I suppose this has come up in other threads, but I just wanted to discuss the narrow issue of amnesty for illegal aliens.

Isn't this a bit like someone stealing a car, and then telling them that if they can drive it for 4 years without getting caught, they get to keep it?

I suppose this has come up in other threads, but I just wanted to discuss the narrow issue of amnesty for illegal aliens.

Isn't this a bit like someone stealing a car, and then telling them that if they can drive it for 4 years without getting caught, they get to keep it?

Yes it is. There are so many problems with what is being proposed. Why are they sending troops to the border to simply watch and report? We have citizens performing that task today and this adminstration has called them vigilantes. What is needed is support for the thin Border Patrol personel on the enforcement side of the equation. We see them and report them, we need someonne to augment the enforcement portion.

We hear over and over that we can't deport 12 million people, why not?
I think we will get a guest worker program and maybe it is needed for both countries but we don't need another amnesty with the accompanying empty promises of enforcement. Lets have enforcement first and then instigate a program that can track these people and insure that they work within guidelines and go home at some point. If we need a more open path for legal immigration, address that seperately. We are going to get nothing, nothing but an increase in illegals here in this country and they truely are a burden on our social service systems, in spite of all the rhetoric and statistics to the contrary.

I suppose this has come up in other threads, but I just wanted to discuss the narrow issue of amnesty for illegal aliens.

Isn't this a bit like someone stealing a car, and then telling them that if they can drive it for 4 years without getting caught, they get to keep it?

It's the result of this not being a black and white issue. If it was we'd just round em all up and send em packing.

I suppose this has come up in other threads, but I just wanted to discuss the narrow issue of amnesty for illegal aliens.

Isn't this a bit like someone stealing a car, and then telling them that if they can drive it for 4 years without getting caught, they get to keep it?

You are the lawyer- ever heard of statute of limitations? All sorts of crimes become unpunishable after a certain point in time.

I completely agree with Snake. I also think, however, this issue is being way over-blown.

You are the lawyer- ever heard of statute of limitations? All sorts of crimes become unpunishable after a certain point in time.

Some crimes are done and complete. Steal a car and burn it. Statute starts running. Others are of a continuing nature. Steal a car and keep driving it -- you're still in possession of stolen property, and that crime will continue as long as you are in possession.

I assume that if it's a crime to enter the U.S. illegally, it's not only a crime of entering, but also remaining in the country illegally. Plus, there are probably all sorts of crimes that continue, like driving without insurance or license, not paying taxes, etc.

That sounds reasonable at first, but truthfully, you have to admit it's an apples to oranges argument. Sneaking into the country is basically a victimless crime, while stealing a car is most definitely not.

Weak argument aside, I am not for amnesty at all. I think it is a huge slap in the face of all the people who are following the rules and procedures to become citizens or legal residents legally.

I completely agree with Snake. I also think, however, this issue is being way over-blown.

I agree the whole immigration issue is maybe overblown. Secure the border. Period. There isn't really a need to discuss a national language, work permits, amnesty, etc., just to get the security issue done. However, some are trying to tie the security issue to things like amnesty, for political gain or maybe as a poison pill so that nothing gets done. So, I suppose it has to be addressed.

The problem with amnesty is that it encourages people to repeat the process. Sure, we'll again say "this is the last time," but no one has much credability there.

First, I think there is an important differentiation that must be made when referring to illegal "aliens" vs illegal "immigrants."

By the definition, illegal "aliens" owe an allegiance to their country of origin and do not wish to assimilate. Whereas, illegal immigrants wish to immigrate and possibly become citizens one day.

When the protests first started, we saw illegal aliens waving the Mexican flag. Then they heard the backlash and began waving the American flag.

So, I'd say the distiction between the "alien" vs "immigrant" is an important one.

We are going to get nothing, nothing but an increase in illegals here in this country and they truely are a burden on our social service systems, in spite of all the rhetoric and statistics to the contrary.

