He can't even wait for the investigation to be complete before he starts branding our fine men and women as cold blooded killers! This is not how our legal or military justice system works - to try these people in the news is a disgrace. He should step down!
Link (http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1808360.php)

He can't even wait for the investigation to be complete before he starts branding our fine men and women as cold blooded killers! This is not how our legal or military justice system works - to try these people in the news is a disgrace. He should step down!
Link (http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1808360.php)

While I agree that a politician should certainly wait for an investigation to be completed, I wouldn't doubt that Mr. Murtha has contacts within the military that have given him a heads up as to the direction the case/investigation is going. He certainly will look bad if these troops aren't convicted. If that is the case, then you are correct. He should step down.

I also think Murtha is quite sick of this unnecessary war.

I also think Murtha is quite sick of this unnecessary war.

as many of us are and have been from the start.

While I agree that a politician should certainly wait for an investigation to be completed, I wouldn't doubt that Mr. Murtha has contacts within the military that have given him a heads up as to the direction the case/investigation is going.

Murtha is an ex-Marine. He has very good contacts with the military portion of the Pentagon. I'm willing to give him some slack on this. If the soldiers did what they are accused of, they should be disciplined.

He can't even wait for the investigation to be complete before he starts branding our fine men and women as cold blooded killers! This is not how our legal or military justice system works - to try these people in the news is a disgrace. He should step down!
Link (http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1808360.php)

Will not forget. He will get his just reward...

Murtha is an ex-Marine.

He is also an ex drill instructor, and that job does not go to anything other than top notch marines.

"our fine men and women"
.
You can tell that you've already made your mind up.
.
.
"Kill 'em, nits grow into lice."

He is also an ex drill instructor, and that job does not go to anything other than top notch marines.

I don't know why he would go public with statements so prejudicial to the case for the Marines involved both in the investigative proceedings that are currently going on or in the court of world opinion. He would seem to have made up his mind on this case and it would be much better for all concerned and this nation to have waited for the outcome of the afore mentioned investigation. There are those who will not accept anything that exonerates these young people no matter what. If they are guilty, it will also taint the outcome, claims will be made that these findings would not have happened without his pressure. It seems to either be politically and selfishly motivated or his judgement is seriously questionable.

It's like Stalin said "One death is a tragedy- a thousands deaths just statistics." We're all frustrated to helplessly read about American servicemen being blown up every week. I believe Murtha proposal to move them offshore to Kuwait was his frustration boiling over since the White House apparently thinks their lives are of secondary importance.

It seems to either be politically and selfishly motivated or his judgement is seriously questionable.

I'm agreeing with you here. I wonder what he was thinking.

I don't know why he would go public with statements so prejudicial to the case for the Marines involved both in the investigative proceedings that are currently going on or in the court of world opinion. He would seem to have made up his mind on this case and it would be much better for all concerned and this nation to have waited for the outcome of the afore mentioned investigation. There are those who will not accept anything that exonerates these young people no matter what. If they are guilty, it will also taint the outcome, claims will be made that these findings would not have happened without his pressure. It seems to either be politically and selfishly motivated or his judgement is seriously questionable.

I'm not going to defend him or his comments, but there is nothing wrong with anyone making up his or her mind on any case. I'm sure you yourself had a few comments about OJ's guilt or innocence <i>during</i> his trial. So what? It doesn't change the fact that the court will do what courts do, which is give the Marines a fair trial, regardless of what politicians might say.

If he had instead said something about how Marines were obviously innocent of all charges, would you also say his comments were politically and selfishly motivated or his judgement is seriously questionable? I doubt it. Come down from the ivory tower.

I'm agreeing with you here. I wonder what he was thinking.

It is hard to understand. Old Ed seemed to believe Murtha was the voice of the military when he was advocating pulling out. I sort of doubt that, maybe because it doesn't fit what I believe. It looks to me like he simply doesn't support this war and is doing what he thinks is right to oppose it. This thing seems to be a lose, lose situation for the military he served and says he loves. I give him the benefit of the doubt and think it is an error in judgement on his part.

