Hey all, I'm looking to race a bit (or a lot, depnding on how things work out) this summer. I'd like to get a second set of wheels for race use and I was thinking of trying out tubulars to see if I liked them. Keep in mind that I'm a college student and so don't have a lot of money (the understatement of the century). I'd like an inexpensive wheel that's very durable and relatively light (but durability is more important). I'll be running a shimano cassette on the rear, shouldn't be a problem but who knows.

Any thoughts?

Any thoughts?

Read the other umpteen threads that have been posted about what wheels to get in the very recent past maybe? Then ask more pointed questions.

For appx. 400 or so you can get a wheelset built by Ligero( who posts on this forum often)or Mike Garcia @ oddsandendos.com. I've heard lots of good things about them from others and plan to purchase wheels from one of them myself.

Read the other umpteen threads that have been posted about what wheels to get in the very recent past maybe? Then ask more pointed questions.
I thought I was adequately pointed, but to sum up, I'm looking for:

Inexpensive
Durable
Inexpensive
Tubular
Inexpensive
Wheels

Just looking for some recomendations, didn't see any useful threads that suggested tubular wheels (except high-cost CF aero designs) and I though it best to just ask a direct question. I'm just looking to get a set to see if it's worth making an investment in good tubies. As I don't have a lot of money, I like to try things out a bit before I go spend a month's salary on them, that's just me though.

For appx. 400 or so you can get a wheelset built by Ligero( who posts on this forum often)or Mike Garcia @ oddsandendos.com. I've heard lots of good things about them from others and plan to purchase wheels from one of them myself.

I think it will be closer to 700 but perhaps with cheaper hubs you may get to that 400ish range.

I'd like to get a second set of wheels for race use and I was thinking of trying out tubulars to see if I liked them.

Tubulars have higher rolling resistance.... and the tires are a PITA to mount unless you have enough practice to get good at it (surely you've read the "I Hate Tubulars!!!!!!!!!!" thread?). Other than that, I thought they were ok... til the rear came off while powering through a turn in a crit....

I'd go with handbuilt clinchers with aero spokes and rim.

Tubulars have higher rolling resistance.... and the tires are a PITA to mount unless you have enough practice to get good at it (surely you've read the "I Hate Tubulars!!!!!!!!!!" thread?). Other than that, I thought they were ok... til the rear came off while powering through a turn in a crit....

I'd go with handbuilt clinchers with aero spokes and rim.

Surely your not blaming tubulars for an inadequate mounting by someone?

here's a suggestion..... you can build ambrosio crono or velocity escape rims with ultegra hubs and dt revolution or competition spokes. this will get you at your price range and give you a solid racable tubular wheel. it will be easily repairable and very functional....what you need for racing....no?

Surely your not blaming tubulars for an inadequate mounting by someone?

That's just it... this is something that can happen with tubulars. It was mounted by me (my first time) and raced on for about 6 months, and inspected many times before races (by race officials)... including the one where it came off. That was enough for me, considering that they have no performance advantage, and decent tires are very expensive.

If you are convinced you want a set of tubulars, you can probably pick up a set of Mavic Helium Tubulars for between 200-250 on Ebay. Those are relatively light wheels and are certainly race proven (Tour de France, etc. in mid 90s). Only downside is that the front rim is only 26 hole and a replacement could be hard to find. I have several sets of Helium clinchers and they are great wheels.

I've been watching ebay for a little while now, nothing below about 600 for a set. As for the more difficult mounting, I've always been one to not shy away from something because it's hard, and I feel that an important part of being a serious biker is to be knowlegeable about all kinds of equipment, hence me wanting to learn how to use tubulars, and how better to learn than to do it yourself and depend on your work.

I'll contact Ligero and others to get some figures once I know what my financial situation will be like this summer. I might just hold off on this for a while and get an extra set of clinchers until I've got some funds to do this the right way.

I've been watching ebay for a little while now, nothing below about 600 for a set. As for the more difficult mounting, I've always been one to not shy away from something because it's hard, and I feel that an important part of being a serious biker is to be knowlegeable about all kinds of equipment, hence me wanting to learn how to use tubulars, and how better to learn than to do it yourself and depend on your work.

I'll contact Ligero and others to get some figures once I know what my financial situation will be like this summer. I might just hold off on this for a while and get an extra set of clinchers until I've got some funds to do this the right way.

