This is no lie. My liberty or paraphrasing the follwoing exchange was necessary to preserve the orgianial conversational nature of the converastion. A conversation which occurred after CNN aired Bush's rehersal, which CNN characterized as an error.

Q) Larry King (widely known as the leading Clinton Network News left wing softball piticher): So John Roberts, Why is this speech now?

A) John Roberts (equally left leaning frontman for Dan Rather's "let's get Bush at any cost" fillin): Well, in the 80's there was Reagan's amnesty for 3 million Mexicans, Then in 2000 Bush campaigned about immigration issues, and now he is pandering to his base.

King: Oh, ...... blah blah blah

That poor bastid Roberts has for some un-known reason completely forgotten that a certain man named Bill Clinton was President during the 90's when appearntly all illegal Mexican immigration stood still unitl a Republican administration could take office whereby signaling a return to illegal immigration. What Liberal Media Bias?????

Here's the punch line. Irregardless of this unfathomable breach or all journalistic efficacy, Bush can suck it as far as I'm concerned. We are either a sovereign nation that defends it's borders, or we are the worst of gullable hosts that deserves to be sucked dry by the leaches to our south.

This is how new political parties are formed.

a bit long-winded for a "clinton did it too" don't you think?

Almost everyone here says the media dosent lean to the left? So if everybody says it, then it must be true!

Everyone here says everything bad that happens is Bush's fault, so this must be true also.

Kendle Fox: Waits for someone to slame Bush...

a bit long-winded for a "clinton did it too" don't you think?

Sorry, my writing ability is not what it should be. I agree it was a bit too long winded. But, the major theme was more F- - - Bush than anthing about Clinton.

Besides, my comments in no way were a Clinton did it too. It was more of a "Hey did you media Guys completely forget 8 years thingy?"

More than a subtle difference.

Almost everyone here says the media dosent lean to the left? So if everybody says it, then it must be true!

Everyone here says everything bad that happens is Bush's fault, so this must be true also.

Kendle Fox: Waits for someone to slame Bush...

Be careful, a nice young conservative lad like yourself could fall in with bad companions on this forum. ;)

Be careful, a nice young conservative lad like yourself could fall in with bad companions on this forum. ;)

I can only think of one guy who owns the responsibility to defend the borders of the US. PS, He's not getting it done.

Maybe it isn't that it stood still... maybe it's that people weren't so eager to jump on the hate bandwagon because things were actually looking decent for a lot more folks than they look today...

Just thought y'all needed a little more fuel.




joe

Q) Larry King (widely known as the leading Clinton Network News left wing softball piticher):

:rolleyes:

King tosses softballs to EVERYONE, and he NEVER listens to their answers. Try not to parrot the "left wing media conspiracy" republican talking point every time, if you can.

I think this President sees the border issue in a different light than most Americans. We hear all the scenarios of terrorists and horrible weapons coming in from Mexico but that hasn't happened, granted, it could. What is coming across are drugs and MEXICANS. MEXICANS are the part that trouble most of us, we're pretty much ok with drugs. It is an invasion and is happening in culture altering numbers. I think George Bush is a bit less racist than most of us and that is reflected in his proposals. I believe we are going to get a guest worker program but it may set limits and may well force prople to return home after a time. Something will have to be done about that pesky "born a citizen" clause in that case however.

I think this President sees the border issue in a different light than most Americans. We hear all the scenarios of terrorists and horrible weapons coming in from Mexico but that hasn't happened, granted, it could. What is coming across are drugs and MEXICANS. MEXICANS are the part that trouble most of us, we're pretty much ok with drugs. It is an invasion and is happening in culture altering numbers. I think George Bush is a bit less racist than most of us and that is reflected in his proposals. I believe we are going to get a guest worker program but it may set limits and may well force prople to return home after a time. Something will have to be done about that pesky "born a citizen" clause in that case however.


George does not dislike you for the color of your skin. It's just that he couldn't care less about you, except as your value to the corporation, if you are poor. He sees these people as a commodity that helps his corporate buddies. A source of super cheap labor that can't afford to complain without risk of getting deported. It's pretty evident that he doesn't want to stop the flow of illegals or else why did it take him so long to propose anything that would close the holes in the border. Especially after the 9/11 commission asked for 10,000 more border guards and Bush has cut the funding for the hiring of these new guards every year since.

George does not dislike you for the color of your skin. It's just that he couldn't care less about you, except as your value to the corporation, if you are poor. He sees these people as a commodity that helps his corporate buddies. A source of super cheap labor that can't afford to complain without risk of getting deported. It's pretty evident that he doesn't want to stop the flow of illegals or else why did it take him so long to propose anything that would close the holes in the border. Especially after the 9/11 commission asked for 10,000 more border guards and Bush has cut the funding for the hiring of these new guards every year since.

You're a cynic, ain'cha?

I agree that Bush means well and that he's less racist than most Americans (including most Democrats). The problem I see is that, as Fareed Zakaria has pointed out, many European countries have tried "guest worker" systems and it has worked out terribly for them. Unlike France (with a guest-worker system) we don't have mobs of guest workers burning cars and tearing up our cities. France, Germany, Denmark, etc., have all had terrible problems because with no hope of gaining citizenship, their guest workers don't have any reason to assimilate.

Bush is smart for trying to put some sort of citizenship carrot into his immigration policy, but I fear there is not enough there to get temporary workers to assimilate.

