has never put a business out of business.

Consumers, by their economic choices, have.

has never put a business out of business.

Consumers, by their economic choices, have.

but that line doesnt draw new liberals to the tent. a successful business model MUST be destroyed.

You can't really define Wal-mart as a successful biz model without taking into acount the enormous subsidies they get from Federal assistence programs. All the big corporations, Wal-Mart, Mc-dees, etc are very skilled at keeping their workers just on the edge of receiving benefits. Then they do charming things like require them to wear their vests to and from their cars AND insist they answer any questions from customers in the lot thereby gaining 10-15 minutes of free work out of each worker per day.
So the worker sits on the edge with minimum wage and no benefits trying to support a family and working a 39 hour week. Who picks up the slack? You and I do in Welfare and Medicaid--or heating assistance.
Don't forget the enomous subsidies that go into the products they sell as well. 5 bucks for 2 cases of Pepsi. The bottling plant, print shop, and trucking all get a tax break. Don't forget the 4 billion a year that goes into the corn that produces the high fructose corn syrup. Mind you all that corn is grown by fertilizers produced from petochemicals made from oil.
On top of that, just how much in tax breaks does the main Wal-mart office get? How much do they pay in real taxes? The top 20 large corporations in NJ don't pay taxes. I have no problem with a successful biz model, lets just keep it fair.

The top 20 large corporations in NJ don't pay taxes. Well last I checked NJ was a Blue state. Better talk to your reps and governor or vote Republican next time.

...Then they do charming things like require them to wear their vests to and from their cars AND insist they answer any questions from customers in the lot thereby gaining 10-15 minutes of free work out of each worker per day...

I call BS. I can't remember spending 10-15 minutes speaking to Walmart workers in total over an entire year and that includes saying Hi to the greeter and Thank You to the cashier. What questions are people asking in the parking lot that take 10-15 minutes every day to answer? I do not see swarms of customers surrounding the Blue Vest to ask them questions in the parking lot. If you are going to throw out examples of the evil empire then at least use factual examples and stop making crap up or repeating crap made up by other people.

...or vote Republican next time.
Why, so they can up that number to 40 or 50 corporations not paying taxes?

5 bucks for 2 cases of Pepsi. The bottling plant, print shop, and trucking all get a tax break. Don't forget the 4 billion a year that goes into the corn that produces the high fructose corn syrup. Mind you all that corn is grown by fertilizers produced from petochemicals made from oil.
On top of that, just how much in tax breaks does the main Wal-mart office get? How much do they pay in real taxes? The top 20 large corporations in NJ don't pay taxes. I have no problem with a successful biz model, lets just keep it fair.

and by selling pepsi to walmart what taxes are generated?

taxes from the employees on the wages earned from pepsi:

pepsi employees that pay taxes
the trucking company
the people who sell the trucking company their trucks
the gas and oil companies who sell their products
the printing company
the printing company suppliers
the people who maintain the pepsi facilities
the vendors like it companies and telecom, etc that work with pepsi
etc. etc, etc.

now how about the people who grow the corn, the corporations who refine it into corn syrup, the fertlizer companies, the shippers of the fertilizer, the vendors and thrid parties the shippers use....

it goes on and on and on.

now, how about the thousands upon thousands of people who work at the top 20 NJ companies. I'll let you work up that list of situations where taxes are generated by their employees.

I call BS. I can't remember spending 10-15 minutes speaking to Walmart workers in total over an entire year and that includes saying Hi to the greeter and Thank You to the cashier. What questions are people asking in the parking lot that take 10-15 minutes every day to answer? I do not see swarms of customers surrounding the Blue Vest to ask them questions in the parking lot. If you are going to throw out examples of the evil empire then at least use factual examples and stop making crap up or repeating crap made up by other people.


A judgment was recently entered against Wal-mart in California because they would not give their workers a statutorily mandated lunch break during their eight hour shift. They also have numerous lawsuits pending against them because they refuse to pay overtime and in fact have instructed their managers to alter the workers time cards to reflects shifts of less than eight hours.

As far as putting other business out of business, while it may be that the consumers are the ones that buy their goods it is walmart that will set their prices below their own costs to drive out their competition so that they can have a monopoly. It's no accident that they tend to go into smaller markets first.