In spite of statistics to the contrary... interesting rebuttal to your own argument. The social service system in the US largely sucks anyway.... cannot imagine anyone going out of their way to "exploit" it.

I suppose this has come up in other threads, but I just wanted to discuss the narrow issue of amnesty for illegal aliens.

Isn't this a bit like someone stealing a car, and then telling them that if they can drive it for 4 years without getting caught, they get to keep it?

Anyone who took the risk to cross the border, worked hard at an honest occupation, and saved money or sent money back to support their family should be welcomed and honored. I hope that I would have the courage and charactor to do the same in a similar situation.

The few who came for nefarious reasons should be deported.

The border should secured and a large and liberal guest worker program should be started.

The illegal immigrants are no more criminal than the people who crossed from East Germany to West Germany. Both broke a law to escape an abject situtation.

What is needed is support for the thin Border Patrol personel on the enforcement side of the equation. We see them and report them, we need someonne to augment the enforcement portion.

We hear over and over that we can't deport 12 million people, why not?

First, building detention centers isn't sexy. They are badly needed but Congress isn't willing to put up the budget for it. Putting new Border Patrol on the line is difficult as well. They have to learn Spanish and a bunch of legal stuff. Plus, they aren't payed as well as most local law enforcement. The ratio is 300 applicants to each new officer. Attirition is also high because the job is often very boring. Add to that that the academy can't handle as many new recruits as have been called for and you have a recipie for failure.

MONEY. It is going to cost tax $$$ to even make a start at doing what all the immigration hawks want but I haven't heard a peep about funding.

Okay snake, lets do some math about deporting 12 million people. First, we have to identify them. I think that INS is already backlogged taking care of regular immigration. Should we hire more agents? Should we make employers identify illegals? That would be putting law enforcement into the hands of employers -- saddling companies with added costs. SHould local law enforcement be asked to help? I'd rather have my local cops out busting tweakers and bad guys rather than hard working folks.

Now, you have to detain the people you have to deport until you can figure out where they go and their exact legal status. We don't have any kind of detention space to do this -- jails are already overcrowded as it is so they won't work. Next, you will have to transport 12 millions people from all over the US to centers in Mexico -- you will need to feed and shelter them on the way and also make sure that none slip away.. So then you are going to have to coordinate with the Mexican government. We could just drop them over the border -- women children and elderly too -- and watch a humanitarian crisis ensue. Yeah, that would be a good idea.

I'd say it would cost perhaps $1,000 per illegal at a conservative estimate. So it would probably cost around $12 billion to send them home. Just a couple of days in Iraq though.

Gratuitous political comment: The conservative stand on this seems to me like many others: It's based on some concept of The Way Things Should Be, not on reality. That's the same often-fatal mistake liberals are acused of making in attempts to protect the environment, safeguard workers in dangerous jobs, etc.: "We have to live in the world as it is, not the way we wish it was."

Having said that: I understand the objections to what opponents insist on calling amnesty, the "rewarding criminal behavior" stuff and the "taking jobs from 'real Americans' (pronounced 'white people'?)" arguments. I believe a lot of them are racially based, but let that pass.
If we grant that Something Must Be Done (I'm letting that pass, too, because I'm not sure immigration is anything but a red herring at a time when conservatives really, really need one), what can we do? It's ridiculous, just flat loony, to talk about shipping 12 million people "back where they came from." In many areas, including mine, just losing that many consumers would put the economy in the tank, to say nothing of finding replacement workers for the jobs they do, or for that matter finding them in the first place.
We could deny them things like health care and education, the way California tried to do--but then we have millions of impoverished, idle, ignorant people standing around on street corners, the elderly and sick occasionally dropping dead in the gutters and the young, healthy and angry saying, "Screw THIS, I'm going to mug somebody."
Or we could, you know, recognize reality, admit that we've created much of this problem ourselves by allowing businesses to dance around the law and try to assimilate this latest influx of immigrants as we have so many others. Unless you're Native American, your ancestors certainly faced the same challenges, and you think YOU belong here now.