I prefer a free-market approach: open the gates and allow lots of immigration. This will bring lots of hard-working people into the US. Most of these will be young, and this will help even out the demographic imbalance that threatens Social Security and private pension systems. If we can get many young workers for every retiree, we will be able to shore up both the government and private pension systems and stimulate a lot of economic growth.

If it were easier for people to immigrate legally, it would be harder for businesses to exploit illegals and drive wages down. Wages would decline with an increased supply of labor, but this might also stimulate enough growth to increase overall employment significantly, just as the doubling of the workforce in the 1970s as women started to work created enough growth that it didn't produce massive unemployment or depressed wages.

Finally, making immigration mostly legal would help our efforts to assimilate immigrants into our culture rather than pushing them under ground.

I think the fly in your ointment is the idea that legal immigration would have no limits. It would have to have or it would be pure chaos. Those limits and the fact that many have no desire to become citizens would insure that the illegal problem would still exist.

I think the guest worker program will work and be a better solution to the problem. I don't see a European like problem developing here, we already have the kind of segregated populations but the religious differences are not so great as with Islamic cultures. A guest worker program also has to limit the time the visas are for and return has to be insured. Some structure also has to be in place to insure fair wages and conditions for these workers and to keep a competitive situation for American workers as well. We have a large portion of our population that needs these lower paying jobs as well and our first national obligation is to our own people.

I don't know that Bush is not a racist, but about the only thing I respect about him is that he is a realist- likely from being gov of a border state.

It is a JOKE to declare a war on illegal immigration- like the war on drugs or poverty or whatever... and he knows it.

had nothing to do with the 'demand side' of the equation. What a frickin' farce. 'Well we'll punish them tryin to get in, but allow them seasonally for cheap labor and put no fines on their employers"

typical walking both sides of the fence. keep the crackers happy with a symbolic bone but keep the Corps with their cheap labor

I think the fly in your ointment is the idea that legal immigration would have no limits. It would have to have or it would be pure chaos.
Why? Do we have to have limits on how much money people can earn, on how much gasoline they can buy, on how many hamburgers McDonalds can sell? No. We let the market determine how many goods are bought and sold and what price they should command and there's no chaos in the market for hamburgers or gasoline.

I don't see any reason why having the government decide the supply of labor in the United States should work any better then having the government decide the supply of hamburgers. I would prefer market-based immigration to Soviet-style central planning of the labor supply.

Over the next few decades we're facing a crisis of too few workers in the US. We've gone from 16 workers for each retiree in the 1950s to 3 workers per retiree today. If we want today's workers to be able to retire in any reasonable manner we need to increase our workforce by a factor of somewhere around five, which means massive immigration.

Allowing the free market to determine how many people come work in the US would help tremendously.

If you think that we can avoid this demographic crisis by making people work longer, check this story (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-fi-forcedout15may15,0,7894560.story) from the Los Angeles Times about a McKinsey study of how many people who planned to work past 65 are forced into early retirement against their wishes. We need more young workers in the US and artificially reducing the supply is not helping.

Why? Do we have to have limits on how much money people can earn, on how much gasoline they can buy, on how many hamburgers McDonalds can sell? No. We let the market determine how many goods are bought and sold and what price they should command and there's no chaos in the market for hamburgers or gasoline.

I don't see any reason why having the government decide the supply of labor in the United States should work any better then having the government decide the supply of hamburgers. I would prefer market-based immigration to Soviet-style central planning of the labor supply.

Over the next few decades we're facing a crisis of too few workers in the US. We've gone from 16 workers for each retiree in the 1950s to 3 workers per retiree today. If we want today's workers to be able to retire in any reasonable manner we need to increase our workforce by a factor of somewhere around five, which means massive immigration.

Allowing the free market to determine how many people come work in the US would help tremendously.

If you think that we can avoid this demographic crisis by making people work longer, check this story (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-fi-forcedout15may15,0,7894560.story) from the Los Angeles Times about a McKinsey study of how many people who planned to work past 65 are forced into early retirement against their wishes. We need more young workers in the US and artificially reducing the supply is not helping.


only because of all the friggin baby boomers, the one's that go around saying the government "owes" me something. Personally, I hope social security goes bankrupt for them, I already know it won't be around for me BECAUSE of them, so I hope they get a liitle gift for their attitude.

only because of all the friggin baby boomers, the one's that go around saying the government "owes" me something. Personally, I hope social security goes bankrupt for them, I already know it won't be around for me BECAUSE of them, so I hope they get a liitle gift for their attitude.
How is it the baby boomer's fault that social security won't be around for you and me? Because they didn't have enough kids to maintain the 16-to-one ratio of workers to retirees that their parents' generation enjoyed?

How is it the baby boomer's fault that social security won't be around for you and me? Because they didn't have enough kids to maintain the 16-to-one ratio of workers to retirees that their parents' generation enjoyed?

No, it's not their fault at all, it's no one's fault, I just can't stand the attitude, that they are owed something. That drives me nuts.

No, it's not their fault at all, it's no one's fault, I just can't stand the attitude, that they are owed something. That drives me nuts.

We figger we are owed what we were promised. Wouldn't you?

No, it's not their fault at all, it's no one's fault, I just can't stand the attitude, that they are owed something. That drives me nuts.
I'll second you about the attitude of entitlement. But as a college teacher, I have to tell you that it's not just the baby boomers. If I have one more college kid act as though his parents' paying a five-figure tuition entitles them to a grade without working their butt off for it, I'll scream. I had three kids in one of my classes this term stop showing up for class in March, not turn in any assignments for half the semester, and then show up in my office in the week before exams expecting me to give them extra-credit assignments so they could get good grades.

