Came across this tidbit from the University of Washington. Sad.

http://www.charlesadler.com/News/NPViewArticle.asp?cmd=view&articleid=979

usually kill folks. and since a good portion of US History and our place in the world is where it is due to war, you are gonna wind up with some killers in places of esteem.
War is ugly but sometimes it is a necessary evil. sometimes it is not.

I would have thought that most people would look at someone with his record as bona fide hero. Especially in the context or WWII where the issues were clear and the eventual results of not acting would also be clear.

I am shocked that someone would seemingly carry enough naivete or hatred or both to call down a bona fide hero of her own alma mater and more importantly her nation in a clear cut conflict.

He answered a call and did his duty and she feels he is unworthy of honour because he "killed people" ??

Seems mighty strange - makes me glad I left the campus behind years ago - campus politics engaged my gagging instinct 20 years ago - I can only imagine what I would be doing if I were still there.

Thou shalt not kill. It is a very simple proposition, and it is easy to understand. You and I might disagree with it as a universal statement, but many religious and moral figures have held to a universal principle of nonviolence.

The student sounds like one of those wacko liberals that get way too much press. She's certainly entitled to her opinion, but it doesn't seem rooted in reality.

Thou shalt not kill. It is a very simple proposition, and it is easy to understand. You and I might disagree with it as a universal statement, but many religious and moral figures have held to a universal principle of nonviolence.


And right after the Israelites received the Ten Commandments, Charleton Heston led them on a campaign to secure a homeland at the cost of many, many lives.

The student sounds like one of those wacko liberals that get way too much press. She's certainly entitled to her opinion, but it doesn't seem rooted in reality.

Well put. And I recall that I had bits of extremist myopia in my college days, so I could forgive it except it is fodder for those who can't distinguish her brand of cluelessness from true progressive political discourse.

Those who cannot differentiate WWII from Vietnam (or Iraq), or those who cannot distinguish heroes of Guadalcanal from members of the Manson Family (lumping all "killers" together) are an embarrassment to left-of-center folk like me who try to have informed opinions about when military force is justified.

I hate to sound like an old fogie but maybe she needs a trip to the memorials at Pearl Harbor and Auschwitz before she can just lump all WWII heroes into the trash bin of "killers."

The one common thread that WW2, Vietnam and Iraq all have is that they all involved American military forces and these forces all are made up of our sons and daughters. If there is some fault with any of these conflicts, that fault can be laid at the feet of the political leaders that committed us to these wars. We fought WW2 in a patriotic fervor at home. There was a conscious effort not to do anything that might harm the war effort and put American boys (and girls) in jeopardy. That effort included our media sources. That carried through untill Vietnam when the frustration with the seemingly endless conflict spilled over on to our soldiers. We are not the same people and skepticism is more honored in some circles than military heroism. It may be unfair, but to those of us who have never been to a university, it seems that this is one of the attitudes learned there. That could be much the same as the Iraq situation in that negative events are more newsworthy than any more normal life. That is what this young lady represents to me, the culmination of efforts to make war an unacceptable option and to insure that one never trusts government to be honest.

as they've always done a bang up job. They've had some issues (MaLai, Abu Ghraib) but IMHO it is working class (lower rank) soldiers taking the fall for following orders which is chickensh!t.

one doesn't trust the govt because they have proven themselves untrustworthy. that isn't the media, the university system or anyone elses fault but the scumbags running the show (across the spectrum).

so since I respect our troops so much I think we shouldlisten to them. The majority just wanna come home. Oh and we should listen to our ex Central Command officer who says the SOBs at the top need to be held accountable. You know the chickenhawk guys that didn't listen to the soldiers (Generals are soldiers ya know) and went inot this foray half cocked, ignorantly overconfident, and under false auspices.

We are not the same people and skepticism is more honored in some circles than military heroism. It may be unfair, but to those of us who have never been to a university, it seems that this is one of the attitudes learned there. .

Your right it isn't fair. Kind of like the girl spouting off about something she has never experienced either. She is a stupid overly zealous girl in a statistical scattershot...she would be outside the norm and rounded off. This is only "news" in the sense that it is so outside the boundries of what most would consider rational thought.

At the same time...she has every right to do whatever she will within the constitution...she can speak out, organize, petition etc. Most likely she will be villified for her stance and probably look back at her college days 20 or so years hence and find that her views are somewhat modified with time.

The man was a hero...whether he killed people, saved the lives of his comrades or gave shelter to people earmarked for extinction...he deserves respect...imho.

