I'm just a simple man, so maybe someone can explain the phenomenon to me. One of the clubs I belong to is huge and has a large cross section of riders. Many but not most people belong to any of a variety of racing clubs as well. There are usually several group rides scheduled each night leaving from locations scattered all across the metro area, so it is handy if I ever feel like a group ride. This club does NOT have a no-drop policy.

There are a few "hill rides" that attract a strange breed of rider: the type who always wear their racing club jersey, however they never actually race, except I know one of the guys actually did one TT last year. Anyway, for these riders, the purpose of the ride appears to be to drop as many as possible "attacking" on the hills, then never regroup. Again, this is not a race oriented club, and from a training perspective, I fail to see the benefit in not regrouping. For me, many of the rides seem like junk miles according to my HRM data (extended time spent in the no-man's land zone).

One of the problems is that this style of club ride is quite alienating to new members- although I don't know if it is any worse than those massive chaotic bike shop group rides that I've encountered on the roads. The other issue is for me, these types of rides do nothing constructive physically- they more or less are about maintaining a state of overtraining, so I've been spending my time elsewhere. Finally, in dropping everyone they can, it ends up being a little tiny clique ride, which flies in the face of the very purpose of a group ride. Seriously, you would think this were an informal race. Anyone else see this sort of club behavior? I really don't get it...

(BTW- not all the rides are like this- just a notable select few.)

that everybody else's style of riding is wrong. If there is a group that enjoys club riding to the extreme, let them. If you don't like it, don't ride with them.

TF

The very name of the thing begs a juvenile competitive response. You can't be too suprised : ) Never done it......they'd leave me gasping and I know it. However, the sheer volume of that clubs ride events outweighs any damage done to it's club "atmosphere" by their few testorone festivals.

BTW: I actually joined... : )

I'm not much of group rider. I seldom find a a ride forming at the end of my driveway at dawn, which is mostly when and where I have a ride window. I joined, so that like you when the yerning for a group calls I can find one any day on whatever side of town I like.

I went on a local LBS fast group ride last year. Ride leader walks up to me before the ride, looks me up and down like a side of beef, then says "this is an A ride.....you know !" He then proceeds to lead the group through almost every stop sign, blows red lights with competing automobiles in the lanes, rides on a bike prohibited expressway, and has us turn left at a "no left turn" sign. Made us all look bad. I've never seen or heard of that kind of behavior from your club.

Scot

Just let them go. You don't have to compete with them if you don't want to. Maybe they're just trying to get a good workout?

There are a few "hill rides" that attract a strange breed of rider: the type who always wear their racing club jersey, however they never actually race, except I know one of the guys actually did one TT last year. Anyway, for these riders, the purpose of the ride appears to be to drop as many as possible "attacking" on the hills, then never regroup. Again, this is not a race oriented club, and from a training perspective, I fail to see the benefit in not regrouping. For me, many of the rides seem like junk miles according to my HRM data (extended time spent in the no-man's land zone).

(BTW- not all the rides are like this- just a notable select few.)

Are you kidding?! THAT IS THEIR RACE.

I've seen this over and over, over the years from guys that don't race. They have to prove that they're better than someone, so they go hamer guys on the training rides.

If you're training for something, most of the mileage you're gonna ride is going to be solo. That way, you're not trying to keep up with the local "hammers" on a day that is scheduled to be an easy day.

If you just want to ride with the guys, but you know you're supposed to be doing intervals, and the pack's going easy, go OTF or OTB for your efforts, recover in the pack, then do it again. Use the group as a recovery period learning how to draft and not expend too much energy. Probably best to warn at least some of the pack that you're planning on doing intervals. That way they don't get ticked off at you...

HTH,

M

Established group rides usually have a certain predictable dynamic that allows you to choose whether to participate or not. Hammer rides or race simulation or "A" ride or whatever you want to call them are one variety. The problem isn't with the group ride but with your expectation that all group rides should be of a certain type.

I've experienced that too, and decided not to ride with them again. It wasn't an "A" ride (as I'm more of the "F" ride calibre) but I enjoyed the challenge of trying to keep up with them since they were much faster than me. But in search of the holy grail of keeping the average speed up, blowing through stop signs and traffic lights (and I just couldn't believe they were even adequately checking it was safe to go through) really put me off. About halfway into the ride, I just dropped back when I stopped at a red traffic light. I wasn't fast enough to catch up after that, and even if I was, I decided they weren't the people I enjoyed riding with.