One kid had a good excuse: "I was diagnosed with mono and had to miss a lot of classes." My reply: "I got the letter from the dean. You were diagnosed with mono in April. Why didn't you turn in any work between mid-February and April."

It's not all of them. I have a lot of very hard-working kids who are a privilege to teach, but every semester there are several who act as though the world owes them an "A" and as though they need special accomodations if they get so much as a hangnail!

Bush is smart for trying to put some sort of citizenship carrot into his immigration policy, but I fear there is not enough there to get temporary workers to assimilate.

I prefer a free-market approach: open the gates and allow lots of immigration. This will bring lots of hard-working people into the US. Most of these will be young, and this will help even out the demographic imbalance that threatens Social Security and private pension systems. If we can get many young workers for every retiree, we will be able to shore up both the government and private pension systems and stimulate a lot of economic growth.

If it were easier for people to immigrate legally, it would be harder for businesses to exploit illegals and drive wages down. Wages would decline with an increased supply of labor, but this might also stimulate enough growth to increase overall employment significantly, just as the doubling of the workforce in the 1970s as women started to work created enough growth that it didn't produce massive unemployment or depressed wages.

Finally, making immigration mostly legal would help our efforts to assimilate immigrants into our culture rather than pushing them under ground.

My feelings exactly on the guest worker program and the free market approach to immigration.

I prefer a free-market approach: open the gates and allow lots of immigration. This will bring lots of hard-working people into the US. Most of these will be young, and this will help even out the demographic imbalance that threatens Social Security and private pension systems. If we can get many young workers for every retiree, we will be able to shore up both the government and private pension systems and stimulate a lot of economic growth.


Nice Try.

Free Market does not mean FREE BORDER.

You must be kidding right? Social Security wasn't even a wet dream during the massive waves of immigration in the early years of the 20th century.

Very wrong analysis of immigration's effects on social security payments. Anyone with half a brain can see that the current proposed laws would bankrupt SS faster than it is going to be bankrupt now. Illegal immigration will cause some peripheral and erroneous payments into the system, but that money will pale compared to the real effects.

When the new immigrants are allowed to bring their "families" into the US there will be many millions of new "citizens" who are of "collecting age that have never paid dime one into the SS system. Multiply the new "workers" exponentially, you know the ones that make very little money but qualify for every entitlement program, and it doesn't even come close to balancing the new SS books.

That is not the American DREAM. The deal has always been, please let me in and I will make it better for myself and those that come after me. The pilgrims didn't show up on Plymouth Rock to leach off of the American Worker. Stop bulls_ _ _ ing me and everybody else with your blind as Ray Charles liberal propaganda.

I don't need my next thing to spend my hard earned money on to be illiterate Mexicans. BTW, I'm not a racist, exnophobe, or even mysoginist. I don't care if it is Illegal Martians that need supporting. I'm still against paying the way for freeloaders, regardless of their origin.

The Mexican elites are sloughing their domestic responsibilites onto the backs of the American taxpayers. And they are counting on the collective guilt of the liberal intelligencia in America to get away with it. IT'S bluff calling time.

You dumb ass libs want to point an angry self righteous finger at someone. Why don't you start by pointing it at the Mexican ruling classes. They are the largest customer for US oil dollars. They are already making plenty of money off of us. Maybe they should start sharing it with their own citizens instead of providing them with Mexican government brochures on how to "break into" the US.

Wake up you dumb ass liberal weenies. Mexico is playing you just like the Soviets played you. If you want to work for Mexico by my "guest" worker. But don't expect me to be as gullable. Most states in this fine Union have an option to pay more tax on their revenue forms. Why don't you pay more of your income. If you don't pay extra taxes every year to "support" these important social reforms, don't bother responding to this post. Because you are in no uncertain terms full of S _ _ _!

My feelings exactly on the guest worker program and the free market approach to immigration.

Actually, I wouldn't be opposed to closing down immigration for a year in order for some impartial big wig socialist/economists to evaluate the situation. And based upon their recommendation, clear the backlog of applicants first and then fire up Ellis Isl for a few years.

Thing is, I can think of one major issue that should be resolved before that happens and that's the current energy crisis.

Free Market does not mean FREE BORDER.
Free market means that if I want to hire someone and they want to work for me, I can hire them and it's none of the government's business. When the government starts telling me whom I can hire or making me wait a couple of years before the most qualified job candidate can come into the country to start work, I've got a problem. If the most highly qualified, hard-working person happens to live in Hungary or India or Israel, I don't see why I should have to hire an American with inferior qualifications or wait years for the best person to get a visa? I thought that's the sort of thing conservatives denounce as "affirmative action" or "quotas."

My wife runs a large part of a big physics experiment and is constantly trying to hire top-notch people. Very often, the best scientists and engineers in the world don't come from the US, but it's such a problem to hire non-citizens that it acts like affirmative action for less-qualified Americans. It gets very difficult for the US to stay competitive if we can't hire the best qualified, hardest woking people.

When the new immigrants are allowed to bring their "families" into the US there will be many millions of new "citizens" who are of "collecting age that have never paid dime one into the SS system. Multiply the new "workers" exponentially, you know the ones that make very little money but qualify for every entitlement program, and it doesn't even come close to balancing the new SS books.
Do you know how Social Security works? You get out proportional to what you paid in. If you're 65 and haven't made any payments, you get nothing out. According to the Social Security Administration,
How do you qualify for retirement benefits?