...of the infamous Black Sheep Squadron. Initially he flew with Claire Chenault's Flying Tigers, he returned to the Marines when the U.S. went to war with Japan. Boyington spent time in a POW camp, won the Medal of Honor, and went on to write his memoirs, detailing his exploits, his imprisonment, and his battle with the bottle. What's not to like?

Perhaps our young firebrand wasn't a big fan of the cheesy TV series that starred Robert Conrad as Pappy.:D

teaching kids to be skeptics. To question authority. To not take anything on face value. No wonder Jefferson was such a big fan.
Snake here's a couple things they teach in college that you missed:

a) Manifest destiny was just a pretty TP for Native Genocide and forced relocation.

b) The Bible was written and edited by men with the motives of men

c) The Soviet Union wasn't communist.It was a totalitarian state in lefty dress up

d) Big Business when left to it's own devices will usually lead to bad things (The depression, lakes catching fire, Pinkertons shooting and beating their workers, forced labor,etc...)

e) Sen.McCarthy was a huge A-Hole

f) Our Govt and religious leaders lie alot

Well, McCarthy WAS a huge A hole.

It's REALLY hard to reply to PM's when people's email boxes are full!

Well, McCarthy WAS a huge A hole.

so he was a NeoCon blowhard who used a nations fear to intimidate and crush his opposition. He used the phantom fear of commies to go beyond the constitution and ruin people's lives, control the media and allow his viewpoint to gain more power.

Now if you attended college you'd have the reasoning ability to look at all that and see the similarities with today.

so he was a NeoCon blowhard who used a nations fear to intimidate and crush his opposition. He used the phantom fear of commies to go beyond the constitution and ruin people's lives, control the media and allow his viewpoint to gain more power.

Now if you attended college you'd have the reasoning ability to look at all that and see the similarities with today.

I didn't though, so it's fortunate I have you to point them out to me.

and to insure that one never trusts government to be honest.

When, in our lifetime, has the government given us reason to believe it is honest?

Your right it isn't fair. Kind of like the girl spouting off about something she has never experienced either. She is a stupid overly zealous girl in a statistical scattershot...she would be outside the norm and rounded off. This is only "news" in the sense that it is so outside the boundries of what most would consider rational thought.

At the same time...she has every right to do whatever she will within the constitution...she can speak out, organize, petition etc. Most likely she will be villified for her stance and probably look back at her college days 20 or so years hence and find that her views are somewhat modified with time.

The man was a hero...whether he killed people, saved the lives of his comrades or gave shelter to people earmarked for extinction...he deserves respect...imho.

I wonder though, this was just one woman in a student senate (as we all pretty much know student senates hardly ever do anything anyway, and don't hold any power) what the other student senators said about the memorial to this hero? They don't say anything about that in this little article, but villify, right, wrong, or indifferent, this one woman. What did the others say about the proposed memorial? That's what I would really want to know. One opinion doesn't mean that it's not going to happen.

After doing a quick search, the minutes from the student senate meeting were published on the internet.

http://senate.asuw.org/secretary/minutes/senate/12/02-07-2006.pdf

Turns out the quote attributed to Ms. Edwards was actually not her actual words, they were placed in the minutes by whoever was recording the minutes. Check out the link, not to mention, it appears during the entire discussion, that was the only statement she made about it. Read on folks. Appears to be much adieu about, nothing...

If you believe that they are all out to get you and that you can't trust them on anything, you must have a truely nervous existance.

and he was highly responsible for creating it.
so lets see in our lifetime we've had
50's -McCarthy-ism (yer fer us or agin us V_1) use phantom fear to curb civil rights and silence the voice of opposition
60's - Viet Nam (bad war sold on false bill of goods and phantom national fear)
70's - Watergate (Major Presidential Abuse of Power and Constitutional Crisis)
80's - Iran Contra,war on drugs (yer fer us or agin us V_2)bad war sold on false bill of goods and phantom national fear used to curb civil rights
Iran Contra, though brushed under the rug was again a major Presidential abuse of power/ constitutional crisis
90's - guy lied about a blowie, actually a party so petty and partisan that it wastes a hundred million dollars and 6 years on a draw sr-traws witch hunt to defame a succesful sitting President.
00's - Iraq (bad war sold on false bill of goods and phantom national fear used to curb civil rights (yer fer us or agin us V_3) (Major Presidential Abuse of Power and Constitutional Crisis)

so in the last 60 freakin years Snake, show me where they've shown themselves trustworthy? Again after reading posts like yours, I cannot believe the level of Naivete.