I'd say it would cost perhaps $1,000 per illegal at a conservative estimate. So it would probably cost around $12 billion to send them home. Just a couple of days in Iraq though.

We start putting them in a labor camp jail for 1 year, and pay them 10 dollars a day.

We put them to work, in their new comfy labor camp.

We charge the corporations 20 dollars a day per person for our new labor force

At the end of the year, we give them a choice....

Go back from where you came from, or you can buy a green card for 3,000, which will be good for 2 years....

If they go back, our Gov makes 3,650.

If they stay, our Gov makes 6,650

Note: KendleFox freely admits he is not good at math...

he's just a fine example of the cracker a$$hats the NeoCons pander to. The guys ignorant and bigotted enough to allow these issues to get them to vote against their own self interest. They are just a barometer of Red State America.

In all fairness,Kendle's plan sounds alot like the one that was being put forth in the Senate.
So the party has such cracker thinking all the way to gov. It would be funny if it went through and then they all start losing their jobs to prison/slave labor.

Gratuitous political comment: The conservative stand on this seems to me like many others: It's based on some concept of The Way Things Should Be, not on reality. That's the same often-fatal mistake liberals are acused of making in attempts to protect the environment, safeguard workers in dangerous jobs, etc.: "We have to live in the world as it is, not the way we wish it was."

Having said that: I understand the objections to what opponents insist on calling amnesty, the "rewarding criminal behavior" stuff and the "taking jobs from 'real Americans' (pronounced 'white people'?)" arguments. I believe a lot of them are racially based, but let that pass.
If we grant that Something Must Be Done (I'm letting that pass, too, because I'm not sure immigration is anything but a red herring at a time when conservatives really, really need one), what can we do? It's ridiculous, just flat loony, to talk about shipping 12 million people "back where they came from." In many areas, including mine, just losing that many consumers would put the economy in the tank, to say nothing of finding replacement workers for the jobs they do, or for that matter finding them in the first place.
We could deny them things like health care and education, the way California tried to do--but then we have millions of impoverished, idle, ignorant people standing around on street corners, the elderly and sick occasionally dropping dead in the gutters and the young, healthy and angry saying, "Screw THIS, I'm going to mug somebody."
Or we could, you know, recognize reality, admit that we've created much of this problem ourselves by allowing businesses to dance around the law and try to assimilate this latest influx of immigrants as we have so many others. Unless you're Native American, your ancestors certainly faced the same challenges, and you think YOU belong here now.

I understand your argument and it makes sense on a practical level. The problem I see today is finding a solution that will work in the future. What we don't want is another huge influx of illegals to absorb 10 or 20 years down the road after this "fix." Deporting known illegals seems an apt solution to me. If we are unwilling to do that, then we should have serious border control with whatever entity is fharged wit enforcing it actually being active in the enforcement. Fines for those who employ illegals and an end to the social services they now enjoy. If people end up standing aroung idle on street corners, check their green cards and send them home. If paradise is lost, many of them will go home anyway.

The American Indian argument or we are all immigrants is pointless. We are mostly native americans at this point, two, three and four generations of us. We owe the Indians jack, they had it and they lost it. This is about whether we lose it as well. That there is a racist element involved is without question but why is that wrong? We are still citizens of this country, we built and maintain it and the illegals are trying to partake uninvited. No country has open borders, very few have as liberal an immigration policy as we have. The huge influx of immigrants of the past were needed to build this country and there was room to absorb them. We don't need that kind of influx today and we cannot absorb it, there isn't room n our populated areas. Your example of California without free social services serves to prove that.

We start putting them in a labor camp jail for 1 year, and pay them 10 dollars a day.

We put them to work, in their new comfy labor camp.

We charge the corporations 20 dollars a day per person for our new labor force

At the end of the year, we give them a choice....

Go back from where you came from, or you can buy a green card for 3,000, which will be good for 2 years....

If they go back, our Gov makes 3,650.