In response to the original post, you can just choose not to ride or compete with them. Since the ride hasn't got a no drop policy, I'd think you select a group of riders that have more your idea of the ride and stick with them. Ultimately, it's up to you and you can't tell someone else how to ride, even if you think it doesn't make sense.

He then proceeds to lead the group through almost every stop sign, blows red lights with competing automobiles in the lanes, rides on a bike prohibited expressway, and has us turn left at a "no left turn" sign. Made us all look bad. I've never seen or heard of that kind of behavior from your club.Scot

Gears Tears and Fears... was my post THAT obvious, Scott? That is exactly what I was referring to- and certainly it isn't representative of all the rides. The ironic thing is that at the ride briefing they always "encourage" regrouping after the hills, at lights, etc... never happens.

on them. A couple of bikes working together should be able to pull off the front of the Chaos. (If that's your goal). Otherwise, find the group that fits your style an objectives. It looks like you have a lot to choose from.

They are just men getting to be kids again. They are just out having a good time.

QUOTE=filtersweep]Gears Tears and Fears... was my post THAT obvious, Scott? That is exactly what I was referring to- and certainly it isn't representative of all the rides. The ironic thing is that at the ride briefing they always "encourage" regrouping after the hills, at lights, etc... never happens.[/QUOTE]

that everybody else's style of riding is wrong. If there is a group that enjoys club riding to the extreme, let them. If you don't like it, don't ride with them.

TF

It is like that old George Carlin thing: When you are driving down the highway everyone that passes you is a crazyperson...while everone that is in front of you is a moron and in your way...

I haven't been to the GTF ride yet this year because it is opposite of the local crit night (so you can do the math on that one)- but one of my training buddies has been riding it (and complaining vocally about it last night- and I know exactly what he is talking about) and I rode it much of last year- in addition to some other rides of similar calibre this year.

I'm really not looking to prove anything- I gave up on that one a long time ago with this crew- and besides, I'd literally be fighting an uphill battle if I did have something to prove ;) I've already voted with my feet...

It's not crazy if you can keep up.

I find racing simulation type group rides to be very helpful, but the downside is sketchy riders flitting about the group until the pace picks up enough to flick them off the back. I prefer the faster pace as it drops the dangerous riders off the group.

We have a twice weekly group ride/informal race out here that's very popular. Everyone knows the pace will pick up and attacks will come on the hills, but it is a chance to test yourself and get race paced miles. But the groups tend to be big enough that if you get dropped from the first group there will be another one right behind it. A little somthing for everyone as it were. Only annoying thing is some slower riders leaving early for a "headstart" just to have the 20-30 member peleton come flying by them anyway- which isn't much fun on some of the smaller roads with traffic back.

Gears Tears and Fears... was my post THAT obvious, Scott? That is exactly what I was referring to- and certainly it isn't representative of all the rides. The ironic thing is that at the ride briefing they always "encourage" regrouping after the hills, at lights, etc... never happens.

Hey Filtersweep,

I did that ride a few times last year but it isn't fitting into my schedule this year mainly due to a new structured training schedule. It was by far the most chaotic "group" ride I've done and I never really felt comfortable with the style of the ride. IMO it was way to big for how fast everyone wants to go and there was no grouping up which I didn't think was good form.

BTW quick race report - McLoud was fast and furious. It was an A,B,C grouping with the individual Cats being scored separate. I rode the B which consisted of the 3/4s and the Masters 4/5. I got into the winning break at about mile 6 of a 59.5 mile race but pulled back and waited for the peloton after about 12 miles in the break (bad tactical move but I thought I was going to blow hard). The break was all 3s and if I would have been feeling 100% I think I could have easily finished with them giving me the win in the Masters group, but it wasn't to be that day. I rode with the main group not taking anymore wind and placed 8th in my class. The finish didn't have both lanes opened up for the sprint so it was 60 guys going into the final on a 10 foot wide stretch of road... not a good place to contest a sprint if you want to walk away.

Afterward, someone told me the main pack averaged around 24mph, I didn't have a computer on my bike but it did seem to be a pretty fast pace. All in all, a good day racing even though I spent half the time trying to cough up a lung.