Well Turtle your examples sound real, believable and documented. I think the original guy was just spouting off about 10-15 minute conversations with customers in the parking lot. I find those hard to believe.

and by selling pepsi to walmart what taxes are generated?

taxes from the employees on the wages earned from pepsi:

pepsi employees that pay taxes
the trucking company
the people who sell the trucking company their trucks
the gas and oil companies who sell their products
the printing company
the printing company suppliers
the people who maintain the pepsi facilities
the vendors like it companies and telecom, etc that work with pepsi
etc. etc, etc.

now how about the people who grow the corn, the corporations who refine it into corn syrup, the fertlizer companies, the shippers of the fertilizer, the vendors and thrid parties the shippers use....

it goes on and on and on.

now, how about the thousands upon thousands of people who work at the top 20 NJ companies. I'll let you work up that list of situations where taxes are generated by their employees.

That's great, why do the big biz get all the tax breaks? What happened to free market? Unless your position is that large corporations shouldn't pay taxes altogether. They are getting it at both ends, they get the corn subsidized by the government, then the corporation doesn't have to pay taxes. Fairly neat arrangement. I would love to get my inventory subsidized and then not have to pay taxes on the profits. Where does the bulk of that money go? Shareholders, not to the workers. And neo-cons don't want capital gains taxes either so its all free money if you happen to own shares of Wal-Mart.

If your position is that individuals should shoulder the burden of all taxes through wages, that is cool. But the money for government has to come from somewhere. I don't know any country in the world that works on this model.

Finally, huge corporate subsidies, tax free zones, and shelters is not a sucessful business model, it is a socialist, goverment sposored, biz model.

[QUOTE=867-5309]That's great, why do the big biz get all the tax breaks?

not sure that they do but maybe its because they employ the most people and those employees generate taxes. maybe smaller businesses generate smaller tax revenues and get lost in the shuffle. i'm not saying its fair but there are lots of things that arent fair.

Your punt is a valid one. People who patronize walmart share the blame and burden. The resistance to walmart (I do think of it this way) is predicated on enforcing laws that walmart breaks with impunity and encouraging consumers to make a better choice. On the latter, in many communities the choice closed shop years ago, so one can't reasonably fault people for shopping there now, but from a moral standpoint I think everyone who feels conflicted about the matter could find ways to reduce their patronage.

That's great, why do the big biz get all the tax breaks? What happened to free market? Unless your position is that large corporations shouldn't pay taxes altogether. They are getting it at both ends, they get the corn subsidized by the government, then the corporation doesn't have to pay taxes. Fairly neat arrangement. I would love to get my inventory subsidized and then not have to pay taxes on the profits. Where does the bulk of that money go? Shareholders, not to the workers. And neo-cons don't want capital gains taxes either so its all free money if you happen to own shares of Wal-Mart.

If your position is that individuals should shoulder the burden of all taxes through wages, that is cool. But the money for government has to come from somewhere. I don't know any country in the world that works on this model.

Finally, huge corporate subsidies, tax free zones, and shelters is not a sucessful business model, it is a socialist, goverment sposored, biz model.

Corporations don't pay any taxes at all! Isn't that great? Not because they retain a favored status, but because they pass those costs along to the consumer. If corporate taxes were to rise from their present top rate of 39% to 80%, they still wouldn't pay anything. But you can be sure that the price of goods they sell would go up accordingly.

Your posts are great entertainment. Not much for data, but entertaining. Sort of like chewing gum. No nutritional value.

Your posts are great entertainment. Not much for data, but entertaining. Sort of like chewing gum. No nutritional value.

Bill 105 and I were having a nice discussion without the insults, please stop. Bill's tone has been quite respectful since his return. and I credit him.

Ever heard of this amazing word call "profit." Corporate profits are not constant. Taxes, at the right level, cut into corporate profit, but not into the consumer cost. It is not as though that all of a sudden when taxes are increased that corporations will raise prices. That is a naive, politicized, view of the market.

Furthermore if you don't tax corporations then, as I said before, individuals make up the difference. They then can spend less money, it is the same as raising prices.

Where do you propose money to pay for the interest on the Republican's deficit comes from?