If they stay, our Gov makes 6,650

Note: KendleFox freely admits he is not good at math...

By "We," I assume you mean you and your fascist brethren. Now I know who buys those Prussian Blue records.

beating up on immigrants is a lame last ditch attempt take the focus away from the issues at hand that relevant to the demise of repub support.

but look closer, the guest worker program bush espouses is good for us corporate profits, another way (like offshoring) to have more workers than jobs, thus keeping the wages low and profits high.


I completely agree with Snake. I also think, however, this issue is being way over-blown.

who could, in true bushco fashion, run the big gov't bearuacracy at the taxpayer's expense to run the thing?

or would this be hypocritical...



We start putting them in a labor camp jail for 1 year, and pay them 10 dollars a day.

We put them to work, in their new comfy labor camp.

We charge the corporations 20 dollars a day per person for our new labor force

At the end of the year, we give them a choice....

Go back from where you came from, or you can buy a green card for 3,000, which will be good for 2 years....

If they go back, our Gov makes 3,650.

If they stay, our Gov makes 6,650

Note: KendleFox freely admits he is not good at math...

who could, in true bushco fashion, run the big gov't bearuacracy at the taxpayer's expense to run the thing?

or would this be hypocritical...

this be hypocritical

This is just an idea, it doesnt mean it's a good one....

I'm just looking for solutions that will not buden the tax payers, and reduce the flow of traffic...

By "We," I assume you mean you and your fascist brethren. Now I know who buys those Prussian Blue records.

Hey...hey...hey leave the fascists out of that...only Godwinning is permitted when someone comes up with something this caustic.

Did you hear that?
That was the last bit of air escaping from your balloon of credability.

You would be pissed off too, if someone was twisting your words and slandering you to meet their agenda...

You would be pissed off too, if someone was twisting your words and slandering you to meet their agenda...

You know the last time I heard something like that was when there was a troll over in General saying that 'bents should be ban'd or at least have flags:eek::confused::).

PS-bad idea to insult the mods. @ least they seem to have a sense of humour.

You would be pissed off too, if someone was twisting your words and slandering you to meet their agenda...

Twisting your words? You go out of your way to defend a racist joke you posted and we're slandering you? :confused:

You would be pissed off too, if someone was twisting your words and slandering you to meet their agenda...

My words have been twisted, manipulated, used out of context, usurped, belittle, hackneyed, and everything between. Those that did it repeatedly...I no longer converse with...those that do it in jest and have a sense of humor (looks in the general direction of Snakebit)...I enjoy sparring with daily even when they are on the other side of the political spectrum in many respects. People find it easier to twist words when the writing attempts to take on too much, is vague, ill-defined and open to various interpretations. As my professors used to say (and occasionally still do)...in red ink...vague, weak, rework.

My words have been twisted, manipulated, used out of context, usurped, belittle, hackneyed, and everything between. Those that did it repeatedly...I no longer converse with...those that do it in jest and have a sense of humor (looks in the general direction of Snakebit)...I enjoy sparring with daily even when they are on the other side of the political spectrum in many respects. People find it easier to twist words when the writing attempts to take on too much, is vague, ill-defined and open to various interpretations. As my professors used to say (and occasionally still do)...in red ink...vague, weak, rework.

Thanks you for the kind advice. I will work to remember that in the future :)

twisted, hackneyed...I no longer converse with those that have a sense of humor (Snakebit)...I [am] on the other side of the political spectrum. People twist words as my professors say...vague, weak, rework.

I'm shocked!

Twisting your words? You go out of your way to defend a racist joke you posted and we're slandering you? :confused:

If you want to attack my post or a joke, thats one thing.

If you want to attack me by calling me a racist, thats another thing.

Thanks you for the work. Remember that in the future.

????????????????

I'm shocked at your incredible intellectual acuity!

Well thank you Gospodin Jones.

They broke the law, it's no different then what we do to prisoners on chain gangs in AZ?

