Answer the poll, then make your case!

Why do you hope it declines?

China.

Really, what else must one say?

I hope it declines, but not too much. It seems to work here, and in Europe. Not so successful in terms of export, though, at least when it's been forced. Asia is on the rise, and I suspect China, Southeast Asia, and India will gain considerable influence in the years to come.

Well the alternatives to Westernization are religious states, theocracies and Communism/Socialism. You're good with that?

Why do you hope it declines?

Multiculturalism is more interesting and the export of Western Civilization was not always civilized.

Well the alternatives to Westernization are religious states, theocracies and Communism/Socialism. You're good with that?NOT SOCIALISM!!!!!! ANYTHING BUT THAT!

Well the alternatives to Westernization are religious states, theocracies and Communism/Socialism. You're good with that?

How are religious states and theocracies different from one another? And why do you assume that Western Civilization refers only to forms of government?

Answer the poll, then make your case!


We're doomed! We'll never make it ...


PS I don't know much about what's been going on but I hope I don't get in anymore trouble...

China.

Really, what else must one say?

What else to say? How about India?

India is HUGELY western. British influence in education and government, big big film industry. And a population to rival China.

Western != American

FWIW, I voted for doomed.

What else to say? How about India?

India is HUGELY western. British influence in education and government, big big film industry. And a population to rival China.

Western != American

FWIW, I voted for doomed.


I voted for doomed too.

I mean if you can't talk about Merckx giving a bike to Fidel in the PO section of a cycling forum we must be doomed.


PS

Fidel's frame is made of:

A) steel

B) aluminum

C) carbon


Which does Fidel think is better?:

A) Campagnolo

B) Shimano

C) both are equally good


Please don't delete me.

What else to say? How about India?

India is HUGELY western. British influence in education and government, big big film industry. And a population to rival China.

Western != American

FWIW, I voted for doomed.

While I wholeheartedly agree that Western does not = American, I also would not say that India is hugely Western. There is a tremendous Western influence; particularly in popular culture, government, and education for the well-to-do, but there are also strong countervailing Eastern influences. These tend to be fragmented and regionalized, but they play a significant role in Indian culture and society; particularly among the lower social strata. India is a fascinating country, and serves as an example of the sorts of flashpoints that can occur when West meets East.

Grow, thrive and spread.

Why: The Internet

Answer the poll, then make your case!


unless some major changes are made in the next 25 years I'd say we're doomed, not in the
end of the species sense but rather in the end of a continuing betterment of the quality of life.....as China and India steamroll into the industrial age with few of the environmental safe guards that this country took over 100 years to enact (and still not enough) coupled with major population pressures we are going to see the effects of a planet unable to support the consurmerism that has driven western civilization. Who is going to get access to the dwindling resources? The US, China, EU, India? Despite what the cons continue to say, the current economic paradigm is not sustainable indefinitely....the age of endless resources is over and the sooner with come to grips with that and adapt the easier the transition. As our society is driven by rampant consumerism, it ain't gonna happen and the decline ain't gonna be pretty. Iraq is an early domino in the illusory attempt to maintain the status quo........

i guess you are thinking the emergence of chinese power and the struggle between the atheist, consummerist society versus muslim spiritualized fundamentalism.. well. western civilization is hegemonic. period. it will incorporate the chinese superpower and defeat those middleage fundamentalism. it will prevail and this is due to being a dynamic, very fast changing society.
in 20 yrs, american cities will incorporate chinese guettos. not only chinese but brazilian, colombian, thai and other nationalities. language and slang will suffer major impact. you will get the feeling you will be living in an outer space post w/ mongolian desert looks but the stock market, upper class schools and hospitals will be very euro like. economics will be capitalism and culture will have lots of big art shows and big music concerts. technology will be virtual and genetics..

culture will have lots of big art shows and big music concerts. technology will be virtual and genetics..


I wish I was this optimistic.........though I think colker is being just a wee bit sarcastic

I wish I was this optimistic.........though I think colker is being just a wee bit sarcastic

actually i wasn't.. and i don't even think mine is an optimistic view! western civilization is a nightmare; you are being told every single second you are alone, there is no God and nothing but success or power makes any sense.

The sky is the limit.
The bad news is that the USA will be part of the "Second World", along with France, Britain, Russia, and most of Europe. There will be no "Third World". Anybody not in the First or Second World will be in the "4th world". Either starving because of overpopulation, or destroyed by warfare. (kinda' like Mad Max)
Ps. Western Civ. doesn't have to be in the "West".

While I am certainly no scholar of history, none of the problems we have today are anything new. You don't have to read much Plato to realize human nature has been virtually unchanged for thousands of years and yet our societies have nothing but advanced since. The thought that somehow we're going to destroy ourselves now seems horribly misplaced. Armeggedon has been coming for two thousand years according to some, how are you pessimists any different than the preachers of God's impending wrath???