I like competitive group rides. When the group is real large, we'll force the pace early just to break the group up a little. I've found that best rides are organized by USCF clubs. We will do a closed course with a sprint every lap, followed by a half mile at an easy pace to allow EVERYONE to regroup. On long hilly rides, the faster riders will either wait at the top of the climbs or go back down and do the climb again. It adds more effort to their workout and gives them a chance to humiliate me twice (sometimes three times).
The worst rides are the local "touring" club. Those guys never manage to stay together in a group for more than 100 yards, and no one ever hangs out after the rides any longer than it takes to load their Serotta in their SUV.
It's hard to find a group that's fun to ride with, especially if you are not strong enough to ride with race clubs.

A bit of a tangent, but related... filtersweep and Scot Gore, I assume you are referring to a Twin Cities club. Which makes me wonder which clubs in the Twin Cities have good, well-paced, fast but controlled group rides (unlike the one you described). A couple of the clubs in town are nice groups of people, but largely focused on racing and their rides are a bit too extreme for my taste. I also don't want to ride with a club that putzes along at a 16mph average. Is there a happy medium locally? 20mph avg., friendly group, good ride routes... Am I asking for too much?

Cheers.

A bit of a tangent, but related... filtersweep and Scot Gore, I assume you are referring to a Twin Cities club. Which makes me wonder which clubs in the Twin Cities have good, well-paced, fast but controlled group rides (unlike the one you described). A couple of the clubs in town are nice groups of people, but largely focused on racing and their rides are a bit too extreme for my taste. I also don't want to ride with a club that putzes along at a 16mph average. Is there a happy medium locally? 20mph avg., friendly group, good ride routes... Am I asking for too much?

Cheers.

Yes.
My experience has been that the only group rides that really ride as a group are the race clubs. I ride with a ski club that is a mix of strong riders and several former racers. That developed into a good group, but as I get older and younger guys join, I'm getting dropped more often.
I also used to ride with a race club on Monday evenings. After racing Sunday, they would ride easy with their girl friends or wives. It was a good, hard pace for me, and I met women there.
I'd rather ride alone than ride with most recreational clubs.

Suddha,
On non-race weekends, I normally ride with a group of guys out of the southern burbs. (Rosemount on Saturdays and Burnsville on Sundays). The group isn't linked to a club or shop but the rides are well organized, has a moderate pace (18-19 average without big jumps in speed) and is not unruly in any way. They're great rides to get good solid base miles in with the rides average around 40-50 miles each. The guys are also one of the nicest bunch I've ever come across in cycling. One guy in particular organizes the rides and sends out weekly details via email along with a weekend weather report.

If you're interested, or anyone else for that matter, shoot me an email off line and I'll get you details.

Pete

... a strange breed of rider: the type who always wear their racing club jersey, however they never actually race, except I know one of the guys actually did one TT last year. Anyway, for these riders, the purpose of the ride appears to be to drop as many as possible "attacking" on the hills...

...in dropping everyone they can, it ends up being a little tiny clique ride, which flies in the face of the very purpose of a group ride.

...you would think this were an informal race. Anyone else see this sort of club behavior?

Hey, have you been riding with my club? If you had not mentioned the "hills" I would have been trying to figure out which of our local club members you are. I was in more races myself last year than all the members of one of the local "race" teams combined.

The cliques are forming by those riders that have been dropped. They are planning their own private, invitation only rides.

... Just let them go. You don't have to compete with them if you don't want to...

Seems like the stronger riders are willing to let the hot dogs go as the strong riders have nothing to prove on a club ride. Everyone else seems to chase until they get dropped one by one and there a riders strung out all over the countryside. Perhaps those of us who do not see a need to compete in a noncompetitive ride need to speak up and be less subtle about telling others to "Just let them go."

Most A or AB TCBC rides are like that- as long as they don't have the word "hills" in the description.

Hey Filtersweep,

I did that ride a few times last year but it isn't fitting into my schedule this year mainly due to a new structured training schedule. It was by far the most chaotic "group" ride I've done and I never really felt comfortable with the style of the ride. IMO it was way to big for how fast everyone wants to go and there was no grouping up which I didn't think was good form.

