Ok. So I am in this bible study through my church. One of the group members asked that we study this passage about "wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and famines..." all to know if we are in the "end times." I try to keep an open mind, but I'm tiring of all this End Times Christian pop culture talk. Somehow I think to ask the question is to miss the point.

So I'm curious to know if there is a way to determine if weather & earthquakes and wars are really more common today than other times over the past 2,000 years. Is there a way to know this with any sense of confidence? This should stir up some interesting conversations.

Ok. So I am in this bible study through my church. One of the group members asked that we study this passage about "wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and famines..." all to know if we are in the "end times." I try to keep an open mind, but I'm tiring of all this End Times Christian pop culture talk. Somehow I think to ask the question is to miss the point.

So I'm curious to know if there is a way to determine if weather & earthquakes and wars are really more common today than other times over the past 2,000 years. Is there a way to know this with any sense of confidence? This should stir up some interesting conversations.

I think this post is going to end up in PO.

2000 yrs is too short a window. The earth is something like 4 billion years old. The cycles are more attenuated than your post suggests.

I think this post is going to end up in PO.

2000 yrs is too short a window. The earth is something like 4 billion years old. The cycles are more attenuated than your post suggests.

No, No, No, the earth is exactly 5,283 years, 57 days, 4 hours, 23 minutes old.

Ok. So I am in this bible study through my church. One of the group members asked that we study this passage about "wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and famines..." all to know if we are in the "end times." I try to keep an open mind, but I'm tiring of all this End Times Christian pop culture talk. Somehow I think to ask the question is to miss the point.

So I'm curious to know if there is a way to determine if weather & earthquakes and wars are really more common today than other times over the past 2,000 years. Is there a way to know this with any sense of confidence? This should stir up some interesting conversations.


I'll stick to the question.

Q: Is there a way to know this with any sense of confidence?

A: or rather, Opinion: I doubt there are any more of either. Most likely, fewer wars than ever before. But consider the passage again... I think "rumors" is the key word. With almost instant world wide coverage, never before has it been more true than today.

So, the Bible is correct. We are closer today than we were yesterday...and there are sure more rumors and certainly more coverage of everything than ever before....

No, No, No, the earth is exactly 5,283 years, 57 days, 4 hours, 23 minutes old.
you're not assuming all viewers are in the US are you?? :D

Ok. So I am in this bible study through my church. One of the group members asked that we study this passage about "wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and famines..." all to know if we are in the "end times." I try to keep an open mind, but I'm tiring of all this End Times Christian pop culture talk. Somehow I think to ask the question is to miss the point.

So I'm curious to know if there is a way to determine if weather & earthquakes and wars are really more common today than other times over the past 2,000 years. Is there a way to know this with any sense of confidence? This should stir up some interesting conversations.methinks not. I think it has more to do with more being written down/publicized & not being over-romanticized.

As far as earthquakes go, there are hundreds of earthquakes per day. Most are not big enough to be noticed except by machines. In an average year, just in the state of California, there are about 37,000 earthquakes recorded and analyzed.

It would be nice if the bible specified the magnitude of the earthquakes you should beware of, and which magnitude scale to use.

Not to insult your church but find a more scholarly place to study scripture, it seems to me. Discussing the Revelation of John as actual end-times prophesy is indeed a pop culture phenomenon of the last 30-40 years (first popularized in the 70s by Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth"). You don't hear that kind of pap in even the most conservative academic religious settings.

Perhaps I bristle most strongly about this stuff because I grew up immersed in it.

you're not assuming all viewers are in the US are you?? :D

Ain't it the new Jerusalem?


okay, sorry, I guess that this will doom this thread to PO.

What places are you speaking of? I'm in Central, IL. Redneck centril!! I'm lucky I found a small group that doesn't wear camoflauge and thinks a good chew is a nice social activity. I'm doing the best with what I've got here.

What places are you speaking of? I'm in Central, IL. Redneck centril!! I'm lucky I found a small group that doesn't wear camoflauge and thinks a good chew is a nice social activity. I'm doing the best with what I've got here.

In that case, have a little fun with them. Tell them you think the rapture already happened, and you guys were left behind.

searching for rational reasons to make an emotional decision?

Faith is not about reason, it's about an emotional leap, isn't it? Once you make that emotional leap, the next unprovable is that the texts that made it to the bible (as opposed to the one's that didn't) were selected by the hand of God, and represent the true word. Finally, you must make an emotional faith based leap to accept that the translators were guided by the hand of God.

After all that, what does the study get you? You've already gotten all your answers, haven't you?

I'm really not being argumentative here, I just don't get it.

Len

searching for rational reasons to make an emotional decision?

Faith is not about reason, it's about an emotional leap, isn't it? Once you make that emotional leap, the next unprovable is that the texts that made it to the bible (as opposed to the one's that didn't) were selected by the hand of God, and represent the true word. Finally, you must make an emotional faith based leap to accept that the translators were guided by the hand of God.