When you work and pay Social Security taxes, you earn “credits” toward Social Security benefits.

The number of credits you need to get retirement benefits depends on when you were born. If you were born in 1929 or later, you need 40 credits (10 years of work).

If you stop working before you have enough credits to qualify for benefits, the credits will remain on your Social Security record. If you return to work later on, you can add more credits so that you qualify. No retirement benefits can be paid until you have the required number of credits.
How much will your retirement benefit be?

Your benefit payment is based on how much you earned during your working career. Higher lifetime earnings result in higher benefits. If there were some years when you did not work or had low earnings, your benefit amount may be lower than if you had worked steadily.

I don't need my next thing to spend my hard earned money on to be illiterate Mexicans. BTW, I'm not a racist, exnophobe, or even mysoginist. I don't care if it is Illegal Martians that need supporting. I'm still against paying the way for freeloaders, regardless of their origin.
So don't allow freeloaders in. I would have no problem with a law that let people in only if they had job offers, allowed them to apply for citizenship after a certain time of productive employment and no trouble with the law, but deport them if they can't hold a job or commit crimes. I also have no problem with requiring people to read, write, and speak English to become citizens.

You characterize immigrants as lazy freeloaders, but here's a story about how a businesswoman who wants easier legal immigration because she can't find Americans willing to do manual labor even at $34 per hour.

From the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-jobs18may18,0,2857043.story?coll=la-home-headlines):
Cyndi Smallwood is looking for a few strong men for her landscaping company. Guys with no fear of a hot sun, who can shovel dirt all day long. She'll pay as much as $34 an hour.

She can't find them.

Maybe potential employees don't know about her tiny Riverside firm. Maybe the problem is Southern California's solid economy and low unemployment rate. Or maybe manual labor is something that many Americans couldn't dream of doing.

...

Smallwood is ambivalent on immigration reform, saying demands for immediate citizenship by those who entered the country illegally are offensive. But without a guest worker program, she says, her company probably will not survive.

"To get workers, you have to steal them from other companies," the 54-year-old entrepreneur says.

Even that has been unproductive recently. She'd ideally like to add eight employees by the end of the year to her current staff of 12.

...

Managers in the business explain it as a cultural shift, saying that native-born, middle-class Americans of all races and ethnic backgrounds tend to look down on manual labor. That leaves immigrants to do the work.

"The people I grew up with 40 years ago expected to work hard physically," says Bob Wade of Wade Landscape in Laguna Beach.

"This is a pretty pampered little town. The kids don't expect to work hard," Wade says. "A lot don't expect to work at all. They just float."

...

Some economists say such accounts don't mean that Americans won't do some jobs, but that employers such as Gurney simply aren't paying enough.

"Every time someone says illegal immigrants take jobs from Americans or do jobs Americans don't want, I want to scream," UCLA economist Christopher Thornberg says.

This argument makes Smallwood want to scream herself. On a recent job that went into overtime, a Diversified Landscape foreman, Vincente Sanchez, was making $52.34 an hour.

"How high can you go?" she says.

Outside her office one recent afternoon she encounters Bennie Gray, who says he earns about $60,000 a year detailing cars — a different kind of work, but also done in the hot sun. Gray, a thickly muscled African American, acknowledges that on an hourly basis, he might make more working for Smallwood, but can't imagine it.

"I'm not going to lie," says Gray, 48. "I don't want to work that hard. My ancestors had to work in the fields. My mom still talks about the splinters and sores."

Nice Try.

Free Market does not mean FREE BORDER.

You must be kidding right? Social Security wasn't even a wet dream during the massive waves of immigration in the early years of the 20th century.

Very wrong analysis of immigration's effects on social security payments. Anyone with half a brain can see that the current proposed laws would bankrupt SS faster than it is going to be bankrupt now. Illegal immigration will cause some peripheral and erroneous payments into the system, but that money will pale compared to the real effects.

When the new immigrants are allowed to bring their "families" into the US there will be many millions of new "citizens" who are of "collecting age that have never paid dime one into the SS system. Multiply the new "workers" exponentially, you know the ones that make very little money but qualify for every entitlement program, and it doesn't even come close to balancing the new SS books.

That is not the American DREAM. The deal has always been, please let me in and I will make it better for myself and those that come after me. The pilgrims didn't show up on Plymouth Rock to leach off of the American Worker. Stop bulls_ _ _ ing me and everybody else with your blind as Ray Charles liberal propaganda.

I don't need my next thing to spend my hard earned money on to be illiterate Mexicans. BTW, I'm not a racist, exnophobe, or even mysoginist. I don't care if it is Illegal Martians that need supporting. I'm still against paying the way for freeloaders, regardless of their origin.

The Mexican elites are sloughing their domestic responsibilites onto the backs of the American taxpayers. And they are counting on the collective guilt of the liberal intelligencia in America to get away with it. IT'S bluff calling time.

You dumb ass libs want to point an angry self righteous finger at someone. Why don't you start by pointing it at the Mexican ruling classes. They are the largest customer for US oil dollars. They are already making plenty of money off of us. Maybe they should start sharing it with their own citizens instead of providing them with Mexican government brochures on how to "break into" the US.