Of course we should blame Walmat. Doesn't everyone know that it siezes land without paying for it, rounds up slaves to work in the stores, then kidnaps members of the public just driving down the road and forces them into the stores, playing sublimal messages that subconsciously motivate them to purchase? Oh, I also heard that it poisons public water supplies, and the only way people can find relief from the misery is to walk around in Walmart stores inhaling the antidote, but no one is supposed to know about this.

and all this drivel about how they treat their workers is just pathetic. they arent rocket scientists or doctors or skilled employees by any stretch of the imagination. they arent even "put round peg in round hole assembly line drones". they work at WALMART!!

if walmart was holding a gun to their heads making them work there then i might feel differently, but each employee can choose to leave for a better job, become trained for a better job, study to be something different, or shut up about it and man-up the frikkin cash register when i'm standing in line so i dont have to wait as long.

Of course we should blame Walmat. Doesn't everyone know that it siezes land without paying for it, rounds up slaves to work in the stores, then kidnaps members of the public just driving down the road and forces them into the stores, playing sublimal messages that subconsciously motivate them to purchase? Oh, I also heard that it poisons public water supplies, and the only way people can find relief from the misery is to walk around in Walmart stores inhaling the antidote, but no one is supposed to know about this.

Bill 105 and I were having a nice discussion without the insults, please stop. Bill's tone has been quite respectful since his return. and I credit him.

Ever heard of this amazing word call "profit." Corporate profits are not constant. Taxes, at the right level, cut into corporate profit, but not into the consumer cost. It is not as though that all of a sudden when taxes are increased that corporations will raise prices. That is a naive, politicized, view of the market.

Furthermore if you don't tax corporations then, as I said before, individuals make up the difference. They then can spend less money, it is the same as raising prices.

Where do you propose money to pay for the interest on the Republican's deficit comes from?

Bill was correcting some of you misperceptions.

You're a wiz at biz, it seems. "It is not as though that all of a sudden when taxes are increased that corporations will raise prices." Taxes don't go up "all of a sudden". Corporations do pass along increases in costs to consumers, and taxes are definitely a cost that can be calculated and accounted for. There is an figure known as EBITDA (Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) that is a key component to determining a corporation's ability to meet its financial obligations. This is because interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization are all costs that can be controlled and give us a good look at how well the corp is, in fact, controlling these major expenses. One way they control them is to pass them along to their customers via price hikes. That happens, and that is why corporations pay no income tax.

Please come back when you know what you're talking about.

has never put a business out of business.

Consumers, by their economic choices, have.

Yeah you probably would have said the same thing about Standard Oil back in the day.

Walmart is basically a predatory, ruthless vertical monopoly. They can dictate how much a vendor will charge for their product and how much to make. Indeed they ultimately tell them where to make it. As an anchor store in these small communities it has tremendous influence on what it's competition is allowed to do or not do. It's a basically a do-what-I-say-or-go-out-of-business proposition for a lot of manufacturers who partner with Walmart. Of course this results in ultra-low prices and wide selections for consumers which is the equivalent of getting a fat pay raise for those of us in the lower economic classes. What's not to like?

But then someone always has to pay don't they? I mean I love low taxes but I'm not so sure kids today will be enjoying it come retirement age. TANSTAAFL, right? People do suffer under this scheme.

Not sure if Wal-mart will continue to prosper or not since it is so growth and volume oriented some unseen market force may undermine it. Then again Wal-mart might end up running all the competition into the ground at which point you can bet the government will get involved and bust it up anyway. But basically I think they want to rule the world and that doesn't give me any joy. More more more is just sick sick sick in my book.

[QUOTE=Sintesi]

They can dictate how much a vendor will charge for their product and how much to make. Indeed they ultimately tell them where to make it.

It's a basically a do-what-I-say-or-go-out-of-business proposition for a lot of manufacturers who partner with Walmart.

I'm not so sure kids today will be enjoying it come retirement age.

hey, i learned 3 things.

1. if walmart asks your company to lower its prices and sell to them, your company must comply with walmart. you cant not sell to walmart. man thats power!

2. walmart then owns your company if you sell to them. you still have to work there but the management of your company is just running around looking busy in fear some walmart exec will drop by.

3. the difference between what i pay at walmart for a lawn chair (.88 cents) and the store down the street will be billed to my children one day. damn! i knew there was a catch. it just seemed like a great price aty the time.


thanks for the econ lesson!!

"1. if walmart asks your company to lower its prices and sell to them, your company must comply with walmart. you cant not sell to walmart. man thats power!"



2. walmart then owns your company if you sell to them. you still have to work there but the management of your company is just running around looking busy in fear some walmart exec will drop by.