After all that, what does the study get you? You've already gotten all your answers, haven't you?

I'm really not being argumentative here, I just don't get it.

Len

I'm not sure what you are asking here. I assume very little...that is the key to all inductive study. You start with no knowledge...regarless of how much or little you know. :) A lot of people run around with half-baked ideas about what the bible does or doesn't say because they read it all by "faith." Faith is about believing that God is. And faith does not negate the value of further study. Three astronomers/astrologers, found the Messiah at his birth by a combination of scientific study and scriptural study...assuming one believes in both the Messiah, the Three Wise Men and God in general.

I'm not sure what you are asking here. I assume very little...that is the key to all inductive study. You start with no knowledge...regarless of how much or little you know. :) A lot of people run around with half-baked ideas about what the bible does or doesn't say because they read it all by "faith." Faith is about believing that God is. And faith does not negate the value of further study. Three astronomers/astrologers, found the Messiah at his birth by a combination of scientific study and scriptural study...assuming one believes in both the Messiah, the Three Wise Men and God in general.


well, that's it...yep.

In that case, have a little fun with them. Tell them you think the rapture already happened, and you guys were left behind.

ROTFLMFAO!

I'm not sure what you are asking here. I assume very little...that is the key to all inductive study. You start with no knowledge...regarless of how much or little you know. :) A lot of people run around with half-baked ideas about what the bible does or doesn't say because they read it all by "faith." Faith is about believing that God is. And faith does not negate the value of further study. Three astronomers/astrologers, found the Messiah at his birth by a combination of scientific study and scriptural study...assuming one believes in both the Messiah, the Three Wise Men and God in general.
the "other" gospels, and how the decisions were made to exclude them & when? or is your study limited to what has been included? i.e. start with an acceptance that the right texts were included.

Do you study, the translating potential errors?

If you assume very little, then the study you undertake is broad indeed. If you assume that the New Testament as presented is the accepted word of God, than you assume much.

I just finished reading "Beyond Belief : The Secret Gospel of Thomas" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375501568/sr=8-)2/qid=1141758917/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-3495679-6108852?%5Fencoding=UTF8

and it gave me a much clearer picture of the possible explanation for the inclusion of certain texts and the exclusion of others. It is worth a critical read if in fact you are assuming little.

Len

There is such a thing a drivel and I do attempt to avoid it. I began to read today and account of how the mining of oil and coal are causing many natural catastrophe's. Hehe. Drivel.

Is this book indeed worth it? If so, then I will read it! Books don't frighten me. What does firghten me is time waisted fighting through poorly formulated and badly communicated ideas. By other gospels, I am not sure what you mean. I am not one who believes in scriptural inerrancy. When I did believe in this, my faith was an extremely fragile thing--as well as somewhat limited. I believe God takes me as I am, but I have more freedom when I am seeking knowedge of him and not looking for a few rules to follow. This, however, is a conversation for another day. For now, I'm in a pinch and need to prep for tonights "end times" bible study. Or perhaps, I'll just eat cake and keep quiet. I managed to acquire a new digit yesterday. It was fun for the first 28 years. Now its just getting old. Har har.

it doesn't have anything to do with the bible. Do a search on "Peak Oil"

I think most studies of Revelation are tackled from the wrong point of view. The important part is what happens NOT when it happens.

The whole idea of prophesy is you don't understand it until it is fulfilled. Everyone gets absorbed with WHEN the tribulation will start it's seven year length. I don't think it will be too hard to identify when blood flows the height of a horse's bridle and a third of the world population is killed.

There is such a thing a drivel and I do attempt to avoid it. I began to read today and account of how the mining of oil and coal are causing many natural catastrophe's. Hehe. Drivel.

Is this book indeed worth it? If so, then I will read it! Books don't frighten me. What does firghten me is time waisted fighting through poorly formulated and badly communicated ideas. By other gospels, I am not sure what you mean. I am not one who believes in scriptural inerrancy. When I did believe in this, my faith was an extremely fragile thing--as well as somewhat limited. I believe God takes me as I am, but I have more freedom when I am seeking knowedge of him and not looking for a few rules to follow. This, however, is a conversation for another day. For now, I'm in a pinch and need to prep for tonights "end times" bible study. Or perhaps, I'll just eat cake and keep quiet. I managed to acquire a new digit yesterday. It was fun for the first 28 years. Now its just getting old. Har har.
so it's hard to say if this would be a good read or not. That being said, I found it to be very informative about a time in our history when followers of Jesus were seemingly at a crossroads as to what exactly to believe. It postulates about how and why the original 4 gospels were selected to be the basis for both the new testament and the core beliefs of the emerging religion and why other "gospels" were deemed heretical.

If nothing else, it points out some of the historical dynamics that shaped christianity. In the end, one could believe that man drove the decisions based on their own needs or that God was guiding it.....in other words, faith.

I'd read it if you are interested in such things.