Wake up you dumb ass liberal weenies. Mexico is playing you just like the Soviets played you. If you want to work for Mexico by my "guest" worker. But don't expect me to be as gullable. Most states in this fine Union have an option to pay more tax on their revenue forms. Why don't you pay more of your income. If you don't pay extra taxes every year to "support" these important social reforms, don't bother responding to this post. Because you are in no uncertain terms full of S _ _ _!

What I read.

1/2 a brain...
bull----
blind as Ray Charles
liberal propaganda
illiterate Mexicans (caveat...not a racist)
liberal intelligentsia
dumb assed libs
self righteous fingers
sleeping dumb assed liberal weenies
full of something that starts with the letter S

Everything else just read like the teacher in Charlie Brown with none of the comedic value.:rolleyes:

What I read.

1/2 a brain...
bull----
blind as Ray Charles
liberal propaganda
illiterate Mexicans (caveat...not a racist)
liberal intelligentsia
dumb assed libs
self righteous fingers
sleeping dumb assed liberal weenies
full of something that starts with the letter S

Everything else just read like the teacher in Charlie Brown with none of the comedic value.:rolleyes:

Lemme Guess. You didn't pay extra taxes last year, or the year before, or ever, and you have no plans to pay extra this year either.

Rocket scientists are not the ones flooding over the border into this country. They are non English speaking non English writing Mexicans, that's not being racist it's calling it like it is. Of course the illegals aren't stupid. They certainly know how to work our entitlement programs and how to get free health care by piling into the emergency rooms across this country. Except it's not free. I'm paying for it.

I love the new tactic devised to pull on the liberal weenies hearth strings. The illegals holding up crosses to symbolize the illegals that have been killed crossing the border. So what! First of all who killed them? If you die breaking the law by illegallly crossing the border STOP crossing the border. Secondly, how many innocent Americans have been murdered by illegal immigrants.

Why don't the bleeding hearts demand the Mexicans to share their wealth instead of demanding me to pay for it? And why aren't libs like you paying extra?

And to think...you once thought that I had displaced anger issues. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should find some space for yourself on the couch.

And to think...you once thought that I had displaced anger issues. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should find some space for yourself on the couch.

You bet your ass I'm angry about this issue. I don't need a couch, I need you to tell me how much extra taxes you pay. How much?

No, it's not their fault at all, it's no one's fault, I just can't stand the attitude, that they are owed something. That drives me nuts.

you are wrong in who you are mad at.

It's the "Greatest Generation" people (What i call "The most selfish generation").......I've watched them and their Watdog groups (AARP in particular), stonewall any attempt to fix the root causes of the problem in social security for decades......totally, selfishly, fighting for what they consider their rewards, their entitlement.

Your premise is that it's only in the last few years that this fight has occured.....it's been stonewalled since the late 60's.

Blame the most selfish generation, the Baby boomers are just following their lead.

Len

You bet your ass I'm angry about this issue. I don't need a couch, I need you to tell me how much extra taxes you pay. How much?

take your hate filled xenophobia elsewhere.

There are so many mischaracterizations in your bigoted tirade that it's hard to know where to start.

The idea that they all are coming here to mooch on the entitlement systems is so much hooey.........Mexican immigrants legal or illegal are some of the most hard working, concientious workers that I've come across. Most of them are really trying to improve their and their families lot in life. Are their exceptions, sure, are they a small percentage, yes, but as Fredke so aptly points out, if we don't so something about the imbalance of workers to retirees, it's going to be a pretty uncomfortable US in 25 years.

What you really want is more immigration of english speaking people that look like you.....at least be honest about it.

Len

You bet your ass I'm angry about this issue. I don't need a couch, I need you to tell me how much extra taxes you pay. How much?

As the Man in Black says to the Spaniard..." Get Used to Disappointment."

As the Man in Black says to the Spaniard..." Get Used to Disappointment."


How about a dollar amount? Or if you have privacy concerns, which I can appreciate, how about the percentage over that you paid.?

So how much?

You characterize immigrants as lazy freeloaders, but here's a story about how a businesswoman who wants easier legal immigration because she can't find Americans willing to do manual labor even at $34 per hour.

From the LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-jobs18may18,0,2857043.story?coll=la-home-headlines):
[indent][i]Cyndi Smallwood is looking for a few strong men for her landscaping company. Guys with no fear of a hot sun, who can shovel dirt all day long. She'll pay as much as $34 an hour.

She can't find them.

.......

"Every time someone says illegal immigrants take jobs from Americans or do jobs Americans don't want, I want to scream," UCLA economist Christopher Thornberg says.

This argument makes Smallwood want to scream herself. On a recent job that went into overtime, a Diversified Landscape foreman, Vincente Sanchez, was making $52.34 an hour.

"How high can you go?" she says.

Yep, I just read this in this morning's paper. We need more laborers here. We need to open up the borders a bit more and let more immigrants in. The shortage of laborers is not good for businesses here.

Rocket scientists are not the ones flooding over the border into this country. They are non English speaking non English writing Mexicans, that's not being racist it's calling it like it is. Of course the illegals aren't stupid. They certainly know how to work our entitlement programs and how to get free health care by piling into the emergency rooms across this country. Except it's not free. I'm paying for it.
My wife is trying to hire rocket-scientist types from overseas and one of the big problems is getting permission for them to come here legally.

You may not realize this, but several of the major scientific societies and a number of high-technology companies have been complaining that the difficulties getting visas for top scientists and engineers to come to the U.S. is threatening the global competitiveness of our industries.