BTW quick race report - McLoud was fast and furious. It was an A,B,C grouping with the individual Cats being scored separate. I rode the B which consisted of the 3/4s and the Masters 4/5. I got into the winning break at about mile 6 of a 59.5 mile race but pulled back and waited for the peloton after about 12 miles in the break (bad tactical move but I thought I was going to blow hard). The break was all 3s and if I would have been feeling 100% I think I could have easily finished with them giving me the win in the Masters group, but it wasn't to be that day. I rode with the main group not taking anymore wind and placed 8th in my class. The finish didn't have both lanes opened up for the sprint so it was 60 guys going into the final on a 10 foot wide stretch of road... not a good place to contest a sprint if you want to walk away.

Afterward, someone told me the main pack averaged around 24mph, I didn't have a computer on my bike but it did seem to be a pretty fast pace. All in all, a good day racing even though I spent half the time trying to cough up a lung.

I figured you would know what I meant by the GFT ride...

I've been doing the OPUS series on Tuesdays and finally had a good night this week- but of course they only post the top three, not the top ten. My wife watched this week (which is odd, since these usually bore her to tears), and of course in the earlier race there was a nasty crash requiring an ambulance. I wish there was a way to keep her from worrying about things.

It sounds like you did well at McCloud- but it seems evil putting the 3/4s with the 35+ 4/5s. It is amazing that a group of about 60 stuck together that long- or is that relatively normal? Was it a rather flat route?

The guy who crashed in the early race was a buddy of mine, Neil. He ended up with a fractured pelvis and road rash but should recover Ok. That's cool that your wife made it out to watch. I was planning on riding Opus but haven't been able to make it over yet.

I think McLeod would have been different if the wind would have been a factor. It's a pretty flat course and is almost completely open but the wind was real light so it just stayed together until the end. I was a little worried about the 3s blowing it apart but other than the break, it just didn't happen on that day. All the big teams had someone in the break so no one chased.

Keep the rubber side down
Pete

Hey Filtersweep - you're a Minneapolis rider as I am. Do you mind me asking which group this is? Which night and where do they ride out of if you don't want to mention names...

I've had similar experiences with one group in particular. They invite ALL riders with some experience and then drop people left and right. I was one of them ONCE (I never rode with them again), and I was dropped in a place I'd never been with no map. I ended up finding my way back on my own (the WRONG way I might add), and ended up riding MORE miles to get back than if I had just doubled back the way I came.

The fastest group I ride with usually has an A and B ride. I almost always finish the B ride with the group. If it's a combined AB, I fight like he!! to stay with them and sometimes I almost make it. Last time I only made 10 miles out of 60. Getting dropped is a good thing. It makes me try harder. If I never got dropped, I wouild have to find another group.

TF

A bit of a tangent, but related... filtersweep and Scot Gore, I assume you are referring to a Twin Cities club. Which makes me wonder which clubs in the Twin Cities have good, well-paced, fast but controlled group rides (unlike the one you described). A couple of the clubs in town are nice groups of people, but largely focused on racing and their rides are a bit too extreme for my taste. I also don't want to ride with a club that putzes along at a 16mph average. Is there a happy medium locally? 20mph avg., friendly group, good ride routes... Am I asking for too much?

Cheers.

Yep, this definitely sounds like a TCBC ride. I've also done the aforementioned Tuesday night hill ride too. I found a similar thing where there was very little organization out front.

I've done a smattering of TCBC rides over the years and have found them to be very pleasant about 80% of the time. I usually do A/B rides and find myself hanging with the "fast" group (even though sometimes I'm just looking to do a more laid back ride - I can't resist). To me the whole benefit is the group riding experience, as I get tired of solo rides all of the time.

I like the concept of the TCBC rides, but I think a lot depends on the ride leader. I've been on some rides where the leader goes with the fast group and isn't shy about dropping people. I don't understand why they don't slack off on this a bit, as some poor souls are just a tinge behind and end up flagging in the wind. I believe the "Tears, Gears, and Fears" ride leader kind of hangs more with the slower riders, so it's no wonder that the faster riders take a "survival of the fittest" attitude.

I've sat on the fence for awhile thinking about getting involved with a club. I'd like to know more about the clubs. Unfortunately, I have a lot of time constraints that hold me back from participating. I guess I just have a problem with commitment. :)

Hey Filtersweep - you're a Minneapolis rider as I am. Do you mind me asking which group this is? Which night and where do they ride out of if you don't want to mention names...