I'm sure that you can have a nice set of wheels built for much less than 600 bucks--no problem. I'm sure that this Ligero fellow is worth a look. Others have had great luck with Ergott or Garcia. As for e-bay, keep looking. Mavic K SLs, in tubbie, routinely go for about 600 or less, especially last year's model, brand spanking new on e-bay. Used ones in excellent shape can be much, much cheaper. I purchased a set of campy nucleons that were about 350 bucks or so, delivered, and I periodically see neutrons or nucleons (nice wheels) listed and selling for around that or so.

Tubulars have higher rolling resistance.... and the tires are a PITA to mount unless you have enough practice to get good at it (surely you've read the "I Hate Tubulars!!!!!!!!!!" thread?). Other than that, I thought they were ok... til the rear came off while powering through a turn in a crit....

I'd go with handbuilt clinchers with aero spokes and rim.

???????
Most tubulars take higher pressure as I recall, so they should have lower rolling resistance. That's why they are used on most dedicated TT wheels, right?

Higher psi does not mean lower rolling resistance (except on track). It will actually increase it once you go over 130 psi or so.

You have it the other way around amigo.

Higher psi does not mean lower rolling resistance (except on track). It will actually increase it once you go over 130 psi or so.

You have it the other way around amigo.


????? I haven't looked into this, so I won't say you are wrong, but I have a hard time understanding why. Can you explain why this is?

????? I haven't looked into this, so I won't say you are wrong, but I have a hard time understanding why. Can you explain why this is?

Actually, when using higher pressures on rough surfaces the rolling resistance losses of the tires doesn't go up (it goes down slightly), but the energy losses in the rest of the system go up (due to increased shock and vibration).

A corellary is how a vehicle with a shock absorbers can roll over rough terrain more easily than a vehicle with a completely rigid suspension. Shock absorbers are also know as "dampers" because they absorb energy - but they also decrease shock and vibration on other components, which results in a net energy savings.

choosing tire pressure to minimize energy losses on rough surfaces is a balance between losses in the tires (the higher the pressure, the lower the losses) and losses due to shock and vibration (the lower the pressure, the the lower the losses).

If I had a dollar for everytime rolling resistance at lower pressures was explained on this board I could buy myself some 404's.
It's got to be close to 2-3 times a week.
Good grief people, read first, ask questions later.

here's a suggestion..... you can build ambrosio crono or velocity escape rims with ultegra hubs and dt revolution or competition spokes. this will get you at your price range and give you a solid racable tubular wheel. it will be easily repairable and very functional....what you need for racing....no?

This set up certainly meets your criteria. The price shoud be in your range up front and allow you enough in your budget to get some good tubular tires. You will not have to cry if you wreck them as repair is cheap and fast too. Should you decide that tubulars are not for you at a later time you still have a good set of hubs. I race the same set up with Chorus hubs and Reflex rims.

As for the more difficult mounting, I've always been one to not shy away from something because it's hard...

Let's face it, it does not take a Rocket Surgeon or a Brain Scientist to do a little research and learn how to mount tubies properly, the first time, without a mess or mistake. As I recall the whiner in the other post did not even prestretch the tubular which is a pretty basic step. Read a little, take your time and your first time will be as easy as if you hooked up with a frustrated, horny divorcee. The scary thing is those folks that can't figure out how to mount a tubular are probably reproducing like rabbits since they probably cannot apply a condom either.

I wasn't asking about overall speed. The statement was made that higher PSI would result in higher rolling resistance. I'm still not sure I buy that. It seems to me that the smaller the contact patch, and the higher the pressure, the lower the rolling resistance would be. I would think that tubular tires would have a lower rolling resistance. I'm not talking about overall speed of the entire system. I know there are lots of variables, and I know how suspension works. I also know that most of the suspension in a bicycle (machine part, the rider does some suspending as well) is in the tires.

I also think that the rolling resistance of a tire is a very, very small part of the overall equation, and that it doesn't matter very much, until extremes are reached. Obviously, 23mm tires will have a lower rolling resistance than mountain bike tires in general.

Does anyone have any information on why lowering the pressure, thereby increasing the flexability of the tire, and increasing the size of the contact patch would lower rolling resistance? If Zinn or someone similar has addressed this topic I would appreciate a link.

...I would appreciate a link.

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesTires_Page.html

Here is some data although I do not know how accurate it is. I just quickly read it and have no opinion regarding the conclusions reached. Would at least make a starting point for discussions or research.

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesTires_Page.html

Here is some data although I do not know how accurate it is. I just quickly read it and have no opinion regarding the conclusions reached. Would at least make a starting point for discussions or research.