Go F___Ck yourself you dum_A_S

I'm not a racist, but your an ignorant MO-FO

Upon further reflection (as I stated in another thread), I'll retract my words regarding Kendle's intent for putting forth such a plan. I don't think he's a racist ... just that he holds certain ugly predjudices that he finds it difficult to see.

Still, to suggest labor camps for illegals (with that HUGE hispanic association) after going to the wall defending "the joke" really puts Kendle behind the 8-ball.

Upon further reflection (as I stated in another thread), I'll retract my words regarding Kendle's intent for putting forth such a plan. I don't think he's a racist ... just that he holds certain ugly predjudices that he finds it difficult to see.

Still, to suggest labor camps for illegals (with that HUGE hispanic association) after going to the wall defending "the joke" really puts Kendle behind the 8-ball.

Gee thanks for the retract. I feel so much better knowing you think I hold certain ugly predjudices. Thats so much better then being a racist.

Should I have used the word jail instead of labor camp?

They are criminals by the definition of the law.

In reality, our boarders may never be secure. At the same time, I would like to see the cost of this issue paid for, and not all of it, by Joe the American tax payer.

by Joe the American tax payer.

Not by Pedro the American taxpayer? :)

Oh go blow it out your bottom!

Oh go blow it out your bottom!

My my....:cool:

Oh go blow it out your bottom!

Wasn't it great that the Iraq's had an election?

Wasn't it great that the Iraq's had an election?
Well said me cobber.

// I propose we should all start writing in Loonie here.

thatsmybush? I thought it was my bush? I'll vote for that!

First, building detention centers isn't sexy. They are badly needed but Congress isn't willing to put up the budget for it. Putting new Border Patrol on the line is difficult as well. They have to learn Spanish and a bunch of legal stuff. Plus, they aren't payed as well as most local law enforcement. The ratio is 300 applicants to each new officer. Attirition is also high because the job is often very boring. Add to that that the academy can't handle as many new recruits as have been called for and you have a recipie for failure.

MONEY. It is going to cost tax $$$ to even make a start at doing what all the immigration hawks want but I haven't heard a peep about funding.

Okay snake, lets do some math about deporting 12 million people. First, we have to identify them. I think that INS is already backlogged taking care of regular immigration. Should we hire more agents? Should we make employers identify illegals? That would be putting law enforcement into the hands of employers -- saddling companies with added costs. SHould local law enforcement be asked to help? I'd rather have my local cops out busting tweakers and bad guys rather than hard working folks.

Now, you have to detain the people you have to deport until you can figure out where they go and their exact legal status. We don't have any kind of detention space to do this -- jails are already overcrowded as it is so they won't work. Next, you will have to transport 12 millions people from all over the US to centers in Mexico -- you will need to feed and shelter them on the way and also make sure that none slip away.. So then you are going to have to coordinate with the Mexican government. We could just drop them over the border -- women children and elderly too -- and watch a humanitarian crisis ensue. Yeah, that would be a good idea.

I'd say it would cost perhaps $1,000 per illegal at a conservative estimate. So it would probably cost around $12 billion to send them home. Just a couple of days in Iraq though.

don't have to catch them all together, of course, we could get a running start on Cinco de Mayo. Just start catching them, deporting them and fining the hell out of their employers. They lose their jobs, get easier to locate or simply sneak back home. Just quit whining about it and get started. It isn't an impossible task. The same people who say we can't find something as large as 12 million people claim it should be a cinch to locate one 7' Saudi in Pakistan. ;)

The same people who say we can't find something as large as 12 million people claim it should be a cinch to locate one 7' Saudi in Pakistan. ;)

I'm not saying that it's impossible. And I'm not saying that we have to get all of them. I'm just saying that it's going to cost money to get it done.

I think going after busniesses is a loser. Many illegals have fake docs. Turning businesses into enforcement will mean extra cost to businesses and will also require government support. All that means money. Now if businesses hire illegals with NO paperwork, then fine them to high heaven.

I'm not saying that it's impossible. And I'm not saying that we have to get all of them. I'm just saying that it's going to cost money to get it done.