IIf he had instead said something about how Marines were obviously innocent of all charges, would you also say his comments were politically and selfishly motivated or his judgement is seriously questionable? I doubt it. Come down from the ivory tower.

If he had said something in defence of the troops I would have not said anything bad about him.

But here is the thing. Anytime the press gets ahold of a story like this, the military will punish those troops even worse then before.

The military system is nothing like the civilian one. Chances are good that if your going to a military court, then your going to jail, it's just a question of how long.

If he had instead said something about how Marines were obviously innocent of all charges, would you also say his comments were politically and selfishly motivated or his judgement is seriously questionable? I doubt it. Come down from the ivory tower.

I think that if he had any information that the case weren't being handled correctly then that would have been worth speaking out about. As an elected official, I think he should refrain from making predjudicial statments about guilt.

This is really confounding.

My take is that the information was going to come out anyway and Murtha decided to use it to further his criticism of the war. I think the most telling quote is "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," he said. "And that's what the report is going to tell." Perhaps I'm reading too much into this but he seems to be saying that stuff like this is going to happen when you put soldiers into situations like this. Lets get them out of these situations.


From the New York Times:

Inquiry Implies Civilian Deaths in Iraq Topped Initial Report

By THOM SHANKER
Published: May 19, 2006

WASHINGTON, May 18 — An official military investigation into allegations that American marines killed innocent Iraqis last November has uncovered evidence that the number of dead civilians is higher than the 15 originally reported, Congressional and Defense Department officials said.

The inquiry, which Pentagon officials said was still weeks from completion, has already raised fundamental questions about the propriety of actions by the troops, one Defense Department official said. But the official said that a characterization this week by a member of Congress that the Iraqis had been killed "in cold blood" was an extreme description of the incident.

In the incident, marines patrolling Haditha, in western Iraq, in November opened fire after being hit by a roadside bomb and coming under small-arms fire from a nearby house, the military says. One marine was reported killed by the bomb.

But details of the incident went unreported until March, when Time magazine said Iraqi human rights advocates had accused the marines of killing civilians and after the military had opened an inquiry and admitted that 15 Iraqi civilians had been killed in the cross-fire.

Another Pentagon official said Thursday that the marines had come under fire but that evidence gathered so far indicated the hostile fire had not come from the house where the civilians were killed. Defense Department officials had to be promised anonymity to discuss the case because of the continuing inquiry.

On Wednesday, Representative John P. Murtha, Democrat of Pennsylvania, talked about the investigation at a news conference on Capitol Hill. "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," he said. "And that's what the report is going to tell."

He said he had not read the official findings of the inquiry, but had been told about them by officers he identified as commanders.

Mr. Murtha said the number of Iraqi civilians killed was about twice the initial report of 15. Defense Department officials said Thursday that evidence indicated that more than 15 had been killed, but that the inquiry had not confirmed his estimate of double that number.

A leading Congressional critic of the Iraq war, Mr. Murtha served in Vietnam in the Marine Corps and was known as a hawk on military issues before becoming a leader of Democratic Party efforts to withdraw American troops from Iraq.

"Now, you can imagine the impact this is going to have on those troops for the rest of their lives and for the United States in our war and our effort in trying to win the hearts and minds," Mr. Murtha said. "We can't sustain this operation."

A spokesman for Marine forces in the Middle East, Lt. Col. Sean D. Gibson, said Wednesday that he could not comment on the substance of Mr. Murtha's statements because the inquiry was not complete.


House Panel to Examine Iraq Raid Probe

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: May 19, 2006

Filed at 4:53 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A House committee will review the military's investigation into a firefight in western Iraq involving U.S. Marines that left at least 15 civilians dead, the panel's chairman said Friday.

Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., said a committee hearing will not address the substance of the incident last November in Haditha but rather will review the process of how the investigation was carried out.

The military began the administrative investigation to review whether the Marines involved lied about what happened.

Hunter, the House Armed Services Committee chairman, said the results of the investigation are expected to be delivered to Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, commander of Multi-national Corps Iraq, late next week, and a hearing could occur shortly thereafter.

On Wednesday, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the attack by Marines was far worse than originally reported. Murtha said Marines killed innocent women and children ''in cold blood'' and that nearly twice as many people were killed than first reported.