I have helped supervise Ph.D. research for a number of top-notch physicists and biomedical engineers who came to this country from Mexico. Many of these guys and gals were much better than the U.S. students I see. Not only could they read and write (English and Spanish), but they know a lot more calculus than the average American. We should be grateful that they want to come to our country.

How about a dollar amount? Or if you have privacy concerns, which I can appreciate, how about the percentage over that you paid.?

So how much?

How much are you willing to pay to keep them out? It's going to cost money ...

1) Hire and train Border Patrol. Did you know that they only get one agent for every 300 applicants? Mostly because there is a very high drop out rate (have to learn Spanish and a bunch of legal stuff and are payed less than most local police)? Did you know that they don't have room in the academy to train as many new agents as GWB wants to hire? Getting more agents will cost money.

2) Jobs that illegals have been doing will need to get done by someone else. It might take quite a bit of money to entice physical labor adverse Americans to take those jobs. That will cause inflation to rise.

So it's going to cost either way. Doesn't it make sense to find a cost effective mehtod to handle all this? Tossing everyone out and building a wall won't be the most cost effective solution.

"Cynic"? He's more like a savant--perfectly nailed the situation.

My wife is trying to hire rocket-scientist types from overseas and one of the big problems is getting permission for them to come here legally.

You may not realize this, but several of the major scientific societies and a number of high-technology companies have been complaining that the difficulties getting visas for top scientists and engineers to come to the U.S. is threatening the global competitiveness of our industries.

I have helped supervise Ph.D. research for a number of top-notch physicists and biomedical engineers who came to this country from Mexico. Many of these guys and gals were much better than the U.S. students I see. Not only could they read and write (English and Spanish), but they know a lot more calculus than the average American. We should be grateful that they want to come to our country.

That sucks! I feel for your wife. Finding good help has always been a challenge.

The overwhelming majority for the illegal immigrants from Mexico are poor and uneducated. The Mexican government is deporting their own poverty problem by sending them to the US. THe problem isn't rocket scientist coming here. C'mon you know that damn well.

BTW, I do know how the social security program works. You have to pay in for ten years to collect, but not ten years as a citizen. So you illegal time here counts as part of the ten years. How the Hell can we prove or disprove that someone wasn't here when they are ILLEGAL.

You want more rocket scientist here, as do I. Because those folks are a net gain to our society. It's a no brainer.

BTW, I'm not xenophobic. It's ridiculous to think that I am fearful of people from Xeno. Some of my best friends are Xeno's.

illegalimmigrants help the SS problem as most working here (on fake SS #'s) pay into the system and they'll never recoup any of it. They are helping make up the ration as you may have 10 plus people working on the same SS#. None whom will ever be able to draw upon it. I see a difference between the boomers and the X or whatever comes next. Boomers still saying "We're gonna get what we were promised" while those of us after say "We were promised but most likely ain't gonna get shite" so yes there is a sense of entitlement there, what you are owed, promised whatever. We all were given the same expectations and we're just more honest about our chances.

You have to pay in for ten years to collect, but not ten years as a citizen. So you illegal time here counts as part of the ten years. How the Hell can we prove or disprove that someone wasn't here when they are ILLEGAL.
It should be simple. I don't know, but I presume that the State Department actually keeps records of visas and green cards. It would be simple to look up whether someone actually had a legitimate social-security number and a legitimate green card or work visa for the time they are claiming for SS credit.

If the government isn't even keeping records of who it's letting in legally, then we're in real trouble.

It should be simple. I don't know, but I presume that the State Department actually keeps records of visas and green cards. It would be simple to look up whether someone actually had a legitimate social-security number and a legitimate green card or work visa for the time they are claiming for SS credit.

If the government isn't even keeping records of who it's letting in legally, then we're in real trouble.

For a Rocket scientst manager you come across as pretty niave. What kind of paper work do you get when you swim across the Rio Grande. Give me a break!

How much are you willing to pay to keep them out? It's going to cost money ...


Nothing! Not a single red cent. The government has plenty of money. They just spend too much of it on pork. Congress needs to stop spedning "OUR" money like drunken sailers. Keep taxes low to keep the money in the hands of the people that produce. Tax revenues are at all time highs. There is enough money to plug the holes in the border.

Next question.

illegalimmigrants help the SS problem as most working here (on fake SS #'s) pay into the system and they'll never recoup any of it. They are helping make up the ration as you may have 10 plus people working on the same SS#. None whom will ever be able to draw upon it. I see a difference between the boomers and the X or whatever comes next. Boomers still saying "We're gonna get what we were promised" while those of us after say "We were promised but most likely ain't gonna get shite" so yes there is a sense of entitlement there, what you are owed, promised whatever. We all were given the same expectations and we're just more honest about our chances.


You must be laughing when you right your posts. Illegal immigrants keeping SS afloat. Good one! Dude, most illegals are paid cash under the table.