It's a little more complex and subtle than that but essentially you're in the ballpark. I know you think you're being sarcastic but unfortunately (sigh, I know you try) you're still twirling away on your sit-and-spin.


http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2003-01-28-walmartnation_x.htm

"1. if walmart asks your company to lower its prices and sell to them, your company must comply with walmart. you cant not sell to walmart. man thats power!"



2. walmart then owns your company if you sell to them. you still have to work there but the management of your company is just running around looking busy in fear some walmart exec will drop by.




It's a little more complex and subtle than that but essentially you're in the ballpark. I know you think you're being sarcastic but unfortunately (sigh, I know you try) you're still twirling away on your sit-and-spin.


http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2003-01-28-walmartnation_x.htm


is that it? that 2003 article from usatoday? do you think we're all in trouble because walmart was 26% of rayovacs sales in 2003? my largest clients client is walmart and i can assure you, theyre not worried about their relationship with walmart.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but that is what happens to many companies that do business with Wal Mart. There are many examples. Wal Mart also muzzles their suppliers. There are also many examples of this activity. Say something bad about Wal Mart and you risk having your orders cut or dropped completely. Wal Mart is everything that's been said and then some, good and bad. Let's not be naive.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but that is what happens to many companies that do business with Wal Mart. There are many examples. Wal Mart also muzzles their suppliers. There are also many examples of this activity. Say something bad about Wal Mart and you risk having your orders cut or dropped completely. Wal Mart is everything that's been said and then some, good and bad. Let's not be naive.


Exactly. There are benefits to be sure but what are the repurcussions? We don't live in a laissez-faire economy anymore. There are limits, it is regulated.

If the robber barons and monopolies of the turn of the century are considered heinous in this day and age the question begs: Why isn't Walmart as well?

I'm not saying shut the doors but the more powerful it becomes it surely will be brought to heel.

and all this drivel about how they treat their workers is just pathetic. they arent rocket scientists or doctors or skilled employees by any stretch of the imagination. they arent even "put round peg in round hole assembly line drones". they work at WALMART!!

It wasn't that long ago in our nation that such terms were thrown around about slaves. Class warfare is alive and well.

It wasn't that long ago in our nation that such terms were thrown around about slaves. Class warfare is alive and well.

i dont remember the slaves having the option of quitting and working somewhere else.

youre the party of education, youve got the teachers and educators votes sewn up and have had for decades. where is the progress and opportunity for these slaves to pull themselves up by the bootstraps through your quality education and job creation policies? surely you dont want them working at walmart all their lives. or do you? maybe if you can keep them down you can keep them on the plantation with the blacks and the teachers voting democrat, but wait, thats already the plan.

I don't have a problem with the heavy hand of Wal-Mart in biz. Fixed is right about this, they aren't like Tyler Pipe in Texas which is clearly immoral--or the meatpacking industry. I would say Wal-Mart is amoral, they maximize their profits in any way they can. But, they can behave any way they want. What I do take issue with is the fact their behavior is being funded by tax breaks and shelters. In other words, Bill, I agree, they can pay their employees anything they want, I just don't want to be picking up the slack.

I would say Wal-Mart is amoral, they maximize their profits in any way they can. But, they can behave any way they want. What I do take issue with is the fact their behavior is being funded by tax breaks and shelters. In other words, Bill, I agree, they can pay their employees anything they want, I just don't want to be picking up the slack.

No I would say immoral, Wal-Marts creedo is profit at any expense....let the govt pay for health care...........Wal-Mart is but a symptom of our diseased system.......what are we going to do when China buys them out

I don't have a problem with the heavy hand of Wal-Mart in biz. Fixed is right about this, they aren't like Tyler Pipe in Texas which is clearly immoral--or the meatpacking industry. I would say Wal-Mart is amoral, they maximize their profits in any way they can. But, they can behave any way they want. What I do take issue with is the fact their behavior is being funded by tax breaks and shelters. In other words, Bill, I agree, they can pay their employees anything they want, I just don't want to be picking up the slack.

Another funny thing.

Part of me wishes Walmart would come to NYC and put some of these crummy mom & pop shyster/merchants we got here out of business. We got a lot of crap shops out here.

No I would say immoral, Wal-Marts creedo is profit at any expense....let the govt pay for health care...........Wal-Mart is but a symptom of our diseased system.......what are we going to do when China buys them out

employees have health insurance. Half have health insurance through Wal Mart. Wal Mart offers health insurance to its full- and part-time employees. During a recent enrollment period, 70,000 Wal Mart who had previously waived coverage signed up for their plan. 78% of those people had been uninsured before.