While I am certainly no scholar of history, none of the problems we have today are anything new. You don't have to read much Plato to realize human nature has been virtually unchanged for thousands of years and yet our societies have nothing but advanced since. The thought that somehow we're going to destroy ourselves now seems horribly misplaced. Armeggedon has been coming for two thousand years according to some, how are you pessimists any different than the preachers of God's impending wrath???

Well, lots of civilizations have ended, for some reason or another.

We are the first worldwide civilization that encompasses the entire human race (give or take a few thousand). This could be the one shot at industrialization and beyond. I'm hoping we make it, instead of a crash and burn.

I do agree with you that a lot of the pessimism is unwarranted. The starving, dramatic population drop is probably the most likely imo.

Silas

Well, lots of civilizations have ended, for some reason or another.

We are the first worldwide civilization that encompasses the entire human race (give or take a few thousand). This could be the one shot at industrialization and beyond. I'm hoping we make it, instead of a crash and burn.

I do agree with you that a lot of the pessimism is unwarranted. The starving, dramatic population drop is probably the most likely imo.

Silas

I would never argue bad things won't happen during the course...as I believe at some point in the next fifty years a nuclear device will be detonated in one of our major cities, but trial is one of the primary motivators for innovation, has been since the beginning of time.

Deleted... Not worth the strife

Well, lots of civilizations have ended, for some reason or another.

We are the first worldwide civilization that encompasses the entire human race (give or take a few thousand). This could be the one shot at industrialization and beyond. I'm hoping we make it, instead of a crash and burn.

I do agree with you that a lot of the pessimism is unwarranted. The starving, dramatic population drop is probably the most likely imo.

Silas


I don't think I'm a pessimist. I think I'm a realist.

It would take at least one hundred years of hardcore population control to get the global population back down to where everyone could more or less have the standard of living that Western Civilization currently enjoys now and be sustainable. That would have to include some major technological advances that would allow us to continue to live the way we do but without burning through the finite natural resources the way we do now.

Maybe it could happen but I have some serious doubts.

I don't think I'm a pessimist. I think I'm a realist.

It would take at least one hundred years of hardcore population control to get the global population back down to where everyone could more or less have the standard of living that Western Civilization currently enjoys now and be sustainable. That would have to include some major technological advances that would allow us to continue to live the way we do but without burning through the finite natural resources the way we do now.

Maybe it could happen but I have some serious doubts.

you've got to believe more in technology, i mean advances in technology.. oil tech is so primitive! it needs to be left behind. cars don't make sense: a 2 ton carcass burning oil to bring ONE person to a close by destination, not mention hoours stopped in traffic while burning gas.
quit the oil, plastics, meat (develop an alternative. genetically it will be so simple) and wood(this one i will miss) and we are golden.
problem is humans and the tendency to be perverse, selfish, mean.. cities won't be fun anymore. what about outerspace? doable in the near future...
i wouldn't call the end of civilization so quick.

Think roman empire.Rome fell, so what. It wasn't the end of the world and most historians now will tell you that the "Dark Ages" weren't all that dark. America may "fall" but western civ will continue on, evolving and growing as it has for the past 1500 years.

you've got to believe more in technology, i mean advances in technology.. oil tech is so primitive! it needs to be left behind. cars don't make sense: a 2 ton carcass burning oil to bring ONE person to a close by destination, not mention hoours stopped in traffic while burning gas.
quit the oil, plastics, meat (develop an alternative. genetically it will be so simple) and wood(this one i will miss) and we are golden.
problem is humans and the tendency to be perverse, selfish, mean.. cities won't be fun anymore. what about outerspace? doable in the near future...
i wouldn't call the end of civilization so quick.


Technology is a wonderful thing as long as someone invests in it and then actually invents something. At this point in time I see far too much short term thinking in corporate management, as in do what ever it takes to raise the stock price in the short term to benefit the managements pay package and to hell with long term growth. I see the obsession with celebrity and fifteen minute personalities as the harbengers of doom for us as a culture. Think roman empire.

Rome fell, so what. It wasn't the end of the world and most historians now will tell you that the "Dark Ages" weren't all that dark. America may "fall" but western civ will continue on, evolving and growing as it has for the past 1500 years.

Everyone wants to live like the Romans... er... westerners/Americans, even most of the anti-west Muslims. The statistcs show that when people become educated professionals and have 2.1 babies or less they tend to consume 10x more. On a global scale we all need to have more like 1.5 kids and expend far less of the earth's finite resources.