I do agree with you on what people our age can expect from SS. SS for us is more like Start Saving now.

most illegals work at legit jobs and get paid legit paychecks. Construction, Textiles, Hotels and Restaurants, Country Clubs, Meat Packing, etc... farms as nauseum. I have about 20 latin Americans I supervise and I have no idea which are legit and which aren't. I know they all had paperwork, they all get paid by check with taxes, SS, etc withheld, little ofich they will collect.

the only under the table types are the guys out front and they are hired by folks like us for day labor. they don't make up a huge majority of workers. A huge portion of the illegals down here work legit, the gov does nothing to crack down on the businesses that don't do checks on them. I gotta assume you don't live anywhere where there' a huge illegal workforce. 25% of the nations total are here in CA, we have decades of experience with this which this whole shebang is much ado about nothing,just pandering to the cracker right in an election year.

most illegals work at legit jobs and get paid legit paychecks. Construction, Textiles, Hotels and Restaurants, Country Clubs, Meat Packing, etc... farms as nauseum. I have about 20 latin Americans I supervise and I have no idea which are legit and which aren't. I know they all had paperwork, they all get paid by check with taxes, SS, etc withheld, little ofich they will collect.

the only under the table types are the guys out front and they are hired by folks like us for day labor. they don't make up a huge majority of workers. A huge portion of the illegals down here work legit, the gov does nothing to crack down on the businesses that don't do checks on them. I gotta assume you don't live anywhere where there' a huge illegal workforce. 25% of the nations total are here in CA, we have decades of experience with this which this whole shebang is much ado about nothing,just pandering to the cracker right in an election year.


with JBrumm on this one. I see illegals frequently in the ER, I still remember the guy that gave a social security number, name, and demographics of a guy named Pedro whose age was listed as 55. The problem was, the guy could not have been older than 19. Chalk up one more visit, about 2600 dollars on our tax dime. I have no problem with worker visas, and legal immigration, but we have a legal way to become a citizen, if you choose not to follow that, than there will have to be some repercussions.

For a Rocket scientst manager you come across as pretty niave. What kind of paper work do you get when you swim across the Rio Grande. Give me a break!
Of course illegals don't have paperwork. But legals DO. So assume that anyone without paperwork is illegal. It's that simple. If you pay Social Security benefits only to people who have legal paperwork on file for EVERY YEAR they are claiming, you avoid the problem of illegals. All this takes is for the Dept. of State to cross-reference its visa records with the Social Security Administration.

Of course illegals don't have paperwork. But legals DO. So assume that anyone without paperwork is illegal. It's that simple. If you pay Social Security benefits only to people who have legal paperwork on file for EVERY YEAR they are claiming, you avoid the problem of illegals. All this takes is for the Dept. of State to cross-reference its visa records with the Social Security Administration.

Stick to the academy Fredke, you obviously have no idea how government works. Have you ever noticed that nobody has a problem with the "legal" immigrants. It's the illegals that are the problem. The SS admin couldn't cross reference their own arse's if their lives depended upon it. Btw, the social security admin is the cure all for the problems of illegal immigration. The grocery list of social ailments is far deeper than mere SS payments.

That is not the American DREAM. The deal has always been, please let me in and I will make it better for myself and those that come after me. The pilgrims didn't show up on Plymouth Rock to leach off of the American Worker. Stop bulls_ _ _ ing me and everybody else with your blind as Ray Charles liberal propaganda.
Didn't the Pilgrims show up and then mooch off the Indians?

The SS admin couldn't cross reference their own arse's if their lives depended upon it. Btw, the social security admin is the cure all for the problems of illegal immigration. The grocery list of social ailments is far deeper than mere SS payments.
You are the one who was focusing on SS payments in your earlier posts. I simply addressed the issue you raised.

If you think it's impractical for the social security administration to cross-reference SS records with State Dep't. visa records, can you give me some evidence for this?

Conversely, if government is so inefficient that it can't cross-reference two databases, how do you propose that the same government will manage to find millions of illegal aliens and deal with them? Surely it's harder to catch illegals who are hiding than to identify illegals who come to you and ask for benefits.

I am trying to listen to you with an open mind, but it's hard when you prefer to reply with snide and insulting comments instead of clear expositions of your position.

Didn't the Pilgrims show up and then mooch off the Indians?
Indeed they did, until they decided to kill the Indians and take their land.

There was a lot of interesting political theory in the mid-17th century about how even though there were lots of Indians living in America, the land was technically uninhabited, so it wasn't theft or usurpation for the Europeans to take everything in sight.

with JBrumm on this one. I see illegals frequently in the ER, I still remember the guy that gave a social security number, name, and demographics of a guy named Pedro whose age was listed as 55. The problem was, the guy could not have been older than 19. Chalk up one more visit, about 2600 dollars on our tax dime. I have no problem with worker visas, and legal immigration, but we have a legal way to become a citizen, if you choose not to follow that, than there will have to be some repercussions.

All poor and minority groups use the ER as their primary source of medical care. It would follow that illegals, without access to fair wages or healthcare, would use the ER. There are plenty of US citizens that abuse the system as well. I imagine that there are plenty of others not just named "Pedro." Furthermore what exactly are you going to do? Turn them away when his arm is cut off? Call INS if you don't see proper ID? Perhaps if you could send the bill to his employer, wait, how would he prove that he is employed and who would do the suing..

If we had universal healthcare.....

The point is that "Pedro" is here and you arent going to get him to quietly hop a bus back to Mexico.

All poor and minority groups use the ER as their primary source of medical care. It would follow that illegals, without access to fair wages or healthcare, would use the ER. There are plenty of US citizens that abuse the system as well. I imagine that there are plenty of others not just named "Pedro." Furthermore what exactly are you going to do? Turn them away when his arm is cut off? Call INS if you don't see proper ID? Perhaps if you could send the bill to his employer, wait, how would he prove that he is employed and who would do the suing..

If we had universal healthcare.....