There's much more of this kind of reading here http://www.walmartfacts.com/newsdesk/article.aspx?id=1625.

Perhaps you should do some fact-checking before you post.

Bill was correcting some of you misperceptions.

You're a wiz at biz, it seems. "It is not as though that all of a sudden when taxes are increased that corporations will raise prices." Taxes don't go up "all of a sudden". Corporations do pass along increases in costs to consumers, and taxes are definitely a cost that can be calculated and accounted for. There is an figure known as EBITDA (Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) that is a key component to determining a corporation's ability to meet its financial obligations. This is because interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization are all costs that can be controlled and give us a good look at how well the corp is, in fact, controlling these major expenses. One way they control them is to pass them along to their customers via price hikes. That happens, and that is why corporations pay no income tax.

Please come back when you know what you're talking about.

Bill and I were having a civil conversation which seems to be out of the realm of possibility with you.

No I would say immoral, Wal-Marts creedo is profit at any expense....let the govt pay for health care...........Wal-Mart is but a symptom of our diseased system.......what are we going to do when China buys them outA better question is "What is China going to do when the Fed cracks down on Walmart?"

Seriously... put Walmart down and China loses a big chunk of change.

employees have health insurance. Half have health insurance through Wal Mart. Wal Mart offers health insurance to its full- and part-time employees. During a recent enrollment period, 70,000 Wal Mart who had previously waived coverage signed up for their plan. 78% of those people had been uninsured before.

There's much more of this kind of reading here http://www.walmartfacts.com/newsdesk/article.aspx?id=1625.

Perhaps you should do some fact-checking before you post.

The quote you just gave comes directly from a Wal-Mart spokesperson herself. The fact is that the insurance is so bad that States have had to pass laws forcing Wal-Mart to fill in the gaps.

That's it, if you can't even be bothered to read who wrote the sources you quote I am putting you on my ignore list.

I can't hear you!!!!!!!!!

There's much more of this kind of reading here http://www.walmartfacts.com/newsdesk/article.aspx?id=1625.

Perhaps you should do some fact-checking before you post.


Wal-Mart said it, must be true.....got me

Wal-Mart said it, must be true.....got meWhy **would** they lie? Corporations always have the consumers' best interest @heart.



In an unrelated event...Jury selection for those wonda'ful Enron execs began...

Bill and I were having a civil conversation which seems to be out of the realm of possibility with you.
you were ignoring me? Please return to that mode.

has never put a business out of business.

Consumers, by their economic choices, have.

Ignorance certainly is bliss in your world.

I've run companies that supply wal-mart for many years and what you describe doesn't happen.....it just doesn't.

What does happen is that they set quality and service requirements that they reward.
What does happen is that if you don't provide good service they replace you.
But they do want suppliers that can make money....it's not in their best interest to drive their suppliers out of business.....that would be pretty stupid.

Look, I know everyone wants to hold up Wal-mart as the evil-empire, but this strikes me as nothing more than "success envy.'

Are they perfect, no.....are they effecient, absolutly...they use information as well as any company I've ever dealt with.

They brought a businessmodel that is much more efficient than others and as a result they succeeded.....isn't that what America is?

That being said, I think they have room for improvement, but they are not evil.

IMO

Len

has never put a business out of business.

Consumers, by their economic choices, have.
and it's amazing how naive many people are.

Wal-Mart is not the reincarnation of satan........

So what should we do.........?

1.) Shut them down.....yea, let's put 70,000 people out of work.

2.) Force them to raise costs......yea that will work......then they'll raise prices to cover the increased costs and who will get hurt...oh yea, all of the lower income people who rely on Wal-mart prices to stretch their dollar.

3.) Force them to raise costs but don't let them raise prices.....see # 1 above.

4.) Something else.???

It's easy to throw stones...how about some concrete suggestions that would keep the employment, keep the low prices the less compensated in the US rely on, and keep the company profitible enough to allow them to stay in business.........

Let's hear some ideas for improvement...

Len

Just because a corporation makes big $$ doesn't make then morally right. A heroin dealer makes big $$, but nobody says that that is the best business model to follow.

Just because a corporation makes big $$ doesn't make then morally right. A heroin dealer makes big $$, but nobody says that that is the best business model to follow.
All I said was that many of the "truths" about Wal-Mart that get thown around are fundamentally not true....in my experience as a supplier to them for many years.