Technology is a wonderful thing as long as someone invests in it and then actually invents something. At this point in time I see far too much short term thinking in corporate management, as in do what ever it takes to raise the stock price in the short term to benefit the managements pay package and to hell with long term growth. I see the obsession with celebrity and fifteen minute personalities as the harbengers of doom for us as a culture. Think roman empire.

yes but empires don't fall over moral issues ONLY. as long as there is military force to back up the stupidity, obscenity, depravation and spiritual misery, it will go on and on..

Everyone wants to live like the Romans... er... westerners/Americans, even most of the anti-west Muslims. The statistcs show that when people become educated professionals and have 2.1 babies or less they tend to consume 10x more. On a global scale we all need to have more like 1.5 kids and expend far less of the earth's finite resources.Mother nature is the great equalizer. It will control our population and resource usage if we don't but that doesn't mean that civilization will end.

/1.5 kids globally will doom us to extinction. IIRC, 2.0 is breakeven.

you've got to believe more in technology, i mean advances in technology.. oil tech is so primitive! it needs to be left behind. cars don't make sense: a 2 ton carcass burning oil to bring ONE person to a close by destination, not mention hoours stopped in traffic while burning gas.
quit the oil, plastics, meat (develop an alternative. genetically it will be so simple) and wood(this one i will miss) and we are golden.
problem is humans and the tendency to be perverse, selfish, mean.. cities won't be fun anymore. what about outerspace? doable in the near future...
i wouldn't call the end of civilization so quick.


The glorification of technology has been around for more than 100 years and has often been portrayed and perceived as our saviour without much critical thinking behind it. Tech. can be a force for good but the fact remains those techs. that were supposed to save us have actually been a major part of what has pointed us to the situation we're head toward now.

Humans and human nature are at the heart of the problem.

Colonization of space on meaningfull level is way way off. In fact the sooner it happens the more that it will trash this planet beyond recovery for human existence. The space program such as it is even now is very damaging to the environment we need to live in. I'm amazed by the denial and lack dialogue about that fact alone. It's a matter of fact I think that human capacity for denial is one of the main reasons why I think that the human race is most likely doomed. Nothing lasts forever and our inability to acknowledge that fact as it relates to the human race is the ultimate example of that denial.

Besides, who really wants to live in outer space? Any place where you can't ride a bike is now place for me. I'd rather be dead.

Mother nature is the great equalizer. It will control our population and resource usage if we don't but that doesn't mean that civilization will end.

Perhaps but don't think you have the entire formula and so I doubt the sum/outcome.
Anyway I'd love to debate this one but I'm a busy endangered specimen today.


/1.5 kids globally will doom us to extinction. IIRC, 2.0 is breakeven.

I.5 for about 100 years then a 2.1 replacement rate to be more precise.

Besides, who really wants to live in other space? Any place where you can't ride a bike is now place for me. I'd rather be dead.Aw, come on.... think of the great air you'd be able to get on the Moon or Mars!

Perhaps but don't think you have the entire formula and so I doubt the sum/outcome.
Anyway I'd love to debate this one but I'm a busy endangered specimen today.




I.5 for about 100 years then a 2.1 replacement rate to be more precise.
I'd like to dig into it a little more myself.... I've looked briefly at population stats in the past but need to educate myself more.

How long until the word Western Civilization loses it's current meaning?

The glorification of technology has been around for more than 100 years and has often been portrayed and perceived as our saviour without much critical thinking behind it. Tech. can be a force for good but the fact remains those techs. that were supposed to save us have actually been a main component what has pointed us to the situation we're head toward now.

Humans and human nature are at the heart of the problem.

Colonization of space on meaningfull level is way way off. In fact the sooner it happens the more that it will trash this planet beyond recovery for human existence. The space program such as it is even now is very damaging to the environment we need to live in. I'm amazed by the denial and lack dialogue about that fact alone. It's a matter of fact I think that human capacity for denial is one of the main reasons why I think that the human race is most likely doomed. Nothing lasts forever and our inability to acknowledge that fact as it relates to the human race is the ultimate example of that denial.

Besides, who really wants to live in outer space? Any place where you can't ride a bike is now place for me. I'd rather be dead.

i thought it over and it became clear what you guys are alarmed about.. since i'm no in america i don't feel the pressure or see the continuous waste of resources.. yup, moral will become a bigger issue again. w/ the decline of religion in the last 500 yrs, corruption and greed became easily justified. since the sixties, we see the emergence of a spiritual conscience. buddhism and other positive thinking oin one side but we have christiian fundamentalists and muslims preaching for the apocalypse on the other.
morals could help us get a grip over the situation,. it won't be as fun as we have ti now but corruption in the management of nature's resources should end. the amazon is being sacked an d destroyed albeit the laws protecting the forest.. corruption.
and there is technology and science acting immorally: creating means of destruction instead of ways to live w/ responsability.
and the media pplays along, blinding evrybody w/ sexism, violence and "entertainment".
it pays more to be destructive, immoral, corrupt.. till when?

