when the Illyrians and Celts battled for the location. The Romans then took over and made it into a trade center. In the early 13th century, it came under the control of Venice where it remained for close to 200 years. The locals then decided to switch alliance to the Austrian empire where they remained until the early 18th century, at what time it was officially declared a 'free port' and became a magnet for exiles and traders. It flourished as a center of trade. The Italians long believed it was their historical right to retake the city, and after exceedingly heavy fighting they succeeded in 1919. They then facilitated the colonization of the area by poor Italians from other parts of the country, thereby changing the cultural make-up of the population. So there was plenty of justification on both sides to want Trieste to be ceded one way or another. Both sides were willing to do almost anything to draw favor their way. The choice of Wilier as a pro team bike supplier and the motives of those supplying the financial support to the team were therefore somewhat suspect. Especially as the support only came after the addition of the Triestina part to the company name.

Wilier DOES deserve its own forum.. what it comes down to is that if enough wilier ownders want one, they'll get one. De Rosa isn't a company i have any respect for, so i see where you're coming from. giving a bike a slick paint job with a heart on it doesn't make it a good bike. But I'm not out to piss people off here so I'll leave it at that and retreat.

Wilier DOES deserve its own forum.. what it comes down to is that if enough wilier ownders want one, they'll get one.
I second that :) If ppl want it, they should get it.

I second that :) If ppl want it, they should get it.

Funny thing to add since most seem to be of the opinion that De Rosa is higher quality.
My friend just received his new De Rosa Merak on Friday. And the head tube badge is way off. I know that applying a badge such as this must take a team of engineers but my Wilier badge is straight. Go ahead and flame away but I see no difference in the construction of the frames, etc. Except that the De Rosa's tubes are hydroformed (which definitely gives the tubes some unique shapes).

...see them a lot, and they have quite a number of dealers selling them.

Mr. Scary I think that, with all due respect, you're getting a little carried away here. Don't come into the De Rosa forum and try to start some lame flame-war. If you read my post you'll see that I support what you said originally, but the bottom line is this: De Rosa warrants a forum because lots of rbr users own de rosa's and the forum gets put to use. If you want a Wilier forum, talk to the mod's- whether or not Wilier makes better bikes than De Rosa is irrelevant, and coming into the De Rosa forum to argue this is inappropriate IMO.