The point is that "Pedro" is here and you arent going to get him to quietly hop a bus back to Mexico.

"Pedro" didn't have universal healthcare at home and the wages seem fair enough to him for him to cross that border illegally. Is it your contention we have an obligation to see that the illegals who come here get union scale and healthcare?

Indeed they did, until they decided to kill the Indians and take their land.

There was a lot of interesting political theory in the mid-17th century about how even though there were lots of Indians living in America, the land was technically uninhabited, so it wasn't theft or usurpation for the Europeans to take everything in sight.

You know who else took their land? Their fellow Indians did. When one group was stronger and more aggressive then a neighboring group they conquered them and made them slaves.

You're right in that their was a completely different mindset in the mid -17th century, and now it is what it is now. Probably for the better, I might add, but let's not re-paint the past with a rose colored brush. Since man left Africa, and probably while he was there, groups of humans displaced other groups.

I personally don't want to be displaced by our good neighbors from the South. It is estimated that 100 million immigrants could come across the border in the next 20 years. That's a third of our population. That's a concern.

You are the one who was focusing on SS payments in your earlier posts. I simply addressed the issue you raised.

If you think it's impractical for the social security administration to cross-reference SS records with State Dep't. visa records, can you give me some evidence for this?

Conversely, if government is so inefficient that it can't cross-reference two databases, how do you propose that the same government will manage to find millions of illegal aliens and deal with them? Surely it's harder to catch illegals who are hiding than to identify illegals who come to you and ask for benefits.

I am trying to listen to you with an open mind, but it's hard when you prefer to reply with snide and insulting comments instead of clear expositions of your position.

You're right I should be more civil in my discourse. I have a hard time taking some of this stuff seriously because it is so wrongheaded, and I slide into a derogatory tone. I'll try to clean it up, but I'm not making any promises.

We can't round up all the illegals, but we can deny them the employment that they come here for by cracking down on the cheating employers.

I personally don't want to be displaced by our good neighbors from the South. It is estimated that 100 million immigrants could come across the border in the next 20 years. That's a third of our population. That's a concern.

I live in the Southwest. The Mexicans think they own El Paso, and you know what?

Their right.

You dont enter America, till you get past the Boarder Check points.

All poor and minority groups use the ER as their primary source of medical care. It would follow that illegals, without access to fair wages or healthcare, would use the ER. There are plenty of US citizens that abuse the system as well. I imagine that there are plenty of others not just named "Pedro." Furthermore what exactly are you going to do? Turn them away when his arm is cut off? Call INS if you don't see proper ID? Perhaps if you could send the bill to his employer, wait, how would he prove that he is employed and who would do the suing..

If we had universal healthcare.....

The point is that "Pedro" is here and you arent going to get him to quietly hop a bus back to Mexico.

are you trying to say?. Of course there are US citizens who abuse the system, that's my point exactly, unfortunately, according to EMTALA, we can't REFUSE anyone treatment in the ER. Even if WE had universal healthcare, it would STILL not be paid for by the government and would be written off as a loss by the hospital. The point is, we need to try to STOP pedro from getting here in the first place.

We can't round up all the illegals, but we can deny them the employment that they come here for by cracking down on the cheating employers.

yup...any solution that's gonna work has to deal with the employers and private citizens who are willing to hire illegal aliens. They are an integral part of the problem and Bush's plan does little to change this side of the equation. Make it so cost prohibitive to hire illegals that they aren't willing to risk it. Knowingly hire an illegal--lose your business. Maybe not that harsh, but it's gotta be harsher than it is now as all they get is a fine and a slap on the wrist.

Next question.

Uh, perhaps address the economic impact of deporting everyone?

Also, it would probably cost, conservatively, $12 billion and a vast increase in government infrastructure to deport everyone. Are you up for expanding government?

yup...any solution that's gonna work has to deal with the employers and private citizens who are willing to hire illegal aliens. They are an integral part of the problem and Bush's plan does little to change this side of the equation. Make it so cost prohibitive to hire illegals that they aren't willing to risk it. Knowingly hire an illegal--lose your business. Maybe not that harsh, but it's gotta be harsher than it is now as all they get is a fine and a slap on the wrist.

Proving that you knowingly hire illegals will be very difficult to prove. Many illegals have forged docs that look pretty good. How much of the enforcement equation are you prepared to lump onto employers' backs? Added checks to insure legal status will take more time and also require added federal government services.

In other words, it's going to cost businesses more AND it's going to cost the government more.

But not to worry, Brumster has assured me that the Congress is going to quite earmarking and they'll have lots of money to throw at this problem.

Uh, perhaps address the economic impact of deporting everyone?

Also, it would probably cost, conservatively, $12 billion and a vast increase in government infrastructure to deport everyone. Are you up for expanding government?

The idea of deporting everyone, by everyone I assume you mean illegal immigrants, is insane.

Next question.

[QUOTE=Gripped]Proving that you knowingly hire illegals will be very difficult to prove. Many illegals have forged docs that look pretty good. How much of the enforcement equation are you prepared to lump onto employers' backs? Added checks to insure legal status will take more time and also require added federal government services.
QUOTE]

well put.considering we've had 2 huge businesses with military security clearances that had 50 plus illegals working with forged docs shows how good they are. It got past the employer and the Gov.

The idea of deporting everyone, by everyone I assume you mean illegal immigrants, is insane.

Next question.

What's you solution then? Just keep the new ones out and let the ones already here stay?