Len


PS. Happy B-Day

I think most studies of Revelation are tackled from the wrong point of view. The important part is what happens NOT when it happens.

The whole idea of prophesy is you don't understand it until it is fulfilled. Everyone gets absorbed with WHEN the tribulation will start it's seven year length. I don't think it will be too hard to identify when blood flows the height of a horse's bridle and a third of the world population is killed.

Do you think we missed the end times already? So then does that mean we are all in heaven now?? Or is it hell? Yesterday it was like heaven. Today, not so much. June, heaven. January, the 9th level of hell.

Around here it has been clear and cold the past two days, that would classify as purgatory.

I agree about not understanding phrophesies only in hind-sight. That rings 100% true to me. When talking with Christians who are trying to discipher all of the mysteries of Revelation in one evening (like tonight), I usually point out that 97% of Judea rejected Jesus based on their own interpretations of Messianic prophecy.

Here are links to two Fresh Air interviews you ought to listen to. The first is with Bart Ehrman (chair of religious studies at UNC Chapel Hill) who wrote Misquoting Jesus: The Battle for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew. The second is with a Jewish bible scholar.

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13&prgDate=12-14-2005&view=storyview

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundowns/rundown.php?prgId=13&prgDate=01-30-2006&view=storyview

No MESSAGE!!

No MESSAGE!!

Bible -- I think that interview talks about OT but also touches on NT as well. The est is the Ehrman interview. Compelling stuff!

What places are you speaking of? I'm in Central, IL. Redneck centril!! I'm lucky I found a small group that doesn't wear camoflauge and thinks a good chew is a nice social activity. I'm doing the best with what I've got here.


ROLF. I understand!

So I'm curious to know if there is a way to determine if weather & earthquakes and wars are really more common today than other times over the past 2,000 years. Is there a way to know this with any sense of confidence? This should stir up some interesting conversations.
There are some pretty good ways to find out about some of these. The bottom line is that there has not been any increase in the frequency or magnitude of natural events, such as earthquakes, etc. over the past several hundred thousand years and more. Neither has there been any signficant increase in famine or plague since Jesus's time. Over the past few centuries, both famine and plague have actually declined.

More people are killed by natural hazards than in the past because a growing world population has pushed more people to live in high risk areas than ever before, but the frequency with which terrible events strike these regions is no greater than it's been since people started walking the earth.

If you're interested in how people study earthquakes etc. in the distant past, there are whole subspecialties of geology (paleoseismology, etc.) that cover this. Basically, earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, etc. all leave clear signs in the geologic record for those who know how to see them. Any good introductory geology textbook will give some of the techniques used to study these things.

I recently attended a colloquium on paleotempestology---the study of ancient hurricanes. This is not a very well-developed field, but there are ways to determine whether a hurricane passsed over a certain place in the past by studying oxygen isotope ratios in coral reefs or tree rings.

Both famines and plagues are actually much less common today than in the past, thanks to advances in technology and global commerce. Jeffrey Sachs's book, "The End of Poverty" argues that we have done so well fighting plagues and famines with technology that we could even hope to end poverty altogether within the next generation.

Studies of ancient famines is discussed in Jared Diamond's "Collapse" and Joel Cohen's "How Many People Can The Earth Support." There's also some excellent discussion of specific famines several thousand years ago in part 1 of Elizabeth Kolbert's three-part series on global warming in The New Yorker last year. Another scholar who has written extensively (and very readably by non-scholars) on historical patterns of weather and famine is Bryan Fagan ("Floods, Famines, and Emperors," "The Long Summer," "The Little Ice Age," and so on). Less easily readable, but a very rigorous scientific study is "Climate, History, and the Modern World" by H.H. Lamb (Lamb's idea of the "modern" world means the last 10,000 years).

Global warming does threaten to change a lot of this by turning fertile, productive land into desert, drying up fresh water that peope count on to drink and irrigate their fields, spreading tropical diseases throughout the world, and devastating biodiversity, on which our agriculture depends, but these are just possibillities in the future, not observable catastrophes in the present.

Hope this helps.

Not to insult your church but find a more scholarly place to study scripture, it seems to me. Discussing the Revelation of John as actual end-times prophesy is indeed a pop culture phenomenon of the last 30-40 years (first popularized in the 70s by Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth").
Actually, Jesus and his contemporary followers believed they lived in the end times. Again, around the year 1000 and during the plagues of the 1300s many serious scholars as well as the public thought that the end times were nigh. With the Renaissance millennarian talk died down for several centuries, but it's wrong to assert that this sort of thought is completely alien to the church before recent times.

One of the biggest problems Christianity faces is how to reconcile Jesus's teachings with the fact that the world did not end within a generation or two of his birth. For the most part, Christian scholars have decided to read much of the Gospels as metaphorical rather than literal prophecy, so they don't have to take literally Jesus's instructions that people stop working, give away all their worldly possessions, stop resisting evil, and throw themselves on God's mercy and benevolence until the Judgment.