If you believe that they are all out to get you and that you can't trust them on anything, you must have a truely nervous existance.

The question was, when, in our lifetime, have they given us a reason to believe they were honest? They've given us ample reasons to not believe they are.

I believe the reasons we are in this war, I believe this nation needed and deserved a tax cut. In general, I believe they are following the policies I voted for them to follow and support. There is dishonesty in all walks of life. Criminal activity at that level and in the public eye is spectacular but not outside the range of human nature. I disagree with most of the points made on this forum to illustrate the inherent dishonesty of this or any adminstration or of this government in general, whether controlled by Republicans or Democrats. It is far more likely that they will be competancy challenged than that they are lacking in integrity. There may even be good reason to suspect the sanity of individuals in Washington and certainly there is a level of dishonesty. I just don't believe that it is the rule.

Delay isn't/wasn't incompetent, Duke, Cheney (I may give ya W) any of the PNACers, they knew what they were doing, the fact that they try to keep covering it up just illustrates it,it is criminal. Same for Johnson and Nixon,McCarthy.

Snake I gotta figure (I'm assuming you are not in the 1-2% Elite) that any tax cut you may have received will cost you more out of pocket in lost services and that future debt created by this cut during wartime will cost all of us but 'the have's and have mores' exponetially more than what relief we received.

I'll say it again, I doubt anyone on this board makes enough dough to qualify as a W 'base'. He's serving them by fooling the naive. Just like this immigration thing, nothing but divide and conquer in an election year. They need to split working class up, make them forget the class war and obfuscate it behind a culture one so again more folks will vote against their own self interests.

I just don't believe that it is the rule.

I believe that they all lack integrity. Votes are bought and sold with regularity. To think that a representative votes based on contributions is an abomination. Now, you will say that's just how it is. I accept that. But I won't for a second trust anyone with that little integrity.

For the record, I don't think they are "out to get me". I think I'm not even on their radar screen. The only ones they are in it for is themselves.

I would more readily trust Bill Gates in office or any other of the uber-rich. They typically are much more intelligent, philanthropic and less prone to bribery.

Politics is politics, the behavior you mention is the norm and they don't see it as selling out. I have known people in the industry I work in who were into kickback. It was always illegal but was an accepted practice for decades. It may have cost the industry a bit but some of those people were also very good at their jobs and looked out for their responsibilities and considered themselves company men. It did not limit their effectivness.

I believe the reasons we are in this war, I believe this nation needed and deserved a tax cut.

When should taxes be raised? In times of plenty you would say we should cut them. In times of bad economy, we should cut them to stimulate the economy. In times of war we should also have tax cuts. With a huge deficit, tax cuts.

So tell us, when should taxes be raised? When should taxes NOT be cut?

from a vendor and then using them (though they didn't provide the best service at the cheapest cost) because of it. So while he was lining his own pocket, the company was paying more and receiving less.(which in turn affects every pther employee) Is that ethical behavior? Is that acceptible? well at our company it wasn't,he was fired. This behavior is exactly what Duke was doing but the employees getting screwed was
1) us the taxpayers
2) the soldiers

that should be reprehensible enough but to make it worse the SOB wraps himself in Old Glory and says "He supports the troops unlike these Libbies". These guys are our leaders, it is so pathetic as your side impeached a standing leader because your side said "we hold our leadership to higher standards" and are now so hypocritically accepting of far worse behavior that has far more impact on every American.

Your frickin sliding scale ethics, moral relativism and partisan hypocrisy would be funny if it wasn't so blatantly sickening.

Don't give me that "your side , my side" sanctimonious sh*t. That is where the Democrats lose credibility, you are either a virgin or a *****, you can't be a "little bit" pregnant. These guys all sell their loyalty to get elected and then start the sale the day after elections so they can be reelected. What I said was that a bit of larceny doesn't mean incompetance. You hear the same litany from our politicians that I heard from the supervisers that took "perks" that went with their jobs. Some of them sucked, some of them were very good and all of them thought they were doing what was best for the company, just like our respective legislators. It's the system and it sucks. Some of the individuals that are involved do not suck and can be trusted on core issues that their constituancy are effected by.

Well, I can see her point. There are UW graduates in other worthy (in her view) occupations that have distinguished themselves. Instead of Boyington they could have erected a memorial to one of many other UW notables. Here are a few:

Mary Maxwell Gates - First female chairperson of United Way (1985-1987), Seattle community leader, philanthropist and mother of Bill Gates.

Michael P. Anderson - NASA Astronaut, crewmember in the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster

Waldo Semon - Inventor of vinyl and synthetic rubber.