I've had similar experiences with one group in particular. They invite ALL riders with some experience and then drop people left and right. I was one of them ONCE (I never rode with them again), and I was dropped in a place I'd never been with no map. I ended up finding my way back on my own (the WRONG way I might add), and ended up riding MORE miles to get back than if I had just doubled back the way I came.

TCBC- Gears Fears and Tears- leaves Tues from near St. Thomas-

http://www.mtn.org/tcbc/schd.official.current.html

I won't name names...

For many club riders, club rides are their races. This is what they want to do and its OK.

Its a bunch of guys getting together and just having a race without a formal setting, fees, marshals, or written rules, or maybe no rules at all.

Its people doing what they want to do and that's OK. You can play or not.

TCBC- Gears Fears and Tears- leaves Tues from near St. Thomas-

http://www.mtn.org/tcbc/schd.official.current.html

I won't name names...

Thanks...I'm an idiot and read more into the posts after I sent my message. Duh... I'm not sure about the south metro groups, as I ride primarily in the north metro. I'm more a triathlete anyway (I ride a NORMAL raod bike with NORAMAL bars though!), and spend most of my riding time alone, but I try to hook up with groups for longer rides for the social aspect as well as getting in some bigger miles.

My real issue is the groups that push the "no drop" thing when that isn't even REMOTELY the case. If you advertise the group as an 18-20 avg ride, yet you push more in the 22-25 (or faster) avg ride, well, it's just no fun! Especially when I watched the speed CONSISTENTLY creep above 30mph that ride. I'm one of those people who rides because I like to ride, not because I have something to prove. That said, I'm no slouch either, but geez...

Filtersweep, I hate to break it to you, but you've probably posted this thread on the wrong board to answer the question you're really asking.

For the rest of you, I strongly urge you to stop reading right now if you're insecure, don't care to read another one of my endless rambling arrogant self-congratulatory posts, have no sense of humour and/or are easily offended.

The only real solution to the concerns implied in your original post is for you to create your OWN group ride with a few select teammates and/or friends. This way you eliminate the common group ride themes of dangerous riding and lawless behaviour, plus ensure your group is focussed on the same agenda and is prepared to wait up or tow you home if you flat or bonk. I recommend you keep the times and meeting places dynamic, or else your focussed team training ride will devolve into yet another group free-for-all.

Not to say that group rides don't have their place. Hey, it's quite a lot of fun to go out and mindlessly hammer yourself and whoever else you can into the ground. Not arguing with that. As usual, I digress, so back to the OP: If you think you can consistently and effectively get a structured workout in during a large group ride, you're sadly mistaken. Public group rides invite too many uncontrolled variables, hence mob mentality invariably takes over.

The bulk of serious racers I know, especially our local D1 / D2 pros, do most of their training solo. Why? Because you cannot do focussed effective training at someone else's pace. Those of you who don't choose to believe this, that's fine. Arrant elitism on my part? Fine, deal with it. To quote an oft-repeated saying: "Arguing on the Internet is like participating in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded".

If serious racers feel the need for a race-pace tempo workout or group ride, they organise focussed 'ad hoc' group rides by calling around to their teammates to set up motorpacing sessions, hill workouts, sprints, tempo intervals, etc... during given times of the week when it will benefit their progress.

Everyone else does the Psycho Logic ride (our local edition of the TCBC ride, I imagine).

FWIW, every cycling community in the nation has 'testicle tours' like this. I'm sure I'll offend more than a few folks here, but to paraphrase our boy Slim Shady, "I just don't give a F---".

Dennis Leary Mode ON:

On your typical fast public group rides, you are generally dealing with a bunch of what the Mad Dog so eloquently described in a recent Foaming Rant; IOW most of the time they kinda resemble an asterisk when you set it in a really big font:

*
1) The Pseudo-Racer: The bulk of the "racers" in team jerseys on these rides are the sorts of club racers and/or tri-geeks who are too chickensh#t to show up at a mass start event. They tend to limit their actual race days to one or two ITT or hillclimb events per year, and often do quite well at these since there's no denying they're strong, plus they don't have to focus on any sort of skills or tactics besides riding one speed as hard as they can for a predetermined length of time. Pseudo-racers will go on every group ride their club holds because 1) they aren't training for anything besides the weekly Tour de Testosterone and the annual Mount Doom Hillclimb, thus they're not suffering dead legs from having done a brutal race the previous Saturday, Sunday and/or Tuesday night, and 2) To justify their existence and the "team" jersey they've bought, they feel compelled to prove to everyone else just how tough they are. These sorts of riders almost universally have terrible pack skills, know (and care) zilch about safety and love to ride around pretending they're Europros by blowing stop signs and riding three and four abreast blocking traffic.