I may be the only person responding to this thread that has actually dealt with them.

Len

and it's amazing how naive many people are.

Wal-Mart is not the reincarnation of satan........

So what should we do.........?

1.) Shut them down.....yea, let's put 70,000 people out of work.

2.) Force them to raise costs......yea that will work......then they'll raise prices to cover the increased costs and who will get hurt...oh yea, all of the lower income people who rely on Wal-mart prices to stretch their dollar.

3.) Force them to raise costs but don't let them raise prices.....see # 1 above.

4.) Something else.???

It's easy to throw stones...how about some concrete suggestions that would keep the employment, keep the low prices the less compensated in the US rely on, and keep the company profitible enough to allow them to stay in business.........

Let's hear some ideas for improvement...

Len

The WalMart = Satan group have no solutions to the supposed problems. THey want to do exactly what you are suggesting, as in babies and bath water. And this assumes that there IS a problem, which is a weakly arguable point. Wal Mart provides a service that people want and are willing to pay for. They do it legally and profitably. There is no monopoly as there are many successful players in the business. Look at Whole Foods, for example. Their prices are much higher than Wal Mart, but their growth is better and their stock price puts Wal Mart to shame. But the Whole Foods experience is completely different than Wal Mart, thereby offering consumers choices. Both can succeed if they find a market and sell to it. But the Wal Mart bashers don't see it that way.

Remember when the president of General Motors said "Whats good for GM is good for America"? There was talk about monopoly at that time, too. Then the Japanese discovered a section of the market that GM ignored - inexpensive, economical cars. Today GM is struggling to stay profitable while Toyota, Honda and Nissan are flourishing. Someone is probably out there right now thinking of how they can exploit the inefficiences of Wal Mart and finding a niche to serve the markets Wal Mart misses. I'm a perfect example. I won't shop at Wal Mart because I don't like the experience. I will shop at Whole Foods because I DO like the experience.

Let the "invisible hand" do its thing.

That's not the experience of a lot of suppliers. Here's a pretty informative article.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

That's not the experience of a lot of suppliers. Here's a pretty informative article.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html
Vlasic was stupid.......is that Wal Mart's fault?

Another interesting Quote that people ignore...."
"To a person, all those interviewed credit Wal-Mart with a fundamental integrity in its dealings that's unusual in the world of consumer goods, retailing, and groceries. Wal-Mart does not cheat suppliers, it keeps its word, it pays its bills briskly. "They are tough people but very honest; they treat you honestly," says Peter Campanella, who ran the business that sold Corning kitchenware products, both at Corning and then at World Kitchen. "It was a joke to do business with most of their competitors. A fiasco.""

"Bain's other critical discovery is that consumers are often more loyal to product companies than to Wal-Mart. With strongly branded items people develop a preference for--things like toothpaste or laundry detergent--Wal-Mart rarely forces shoppers to switch to a second choice. It would simply punish itself by seeing sales fall, and it won't put up with that for long."

"In the end, of course, it is we as shoppers who have the power, and who have given that power to Wal-Mart."

Dealing with Wal-Mart is tough but they are fair and honest and up-front. I'd deal with them anyday compared to dealing with Home-Depot or many other retailers. They are predictible.......if you are running a good business that is constantly getting more efficient and goes in with their eye's open......and most importantly, knows their market...you are fine.

My personal experience and nothing in that article surprises me....they are tough but fair.

Len

I will shop at Whole Foods because I DO like the experience.


...AND you can afford to shop there.

...AND you can afford to shop there.
so what do you suggest as a concrete solution to the Wal-Mart problem as you see it?

Len

Well put, Len. I know as a good usually-libby, I'm supposed to be Walmart hater but I'm not. I'm actually that rare thing... neutral.

For aesthetic and traffic reasons, I can understand not wanting one in my neighborhood, and I don't fault folks for that. But calling them evil is a stretch.

so what do you suggest as a concrete solution to the Wal-Mart problem as you see it?

Len
Now that's the question...and it's a loaded one. If I say we should pass legislation to limit the # of Walmarts in small rural areas it will be taken as unwanted government interference in business. If I say that WalMart should only buy US goods then I take away from them the ability to get the lowest price which is the reason they have been successful in the first place. They weild a big hammer as far as pricing of products go. They can sell something for way less than the mom and pops for long enough to drive them out of biz and then raise the prices once that is accomplished. I guess I just want them to play fair. Treat their workers with respect and not make them skip breaks. Give them decent benefits--don't force them to work 39 hours a week so they don't have to offer health care benefits. I don't see how that will happen without some legislation and enforcement.