Thanks!!! That's very interesting.

You owe me another dollar.
Just cause you can't/won't "buy" it, don't make it not true. Do homework in the future please.
I will post the same thing that I post every time this comes up.
From Zinn.


PSI too high?
Dear Lennard,
I've been reading some of Zipp's comments on tire pressure and rolling resistance attached below. When you really sit down and talk to them about tire pressure they're recommending pressures of 100-120psi (sometimes less) depending on the tire, casing, and environment. I am including comments from Josh at Zipp on this topic. One thing I quickly noticed was the absence of weight in his recommendations. A larger rider running 120 psi compared to a lighter individual (say 30 pounds difference) would exhibit a larger contact patch (resistance or traction however you look at it) due to weight so I'm really not jiving on his basic psi recommendations.

Leaving road conditions out (rain, etc.) what are your thoughts on tire pressure? The common theme of tubulars is the advantage of both weight and tire pressure. The ability to run pressures of 180-200 psi. I know for myself I feel faster (have never tried to test this with rollouts or anything) when running pressures of 140-160 psi (clincher) and 180-200 psi (tubular). I've ridden a number of tires and prefer the ride of higher psi tires such as Vittorias, Vredestein and Tufos.

Do you know of any numbers or tests that prove these thoughts on tire pressure? I've had a number of lengthy conversations with Biomechanists interms of rolling resistance (friction) and don't know how a general recommendation on lower pressures can be faster especially not taking weight into account. It goes against everything I've read about rolling friction. It's pretty easy to point out that the average pro in the peloton only weighs about 150 lbs., so of course it's common sense that they wouldn't need to run similar pressures as you or I, but 100-120 psi seems a bit low when you're talking tire pressure for the most efficient rolling resistances.

I've also been reading your blurbs about tubulars, Tufo and their clincher tubulars. Taking Zipp's tire pressure recommendations in mind where do you stand in regards to Tufo and their clincher tubies and other high pressure tires?
Tom

Dear Tom,
I agree with Josh, and yes, there are lots of test numbers to back it up. It is the same reason a suspension bike (or car) is faster over rough ground - less mass must be accelerated when bumps are encountered, thus saving energy and reducing momentum loss. Every little bump that gets absorbed into your tire (another reason that supple, handmade casings roll faster than stiffer, low-thread-count casings) is a bump that does not lift the entire weight of you and the bike.

You feel fast on a rock-hard tire for a similar reason that people like the feel of stiff brakes (V-brakes with the levers set on low leverage). The brake feels good and stiff because you are doing more of the work. If you increase the leverage, the brake feels spongy, because the extra mechanical advantage allows a modest pull to squish the pads.

When you ride a tire at 170psi, the bike feels really lively and fast. That is because you are being bounced all over the place by the surface roughness of the road. However, every time you are bounced, energy you applied to the pedals to get you up to speed is lost. Also, you have less control of the bike, so it feels like it is going faster, even though it isn't. Ever notice how driving down the highway at 75mph in an old Jeep feels crazy fast, and you can cruise smoothly along at 100mph in a nice Saab or BMW and feel like you are going maybe 60mph unless you are looking at stationary objects passing by?

There is simply no question about it; rolling resistance tests conducted with bicycle tires rolling over surfaces akin to normal road surfaces always indicate the lowest rolling resistance at pressures a lot closer to 100psi than to 170psi! Years ago, for example, I saw results like this at the Continental tire factory. I was told of similar results at a number of other tire factories I have visited.
Lennard

You owe me another dollar.
Just cause you can't/won't "buy" it, don't make it not true. Do homework in the future please.
I will post the same thing that I post every time this comes up.
From Zinn.




I don't owe you anything. There's no reason to get nasty.

I would think that tubular tires would have a lower rolling resistance.

Why would you think that?

I also think that the rolling resistance of a tire is a very, very small part of the overall equation, and that it doesn't matter very much, until extremes are reached.

At racing speeds, rolling resistance is small compared to aerodynamic forces, but it is not very, very small - it is typically about 10-15% of the total drag.

See: Analytic Cycling Page for forces on rider (http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSource_Page.html)

At racing speeds, rolling resistance is small compared to aerodynamic forces, but it is not very, very small - it is typically about 10-15% of the total drag.

And... a variation of 50% in Crr between good quality racing tires is common... so we are talking about ~5% variation in total power output, which isn't trivial for competition. Choose your tires wisely if you are racing.