2) The Century King: Another subset are your fast recreational types. These guys don't care to race, and they don't give a crap about training in any organised fashion. They just want to get a hard workout in, and in the process of doing this, they like to feed their own egos by boasting about how high an average speed they can maintain, and what "real racers" they are able to drop on any given ride. These guys have even worse group skills and manners than Subset 1. They are often to be seen sporting permanently attached aerobars, helmet mirrors and Nashbar closeout deal jerseys. They generally don't give a snowflake on a hot stove about "development" (their own or anyone else's) or "encouraging new riders". Screw that noise, their goal is to get their workout in by dropping as many riders as they are physically capable of, and everyone else else be damned. I've actually heard one of these prats boasting how hard they "dropped" Jonathon Vaughters (who happened to be riding in his CA kit, hence recognisable), while he was riding 12mph recovering from an interval set on his regular training loop.

3) The Wannabe: A third subset are essentially poseurs who do group rides to facilitate their personal sense of identity. These are often has-been or never-was racer wannabes who are now overweight forty-somethings. These guys show up in matched Euro team kit, World Champion edition shoes, on the latest unobtanium frameset designed for some 125-lb Basque climber, which creaks ominously beneath their Biggie Sized buns. These types ride without helmets wherever possible, and love to talk about how fast they "used to be" or "are gonna be". They typically get dropped on the first climb though, so at least you don't have to listen to them for long.

4) The Henpecked Spouse: These are the riders who do race occasionally througout the season, but who are only able to negotiate a "hall pass" to do so on a limited number of weekends, due to family / lifestyle constraints and a nagging spouse with limited understanding of their partner's desire for personal fulfillment, and Gestapo-esque control of any expenditure not directly targeted towards home improvement or personal haberdashery needs. These riders must achieve their race-pace miles and group skills building whenever they can, and ad hoc training is difficult to impossible to work around their 40+ hour/week jobs, in-law requirements, and the need to provide taxi service to facilitate the social demands of their offspring. Local group rides at least offer an acceptable schedule / structure for them to get a regular workout. These guys are usually seen sporting faded, ripped local team kit from 1999, shoes that date back to the Bush Sr. administration, ride eight year old Cannondales, and are damned fast by virtue of being pissed off at the world in general.

/Dennis Leary Mode

Have a nice day!

The guy who crashed in the early race was a buddy of mine, Neil. He ended up with a fractured pelvis and road rash but should recover Ok. That's cool that your wife made it out to watch. I was planning on riding Opus but haven't been able to make it over yet.

I think McLeod would have been different if the wind would have been a factor. It's a pretty flat course and is almost completely open but the wind was real light so it just stayed together until the end. I was a little worried about the 3s blowing it apart but other than the break, it just didn't happen on that day. All the big teams had someone in the break so no one chased.

Keep the rubber side down
Pete

Fractured pelvis- wow... he looked like he was really in a bad way- and it happened on the fast side of the course... any details on how it happened? Last week 5 or 6 guys went down in that same race- so I'm quite happy I'm not stuck in the open 4/5s. I really don't get it, since it is such an open course- it doesn't even have any right angle turns.


It sounds like you've definitely had bigger fish to fry than Opus... maybe I'll see you there Tues- I'm guessing we'd be in the same race.

Great advise- and your profiles are truly hilarious... you have a gift for writing

I could easily fit into cat 4 of your Dennis Leary rant. ROFLMAO :D I just have a few more years to achieve the 40ish age though.

I could easily fit into cat 4 of your Dennis Leary rant. ROFLMAO :D I just have a few more years to achieve the 40ish age though.

I knew many of that type, and I'm terrified of turning into one myself...

The "non race" club rides I have been on sound like this ride. They are always quite slow in average speed as they practically stop dead on any hills. Fastest one I ever did made 19mph and that was basically with myself and one masters racer dragging everyone along the entire ride. I remember one that seemed really retarded, 50 mile ride, the leaders were a husband and wife on a tandem, they tried to drop the group on a hill. Strange place to go for it.