Vlasic was stupid, Levis was stupid and many others were stupid. I guess they're all just stupid and you're not. Overall they are predatory and because they are so HUGE (bigger than the next five or more largest retailers COMBINED) they can force suppliers to do things they would never otherwise do. This is anti-competative and a good example of problems with the capitalist free market system. Now, before people start calling me a commie I'm an Adam Smith economist (actually have a degree in economics) and a free market proponent. What Wal-Mart is doing is distorting the system which is bad for it's overall health. I'm not advocating breaking up Wal-Mart but I can see there will come a time when the political system will take steps to reign them in. I certainly don't see it under the current administration but Wal-Mart will eventually become their own worst enemy.

Vlasic was stupid, Levis was stupid and many others were stupid. I guess they're all just stupid and you're not. Overall they are predatory and because they are so HUGE (bigger than the next five or more largest retailers COMBINED) they can force suppliers to do things they would never otherwise do. This is anti-competative and a good example of problems with the capitalist free market system. Now, before people start calling me a commie I'm an Adam Smith economist (actually have a degree in economics) and a free market proponent. What Wal-Mart is doing is distorting the system which is bad for it's overall health. I'm not advocating breaking up Wal-Mart but I can see there will come a time when the political system will take steps to reign them in. I certainly don't see it under the current administration but Wal-Mart will eventually become their own worst enemy.
to do anything?

I've walked away from large accounts because I couldn't make money on them. I've also had the courage to look Wal-Mart in the face & say no.......More times than not we came to an accomidation that worked for both of us.

Vlasic didn't understand the price elasticity in their own market........is that Wal-Mart's fault?

Let's just agree to disagree & remember I'm talking from actually working with them, you are talking from what you read in the press.

Len

Now that's the question...and it's a loaded one. If I say we should pass legislation to limit the # of Walmarts in small rural areas it will be taken as unwanted government interference in business. If I say that WalMart should only buy US goods then I take away from them the ability to get the lowest price which is the reason they have been successful in the first place. They weild a big hammer as far as pricing of products go. They can sell something for way less than the mom and pops for long enough to drive them out of biz and then raise the prices once that is accomplished. I guess I just want them to play fair. Treat their workers with respect and not make them skip breaks. Give them decent benefits--don't force them to work 39 hours a week so they don't have to offer health care benefits. I don't see how that will happen without some legislation and enforcement.
If you "force" Wal Mart to offer benefits to part time workers as you suggest, are you going to force all retailers to do the same? Why would you treat them differently? I worked in retail for many years (in school) and never got benefits. Again, what you are suggesting is a fundamental change in the way American Business works........I'm OK with that (BTW, I'm an advocate for National Health Care of some kind) but let's not punish one conmpany for being successful.

Wal Mart makes 3.6% of sales in Net income. 3.6 cents on every dollar spent in their stores......that really isn't that great a return to their shareholders Most of the businesses I'm involved in do better than that. They paid over $5.6 billion in income taxes last year in addition to property and payroll taxes. They Paid Dividends to their shareholders of over $2.2 Billion (which was also taxed). They offer low prices to lower income workers.

If you want them to play fair...fair at what? And if we are going to be fair in the solution, let's apply it to everyone.

I think the real issue is that many people want them to be less successful....I don't see haow that helps the US economy.

Len

I think the real issue is that many people want them to be less successful....I don't see haow that helps the US economy.

Len
I think that WalMart's negative effects usually only occur in small rural communities. In a larger market it generally all comes out in the wash. I don't have any problems with WalMart being successful, but you have to admit that often they radically change the face of retail sales in rural USA--most often not for the better. Entire shopping districts get shut down because they can't compete. Maybe they should be shut down? Don't have an answer to that, but once WalMart is the only option in town then they have these towns where they want them. You have to buy your crap at Walmart. Very little other options. And then Walmart has little incentive to keep prices low and to treat employees well. The $$ spent generates some sales tax for the community, but overall the money doesn't stay in town like it used to. Then you have the Internet as the next frontier--if I lived in rural USA I'd be shopping online as much as I could.