Military officials said Thursday their investigation of the matter was incomplete, but they did not dispute Murtha's charge that the incident was more serious than initial reports indicated.

Officials have said 15 Iraqis, eight insurgents and a Marine were killed, and Hunter said he expected the report to show that ''in the neighborhood of 20 or so'' people died.

Separately, the Naval Criminal Investigative Service has launched a criminal investigation.

About a dozen Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, are being investigated for war crimes in connection with the firefight to determine if they violated the rules of military engagement.

And Murtha is NOT the one to decide what is fact and what is right and what is wrong.

Cold Blood? Murderers? Didn't we hear some smack about the Koran being flushed down a toilet AND didn't that smack lead to suicide/homicide bombers in the ME?


First, this incident has been widely reported in the UK and other english language press around the world (regardless of what Ollie North has to say).

Second, I have read (in the albeit very anti-war Nation) that there were no bullet holes on the outside of the homes which implies that the soldiers had to enter the homes to kill the women and children. I'll search further for corroboration.

Third, some US soldiers doing really bad things dosn't imply that all soldiers are bad. If this was cold blooded murder, then lets let the investigation show that. I'm all for the investigation and I'm not prejudging these guys. It looks bad for them though.

Here's the LA Times story that has give rise to a NCIS investigation:

Three Marine Commanders Relieved of Duties
The move comes as their battalion is investigated in the November deaths of Iraqi civilians.
By Tony Perry, Times Staff Writer
April 8, 2006

CAMP PENDLETON — A top Marine general fired a battalion commander and two company commanders Friday amid an investigation into whether Marines from the battalion wantonly killed Iraqi civilians in a November firefight.

Maj. Gen. Richard Natonski, commanding general of the 1st Marine Division, relieved Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, and two of his company commanders, Capt. James Kimber and Capt. Luke McConnell, of their duties. The three have been reassigned.

Marine Corps spokesman 2nd Lt. Lawton King said Natonski relieved the three of command because he lacked confidence in their leadership, based on their recent deployment to Iraq and a series of actions by the battalion.

It was unclear what the three officers did to lose Natonski's confidence. Under military rules, a commander can be relieved for the actions of his subordinates even if he knew nothing of those actions.

Military officials are investigating allegations by Iraqi civilians that Marines burst into several homes in Haditha, near Baghdad, on Nov. 19 and began firing indiscriminately.

Moments earlier, a Marine had been killed in a roadside bombing. When the incident first became public, the Marine Corps said the Iraqis had been killed in the explosion.

But video footage taken by the Iraqis showing the bloody bodies with gunshot wounds threw that assertion into dispute. Officials later said they had been killed in crossfire.

Fifteen Iraqi civilians were killed, including seven women and three children. Eight insurgents also were killed.

The Marine killed by the bomb was identified as Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas of El Paso, a member of Kilo Company of the 3rd Battalion.

Investigators are attempting to determine whether other Marines, angered at Terrazas' death, went on a rampage, ignoring rules meant to minimize civilian casualties. McConnell was the commanding officer of Kilo Company.

The tape of the bodies has been shown on Iraqi television, and the Baghdad Center for Human Rights has called for an investigation.

Troops could face courts-martial for violation of Geneva Convention protections for noncombatants if the inquiry determines that action is warranted.

Haditha is considered a stronghold of insurgent support. Militant leaders are thought to have fled there after the U.S. assault on Fallouja in November 2004.

About 25,000 Marines from Camp Pendleton and Twentynine Palms recently returned to Iraq to assume responsibility for much of the so-called Sunni Triangle, an area north and west of the capital that includes Fallouja. For many of the Marines, it is their third deployment to Iraq.

Natonski relieved the three officers of command on the same day he attended a memorial service at this sprawling base for nine Marines from the 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, killed in November along the Syrian border.

I recently heard there was a US military photo journalist team that went in immediately after the killings and they documented everything and they have pics of the scene. Women and children shot in a prayer pose. Not good. Murtha is probably spouting off about it cause the investigation is now being intentionally stalled by the military because of the bad PR.

This isn't good.