I think that would be a great idea
- M. Ghandi

I hope it declines, but not too much. It seems to work here, and in Europe. Not so successful in terms of export, though, at least when it's been forced. Asia is on the rise, and I suspect China, Southeast Asia, and India will gain considerable influence in the years to come.

multiculturalism IS western society.. communism too. hey steam, was karl marx asian, african or native american?? i see: western society is the elizabeth arden circuit.

How long until the word Western Civilization loses it's current meaning?When it has spread around the world.

The dynamism of humans, when freed from artificial restraints and rewarded for their risks, is the most powerful force in the world. When faced with crisis, the response of humanity is to overcome adversity. We see a depletion in natural resources as a roadblock, but others see it as opportunity. We are, as so many like to point out, very dependent on oil imports. Yet in the northwest corner of Wyoming lie coal reserves that are estimated as lasting as long as the next 4,000 years. Technology exists today that converts coal to gasoline and diesel. Its being discussed in the Wyoming legislature this very day. But that's one example out of countless examples of the ingenuity of humanity.

My faith in humanity leads me to believe that there aren't any problems that we can't overcome. We have no ideas what we will be faced with over the next 100 years, and we have even less of an idea of how we will solve them. But give people freedom and incentive to make things work, and they will.

Some men see things as they are and ask "why?". I see things as they might be and ask "why not?". Wish I'd said that.

When it has spread around the world.


Perhaps even before and certainly when start building condos in space.

The dynamism of humans, when freed from artificial restraints and rewarded for their risks, is the most powerful force in the world. When faced with crisis, the response of humanity is to overcome adversity. We see a depletion in natural resources as a roadblock, but others see it as opportunity. We are, as so many like to point out, very dependent on oil imports. Yet in the northwest corner of Wyoming lie coal reserves that are estimated as lasting as long as the next 4,000 years. Technology exists today that converts coal to gasoline and diesel. Its being discussed in the Wyoming legislature this very day. But that's one example out of countless examples of the ingenuity of humanity.

My faith in humanity leads me to believe that there aren't any problems that we can't overcome. We have no ideas what we will be faced with over the next 100 years, and we have even less of an idea of how we will solve them. But give people freedom and incentive to make things work, and they will.

Some men see things as they are and ask "why?". I see things as they might be and ask "why not?". Wish I'd said that.

I would like to believe all of that but we'll see... well actually we won't... I think.

Timely news.


Leonard David
LiveScience Senior Writer
LiveScience.com 2 hours, 36 minutes ago

A population milestone is about to be set on this jam-packed planet.

On Saturday, Feb. 25, at 7:16 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, the population here on this good Earth is projected to hit 6.5 billion people.

Along with this forecast, an analysis by the International Programs Center at the U.S.
Census Bureau points to another factoid, Robert Bernstein of the Bureau's Public Information Center advised LiveScience. Mark this on your calendar: Some six years from now, on Oct. 18, 2012 at 4:36 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time, the Earth will be home to 7 billion folks.

These are estimates, of course, but clear trends emerge from the data behind them.

Population profile

A report issued by the Bureau in March 2004 noted that world population hit the 6-billion mark in June 1999. "This figure is over 3.5 times the size of the Earth's population at the beginning of the 20th century and roughly double its size in 1960," the study explained.

Even more striking is that the time required for the global population to grow from 5 billion to 6 billion—just a dozen years—was shorter than the interval between any of the previous billions.

On average, 4.4 people are born every second.

The population on Earth today is nearly four times the number in 1900 [graph]. Behind that phenomenal global increase is a vast gulf in birth and death rates among the world's countries. But according to population experts, this gulf is not a simple divide that perpetuates the status quo among the have and have-not nations.

Birth dearth

"What is worrisome about this demographic divide is not the differences among nations' population growth rates, but the disparities associated with these trends ... disparities in living standards, health, and economic prospects," explained Mary Kent, co-author along with Carl Haub, of a Population Reference Bureau report issued last month titled "Global Demographic Divide."

Kent, editor of the Population Bulletin, and Haub, a senior demographer at the Population Reference Bureau, reported that news of declining population in Europe fueled concern about a global "birth dearth," but there is continuing population growth in developing countries. The question, they asked, is which demographic trend is the world facing?

"The reality is that both trends are occurring," Haub said. "The dramatic fertility decline during the 20th century coincided with improved health, access to family planning, economic development, and urbanization."

Kent and Haub also reported that most countries will experience population growth through 2050, as the world adds a projected 3 billion more people to the total.

Remarkably, despite the many new developments over the past 50 years, one fact looks very much the same, explained Kent and Haub: Populations are growing most rapidly where such growth can be afforded the least—an observation that has changed little over time, they said.