I think that WalMart's negative effects usually only occur in small rural communities. In a larger market it generally all comes out in the wash. I don't have any problems with WalMart being successful, but you have to admit that often they radically change the face of retail sales in rural USA--most often not for the better. Entire shopping districts get shut down because they can't compete. Maybe they should be shut down? Don't have an answer to that, but once WalMart is the only option in town then they have these towns where they want them. You have to buy your crap at Walmart. Very little other options. And then Walmart has little incentive to keep prices low and to treat employees well. The $$ spent generates some sales tax for the community, but overall the money doesn't stay in town like it used to. Then you have the Internet as the next frontier--if I lived in rural USA I'd be shopping online as much as I could.
I'll have to see if I still have a copy.....but basicially what the study showed was that net employment in small communities actually rose comparing pre & post Wal Mart, that taxes retained actually rose and that (Aledgedly due to the lower prices) more disposable income was spent in the community.

The down side is that the shopping does tend to move out of the center of the rural areas. But economically, the communities were in better shape aftercompared to before. Of course if you owned a small shop that couldn't compete, you would have a different view......but in terms of economic dollars in a community, the majority ended up better off.

It was done about 5 yrs ago

Len

I cited several examples of companies that started with small contracts with Wal-Mart that then developed into bigger ones and, for some. a majority of their production. When Wal-Mart squeezed them for lower and lower prices they had no choice. Either lose over 50% of your business or comply. No company can replace the majority of their business fast enough to withstand this pressure. I'm glad your experience with Wal-Mart has been a good one. It hasn't been everyones. You're only one of many, many suppliers. You also didn't address the muzzling of companies. Fear of losing such a big customer will keep people quiet. Some of these practices are just hardball business while others border on or cross the line into unethical practices and maybe illegal.

Wal-Mart is the 8,000 pound gorrila and knows how to throw it's weight around. I just don't think their business model is sustainable, either in a political or a business sense.

Wal-Mart is the 8,000 pound gorrila and knows how to throw it's weight around. I just don't think their business model is sustainable, either in a political or a business sense.
Not to mention their blatant union busting tactics.

I cited several examples of companies that started with small contracts with Wal-Mart that then developed into bigger ones and, for some. a majority of their production. When Wal-Mart squeezed them for lower and lower prices they had no choice. Either lose over 50% of your business or comply. No company can replace the majority of their business fast enough to withstand this pressure. I'm glad your experience with Wal-Mart has been a good one. It hasn't been everyones. You're only one of many, many suppliers. You also didn't address the muzzling of companies. Fear of losing such a big customer will keep people quiet. Some of these practices are just hardball business while others border on or cross the line into unethical practices and maybe illegal.

Wal-Mart is the 8,000 pound gorrila and knows how to throw it's weight around. I just don't think their business model is sustainable, either in a political or a business sense.like these companies don't have a choice...they do. If you don't want to be held hostage, don't sell to them.......If you do sell to them, have contingency plans......be clear on what you are willing to do and not do........I love when a company complains because WalMart is now 60% of their business and W/M wants a consession, you sure don't hear them complaining when the business is growing.

Every one of our companies that deals with W/M is required as part of their budgeting process to describe their plans if they lose the W/M business, and under what conditions they would walk away and what their plans are. In addition, what are they doing to make themselves less W/M vulnerable, either through innovation (things that W/M can't replace) or thru other business. To us, that is just good sound reality based planning. We look at out W/M business as opportunistic and something to be enjoyed while it lasts.......it also is business that allows you to afford to stramline your systems and infrastructure so even w/o them you are a better company.

What Wal mart has done for the economy is force all retailers and their suppliers to get better and more efficient. I think that is a good thing.

Len

maybe you're right, but I bet if those WalMart employees unionized they'd get better treatment from management.
maybe no......but if they did...prices would rise...what would that due for the average lower middle class worker?

Len

Not to mention their blatant union busting tactics.
of the American economy....but that's a different discussion.

Every single company I've interacted with that has a Union is at a higher risk of economic failure that those without.

Unions had their place but that place is long gone.

IMO

Len

of the American economy....but that's a different discussion.

Every single company I've interacted with that has a Union is at a higher risk of economic failure that those without.

Unions had their place but that place is long gone.

IMO

Len
maybe you're right, but I bet if those WalMart employees unionized they'd get better treatment from management.

maybe no......but if they did...prices would rise...what would that due for the average lower middle class worker?

Len
they'd buy less useless crap maybe?