We have a really nasty "no wait" ride that our club runs once a week, although at the beginning of the ride one of the guys will always yell out a disclaimer that the ride is not associated with or sponsored by our club. However everyone on that ride is a "real" racer, and the pack handling skills & paceline work tend to be excellent. Very tight pacelines with controlled efforts. The 4/5 guys will go out first, and 5-10 minutes laster the 2/3 guys will go out, and try to catch the first group. If the fast guys catch the first group, the two groups tend to merge, although they usually catch the first group on the long final climb at the end of the ride, where things break up, so it is pretty safe. It does tend to be a good intense workout if you do it when it works into your schedule. The 4/5 group will average 22-23 and the 2/3 group is almost always 25+ average so no one bothers showing up unless they are serious. By mid summer it is more like 25 for the 4/5 group and 27 for the 2/3 group.

Ben

Filtersweep, I hate to break it to you, but you've probably posted this thread on the wrong board to answer the question you're really asking.

For the rest of you, I strongly urge you to stop reading right now if you're insecure, don't care to read another one of my endless rambling arrogant self-congratulatory posts, have no sense of humour and/or are easily offended.

The only real solution to the concerns implied in your original post is for you to create your OWN group ride with a few select teammates and/or friends. This way you eliminate the common group ride themes of dangerous riding and lawless behaviour, plus ensure your group is focussed on the same agenda and is prepared to wait up or tow you home if you flat or bonk. I recommend you keep the times and meeting places dynamic, or else your focussed team training ride will devolve into yet another group free-for-all.

Not to say that group rides don't have their place. Hey, it's quite a lot of fun to go out and mindlessly hammer yourself and whoever else you can into the ground. Not arguing with that. As usual, I digress, so back to the OP: If you think you can consistently and effectively get a structured workout in during a large group ride, you're sadly mistaken. Public group rides invite too many uncontrolled variables, hence mob mentality invariably takes over.

The bulk of serious racers I know, especially our local D1 / D2 pros, do most of their training solo. Why? Because you cannot do focussed effective training at someone else's pace. Those of you who don't choose to believe this, that's fine. Arrant elitism on my part? Fine, deal with it. To quote an oft-repeated saying: "Arguing on the Internet is like participating in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded".

If serious racers feel the need for a race-pace tempo workout or group ride, they organise focussed 'ad hoc' group rides by calling around to their teammates to set up motorpacing sessions, hill workouts, sprints, tempo intervals, etc... during given times of the week when it will benefit their progress.

Everyone else does the Psycho Logic ride (our local edition of the TCBC ride, I imagine).

FWIW, every cycling community in the nation has 'testicle tours' like this. I'm sure I'll offend more than a few folks here, but to paraphrase our boy Slim Shady, "I just don't give a F---".

Dennis Leary Mode ON:

On your typical fast public group rides, you are generally dealing with a bunch of what the Mad Dog so eloquently described in a recent Foaming Rant; IOW most of the time they kinda resemble an asterisk when you set it in a really big font:

*
1) The Pseudo-Racer: The bulk of the "racers" in team jerseys on these rides are the sorts of club racers and/or tri-geeks who are too chickensh#t to show up at a mass start event. They tend to limit their actual race days to one or two ITT or hillclimb events per year, and often do quite well at these since there's no denying they're strong, plus they don't have to focus on any sort of skills or tactics besides riding one speed as hard as they can for a predetermined length of time. Pseudo-racers will go on every group ride their club holds because 1) they aren't training for anything besides the weekly Tour de Testosterone and the annual Mount Doom Hillclimb, thus they're not suffering dead legs from having done a brutal race the previous Saturday, Sunday and/or Tuesday night, and 2) To justify their existence and the "team" jersey they've bought, they feel compelled to prove to everyone else just how tough they are. These sorts of riders almost universally have terrible pack skills, know (and care) zilch about safety and love to ride around pretending they're Europros by blowing stop signs and riding three and four abreast blocking traffic.