I recently heard there was a US military photo journalist team that went in immediately after the killings and they documented everything and they have pics of the scene. Women and children shot in a prayer pose. Not good. Murtha is probably spouting off about it cause the investigation is now being intentionally stalled by the military because of the bad PR.

This isn't good.

This will turn out to be a sad event. 1 more reason why war sucks, no matter what the outcome :(

This will turn out to be a sad event. 1 more reason why war sucks, no matter what the outcome :(

Amen.

It's just one of the biggest reasons to avoid war at all costs. You guys in the military seem to understand that pretty well. There was a huge debate about this here about a year or two ago.

When we fail to learn from the mistakes of past wars, we are destined to repeat them.

Gawd, the parallels between Iraq and Nam are just striking! Now Bush has his own My Lai in Iraq?

Truly sad.

just as somewhere there are people whose minds are made up with the belief that jihad-suicide bombers are the
"fine young men".

is it the act of crimes against humanity
(wether it be in the name of slaying the infidel, or, promoting democracy),
or the fact that it (one of many perpetrated by the us under the bush regime) is being investigated and condemned the real prob?


"our fine men and women"
.
You can tell that you've already made your mind up.
.
.
"Kill 'em, nits grow into lice."

He can't even wait for the investigation to be complete before he starts branding our fine men and women as cold blooded killers! This is not how our legal or military justice system works - to try these people in the news is a disgrace. He should step down!
Link (http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1808360.php)

OK...the Pentagon is reporting the same thing Murtha said earlier...good enough source for you now Steam?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

OK...the Pentagon is reporting the same thing Murtha said earlier...good enough source for you now Steam?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

Pentagon sources? Or an official statement released from the pentagon?

I find this portion somewhat troubling :(

An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued. Time Warner is the parent company of Time magazine and CNN.

OK...the Pentagon is reporting the same thing Murtha said earlier...good enough source for you now Steam?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html

The thing is, why did Murtha have to say it? It isn't a Democrat/Republican problem, it is a military one and an American one. These things happen in wars, young men lose it when they get tired of seeing their buddies killed and the frustration sometimes boils over. That isn't excusing it, just acknowledging the reality. Now you can tell me theat the Military wouldn't have come clean had Murtha not exposed them and my original thought on this thread will be complete.

This has been in the headlines lately and it hit me...Dems and Libs are so entrenched in this story and why?

Let me tell you that Dems and Libs did not give a ______ about any dead Iraqi ever before. In fact, when Saddam was slaughtering folks under his regime, raping women, cutting limbs and torturing, there was no battlecry. Now they care about a dead Iraqi? it seems they care only if/when an American soldier fouls up (and this remains to be seen).

You don't want us in Iraq and any element you can squeeze on, grab to create friction...you'll do it. It's not the dead Iraqi you care about, it's the fact that a USA soldier may have done it.

Your side didn't give 2 shiites about the Iraqis either, as long as Saddam was fighting Iran.

I think if you go back, and review a lot of the posts on this site from the known "liberals" on this site, we have been talking (at least I know I have) about the cost of this war in Iraqi lives as well as Americans. Which, by the way, the Iraqis are being killed a lot more than American troops.

No I don't want us in Iraq. Never did, and never could see a reason behind it. If it was to depose a brutal dictators, there are worse guys running countries in this world than Saddam when he was running Iraq. And you're right, I do care if a US soldier did it. They, whether I like it or not, put a face to Americans around the world. A soldier, or a group of soldiers do bad things, they need to be punished, severely, sent to jail at Levenworth for the rest of their lives, if they are proven to be guilty of the crimes they have been accussed of. This is not about creating friction, this is about saying, we're the good guys, and we need to be acting like it. In some cases, we're not acting like it. Yeah, I know, it's war, but again, remember, we're supposed to be the beacon of freedom and everything good, but when your soldiers run around and shoot innocent civilians without justification, it makes the people who did it just as bad as Saddam's boys who were doing the same thing. How do you justify, if these guys are found guilty, or how would you justify what they did? There appears to be a lot of evidence pointing in the direction of innocents being killed execution style, for no reason, and they had no connection to the attack that killed one of their buddies.