Victor Mills - Inventor of disposable diapers.

Beverly Cleary - Illustrious author of children's books.

Tom Robbins - American author most famous for writing Even Cowgirls Get the Blues.

Richard Eberhart - American poet and recipient of the 1966 Pulitzer Prize and the 1977 National Book Award.

Warren Moon - Former National Football League quarterback and member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

Bruce Lee - Martial artist and actor.

And finally, my favorite:
Dawn Wells - Mary Ann of Gilligan's Island.

All of whom owe a dept of gratitude to Pappy Boyington and those like him. It was because of the killing he did to protect this country that he was being honored, not in spite of it. The "thousand yard stare" that battle veterans fall prey to and some never lose, is due as much to the things they do as to the things they see. War is an inhuman endeavor and those of us who don't have to experience that side of our nature owe immeasurable grattitude to those who do it for us. Ingrattitude is a Constitutional right, for which we can also thank them.

Never! Never!

When do you it would be a good idea to CUT them?

uh Pal it was your side that got on a sanctimonious pedestal and tried to impeach a sitting President for a non Impeachable Offense. remember "we understand this isn't a high crime but he lied under oath and we believe in absolute right and wrong"

so don't try to duck this.YOUR FREAKIN SIDE STARTED THIS AND I AIN'T LETTING YOU RUN FROM IT.

I'd love to drop it but see YOU GUYS MADE IT AN ISSUE and when it comes back to slap ya silly YA RUN FROM IT LIKE LITTLE WHINY SCHOOLGIRKLS.

see we're well aware that politicians do some things.It's why we don't trust any. It's also why we didn't think much of the BJ. But ya'll did and wasted years and lots of $ proving it
cause ya'll are the good guys bringing morality and integrity back to Govt.So your side put them on a pedestal, problem is it hurts more when ya fall off.

Again we democrats have our lying scumbags

You Republicans have lying, self righteous, fake patriot, fake men of faith,hypocritical scumbags.

When do you it would be a good idea to CUT them?

How about when we cut the DEBT in half, and are running a surplus? I'd be in full support of cutting taxes if the government's finances are in order. Do you run your personal finances like the government runs theirs? Spend way more than you take in, spend upwards of 10% of your income just to pay the interest on your debt?

So you think raising taxes to pay for fighting WWII was the wrong thing to do? I mean if raising taxes is NEVER good...

Politics is politics, the behavior you mention is the norm and they don't see it as selling out. I have known people in the industry I work in who were into kickback. It was always illegal but was an accepted practice for decades. It may have cost the industry a bit but some of those people were also very good at their jobs and looked out for their responsibilities and considered themselves company men. It did not limit their effectivness.

Wrong is wrong, effective or not.

All of whom owe a dept of gratitude to Pappy Boyington and those like him. It was because of the killing he did to protect this country that he was being honored, not in spite of it. The "thousand yard stare" that battle veterans fall prey to and some never lose, is due as much to the things they do as to the things they see. War is an inhuman endeavor and those of us who don't have to experience that side of our nature owe immeasurable grattitude to those who do it for us. Ingrattitude is a Constitutional right, for which we can also thank them.
I'm just saying there are people other than those who serve in the military that have made significant and perhaps more important contributions to humankind. And if the students want to honor someone who did not distinguish himself or herself militarily (GWB comes to mind ;) ), it's fine with me.

There's never a good time to raise taxes. Never. Come on. This type of blanket policy is both impractical and retarded. One size fits all thinking doesn't work in governing, or in life for that matter. There are waaaaay toooooo maaaany unknowns in society to think that way.

Can you imagine if someone said "there's never a good time to cut taxes?"

Please, seriously, I'm beggin' ya. Give me a reason to keep listening to what you have to say. I don't really agree, but mostly you make reasonable, non-attack driven points.

BT

Well, that was an intentionally negative statement, sort of a stereotype vindication. Of course there are times when taxes should be raised but I think before we do at this point, we need to do some reorganizing and adjust some income rates for inflation. We pay way too much of our income in one form of taxes or another. The rich get richer, the poor hold their own and the huge middle ground gets it in the shorts. Deductions for dependents should be doubled and we should adjust the income levels for inflation, then take a look at where we are and where the money can come from. Corporations should be paying a larger share, in that way, it gets passed on in a proportionate way. Sorry if I disappointed you. :)

Well I don't cut my household debt by demanding my boss pay it off either. I cut that debt by cutting spending.

Ok, it is NEVER a good idea to raise MY taxes. :)