2) The Century King: Another subset are your fast recreational types. These guys don't care to race, and they don't give a crap about training in any organised fashion. They just want to get a hard workout in, and in the process of doing this, they like to feed their own egos by boasting about how high an average speed they can maintain, and what "real racers" they are able to drop on any given ride. These guys have even worse group skills and manners than Subset 1. They are often to be seen sporting permanently attached aerobars, helmet mirrors and Nashbar closeout deal jerseys. They generally don't give a snowflake on a hot stove about "development" (their own or anyone else's) or "encouraging new riders". Screw that noise, their goal is to get their workout in by dropping as many riders as they are physically capable of, and everyone else else be damned. I've actually heard one of these prats boasting how hard they "dropped" Jonathon Vaughters (who happened to be riding in his CA kit, hence recognisable), while he was riding 12mph recovering from an interval set on his regular training loop.

3) The Wannabe: A third subset are essentially poseurs who do group rides to facilitate their personal sense of identity. These are often has-been or never-was racer wannabes who are now overweight forty-somethings. These guys show up in matched Euro team kit, World Champion edition shoes, on the latest unobtanium frameset designed for some 125-lb Basque climber, which creaks ominously beneath their Biggie Sized buns. These types ride without helmets wherever possible, and love to talk about how fast they "used to be" or "are gonna be". They typically get dropped on the first climb though, so at least you don't have to listen to them for long.

4) The Henpecked Spouse: These are the riders who do race occasionally througout the season, but who are only able to negotiate a "hall pass" to do so on a limited number of weekends, due to family / lifestyle constraints and a nagging spouse with limited understanding of their partner's desire for personal fulfillment, and Gestapo-esque control of any expenditure not directly targeted towards home improvement or personal haberdashery needs. These riders must achieve their race-pace miles and group skills building whenever they can, and ad hoc training is difficult to impossible to work around their 40+ hour/week jobs, in-law requirements, and the need to provide taxi service to facilitate the social demands of their offspring. Local group rides at least offer an acceptable schedule / structure for them to get a regular workout. These guys are usually seen sporting faded, ripped local team kit from 1999, shoes that date back to the Bush Sr. administration, ride eight year old Cannondales, and are damned fast by virtue of being pissed off at the world in general.

/Dennis Leary Mode

Have a nice day!


LFR - I have enjoyed reading your post every since I got involved on this forum - but this is by far "the one" !!! - ! NOMINATE THIS ONE FOR POST OF THE FREAKIN YEAR

I'm just a simple man, so maybe someone can explain the phenomenon to me. One of the clubs I belong to is huge and has a large cross section of riders. Many but not most people belong to any of a variety of racing clubs as well. There are usually several group rides scheduled each night leaving from locations scattered all across the metro area, so it is handy if I ever feel like a group ride. This club does NOT have a no-drop policy.

There are a few "hill rides" that attract a strange breed of rider: the type who always wear their racing club jersey, however they never actually race, except I know one of the guys actually did one TT last year. Anyway, for these riders, the purpose of the ride appears to be to drop as many as possible "attacking" on the hills, then never regroup. Again, this is not a race oriented club, and from a training perspective, I fail to see the benefit in not regrouping. For me, many of the rides seem like junk miles according to my HRM data (extended time spent in the no-man's land zone).

One of the problems is that this style of club ride is quite alienating to new members- although I don't know if it is any worse than those massive chaotic bike shop group rides that I've encountered on the roads. The other issue is for me, these types of rides do nothing constructive physically- they more or less are about maintaining a state of overtraining, so I've been spending my time elsewhere. Finally, in dropping everyone they can, it ends up being a little tiny clique ride, which flies in the face of the very purpose of a group ride. Seriously, you would think this were an informal race. Anyone else see this sort of club behavior? I really don't get it...

(BTW- not all the rides are like this- just a notable select few.)
Yes I have seen it and am guilty of it. lol! Where I come from there are A,B, &C. A being a brisk pace22-25 mph, pace lines and very little regrouping. B is slower and more frequent regroup and C is social and even slower. Im a hammer head and want A rides cause I like to let it rip. Problem is, with our club the A rides seem more like B rides; 1/2 of the group drops the other 1/2 and then a couple of us drop the fast 1/2. We all just know where the meeting place is and end up there at different times. I thought being a guy was all about competing with each other; human nature.Seperating riders into different groups is rough because no one wants to admit they belong in the slower group.Hey man, Just ride it like ya stole it..and someday you will be able to hang with the big dogs!

ROFLMAO! Love it. Nice Post.