I think going after busniesses is a loser. Many illegals have fake docs. Turning businesses into enforcement will mean extra cost to businesses and will also require government support. All that means money. Now if businesses hire illegals with NO paperwork, then fine them to high heaven.

I don't know. It should not be too much of a stretch to run a check with the SS admin before hiring. If the guy is supposed to be dead, he probably isn't going to be much help anyway. I think going after business is the quickest way to solve the problem. That it will cost money is a given but everything does and the upside to this will be significant. If it is proven that we need a guest worker program, then we should get it and manage it so that the fraud is no worse than any other govt. program. If we are actively enforcing our laws, the system should right itself within 5 years.

in two posts in one day you make highly bigotted comment s and when people call you on it you fail to recognize it. If,after somebody makes a bigotted comment, someone calls them a bigot that is pretty spot on. Why be suprised or offended by such? If you don't want to be called racist or predjudice, read or reread what you are about to post then ASK YOURSELF THE QUESTION: Is this offensive? Would I tell this joke to a group of said ethnicity? Would they think it funny or give me a beat down? If the answers is ' not think it funny to they'd give me a beat down' than more than likely your statement is bigotted

I don't know. It should not be too much of a stretch to run a check with the SS admin before hiring. If the guy is supposed to be dead, he probably isn't going to be much help anyway. I think going after business is the quickest way to solve the problem. That it will cost money is a given but everything does and the upside to this will be significant. If it is proven that we need a guest worker program, then we should get it and manage it so that the fraud is no worse than any other govt. program. If we are actively enforcing our laws, the system should right itself within 5 years.

you are correct. only by going after the 'demand'side of the equation will this ever change.
it must be harder than we think as I stated over 100 ( 2 companies w/ 50 plus illegals each) got contracts with security clearance to work on military property (ya know 9-11 Homeland security doing a real good job)

the issues with this method are 2-fold. w doesn't want it to effect employers as they are part of his base and a big part of his war chest. second,the Gov (SS admin included) IMHO knows about it and LIKES the free extra $$$

you are correct. only by going after the 'demand'side of the equation will this ever change.
it must be harder than we think as I stated over 100 ( 2 companies w/ 50 plus illegals each) got contracts with security clearance to work on military property (ya know 9-11 Homeland security doing a real good job)

the issues with this method are 2-fold. w doesn't want it to effect employers as they are part of his base and a big part of his war chest. second,the Gov (SS admin included) IMHO knows about it and LIKES the free extra $$$

How about a 3 strikes rule? You get fined the first 2 times--the third you lose your business.

businesses buy the law. they ain't gonna buy that one. which is why this is all a big wag.

I got another one:
Grossly Overcharge the government. CEO (because I believe in accountability and responsibility goes all the way to the top) is arrested, tried, convicted and shot for treason.
(Military court of course)

businesses buy the law. they ain't gonna buy that one. which is why this is all a big wag.

I got another one:
Grossly Overcharge the government. CEO (because I believe in accountability and responsibility goes all the way to the top) is arrested, tried, convicted and shot for treason.
(Military court of course)

A more realistic escalation would be stiff fine, stiffer fine, jail term.

as long as Big Business owns Govt this stuff has as much a chance of happening as Wild Tigers in Africa

I'd say it would cost perhaps $1,000 per illegal at a conservative estimate. So it would probably cost around $12 billion to send them home. Just a couple of days in Iraq though.

Can't remember where I saw this, but I read the other day that estimates for rounding up all 12 million or so, housing them, feeding them until they can be packed up and then shipping them back where they came from are running around $246 billion. Cheaper than the Iraq war, but still a big chunk.
That doesn't allow for some possible complications, though: Lawsuits, citizen resistance when people start seeing pictures of weeping mothers being loaded on trucks, the last 2 million hiding out with friendly citizens,so they have to be rooted out . . . Sending them home is just a lame-ass idea, and I really, really hope the GOP in the House insists on it.