FBI statistics show murders in the U.S. jumped 4.8 percent last year

The world is going to heII in a hand-basket.

I have seen a marked increase in the amount of broken glass on the MUT near the Waipahu area. That and alot more mongoose roadkill. In a handbasket indeed.

I have seen a marked increase in the amount of broken glass on the MUT near the Waipahu area. That and alot more mongoose roadkill. In a handbasket indeed.
And all Bush's fault no doubt. Just ask AJS, Umm, I mean Spydie :D

And all Bush's fault no doubt.

If Clinton's habits caused the youth of america to start having oral sex all the time, then this administration's actions and disrespect for the law could have an effect too.

Or perhaps cuts in drug treatment programs and increases in the numbers living in poverty and such might be a more direct link to the current president.

If Clinton's habits caused the youth of america to start having oral sex all the time, then this administration's actions and disrespect for the law could have an effect too.

Or perhaps cuts in drug treatment programs and increases in the numbers living in poverty and such might be a more direct link to the current president.

I think one could look more to the coarsening of our social relations than to a political reason for the changes in our social patterns today. Hip hop music and Hollywood had more to do with both the blow job question and the glorification of violence. The Bush adminstration would be more likely to inspire non violent criminal behavior than violence, the way it is described here on this forum.

yeah, sure, it is music and movies. That ain't my argument, it is the right wing nutjobs that think video games and such cause people to go out and kill, despite the actual research that shows otherwise.

So, what's the cause? Murder is up all over the nation, even in places like Omaha.

Please note that hip hop has been around a long time, so it can't explain the sudden jump. Movies too, since violence has been glorified since the start of film (cowboy movies, where problems are solved with guns.... every action movie ever made, every cop movie ever made). All that was around last year, and 10 years ago, and 40 years ago.

As I said, Bush has implimented public policy changes that could easily be predicted to increase crime rates. Nice that you ignore the real points I made. Poverty increases lead to crime increases. Drug treatment lowers crime rate, and cutting it leads to more crime. We might throw in PTSD, and the way gangs are sending members to the military so they get training to be more effectively violent, and the military is taking more and more of them. Sic the Justice department on porn, taking resources away from violent crime.

So yeah, I can see lots of ways that the administration has contributed to the problem, mostly by ignoring the problem and cutting programs that fight the problem.

yeah, sure, it is music and movies. That ain't my argument, it is the right wing nutjobs that think video games and such cause people to go out and kill, despite the actual research that shows otherwise.

So, what's the cause? Murder is up all over the nation, even in places like Omaha.

Please note that hip hop has been around a long time, so it can't explain the sudden jump. Movies too, since violence has been glorified since the start of film (cowboy movies, where problems are solved with guns.... every action movie ever made, every cop movie ever made). All that was around last year, and 10 years ago, and 40 years ago.

As I said, Bush has implimented public policy changes that could easily be predicted to increase crime rates. Nice that you ignore the real points I made. Poverty increases lead to crime increases. Drug treatment lowers crime rate, and cutting it leads to more crime. We might throw in PTSD, and the way gangs are sending members to the military so they get training to be more effectively violent, and the military is taking more and more of them. Sic the Justice department on porn, taking resources away from violent crime.

So yeah, I can see lots of ways that the administration has contributed to the problem, mostly by ignoring the problem and cutting programs that fight the problem.

I grew up in the cowboy era of the 50's and 60's. Our heros then were the movie cowboy heros and gunfights were seldom fatal. Lots of hand injuries. Women were treated with respect and the role of men to protect them was projected rather than the idea that they were here for our use and pleasure and were disposable. The hero always vanquished the villain who was usually trying to cheat some young lady out of the family ranch after the death or serious injury of her father.

The glorification of the porn industry by hip hop and even Hollywood has changed our perception of the relationship between men and women. A number of things have changed over that time, women have grown more independent and have steped out of the house and into the business world. The resulting competition in the workplace has also been a contributing factor to ending the old social mores and positions but to think our music and movies don't contribute is unrealistic. They reflect the social views of the day and contribuite to them. I have raised two generations of children and I have seen some of those changes and the effect that music and the personalities of those who make that music have had. I don't need a study to tell me what I have seen.

I grew up in the cowboy era of the 50's and 60's. Our heros then were the movie cowboy heros and gunfights were seldom fatal..... I don't need a study to tell me what I have seen.

Yeah, and at the time you were growing up people were saying those cowboy shows caused kids to be violent. Were those claims valid, or just people saying what they THOUGHT was happening?

You are not just making claims about what you have seen, you are making CAUSAL claims about what CAUSED what you have seen. I saw a rainbow appear and disappear. I saw that. I can claim it was caused by physics and light being scattered, or I can say it was put there by god, or I can say it was caused by the media. But for others to accept my claims, I need some evidence that speaks to the CAUSE.

If it is media, and violence in games, and hip hop, and porn, why was violent crime DOWN in the 90s when all that media stuff was UP? If your claim was a valid one, we should have seen an increase in crime then and not a decrease.

And I notice you don't speak to any cause I brought up. Don't you think poverty, drugs, etc, and social programs that affect them have a direct relationship to crime?

Notice how my claim about poverty works both ways. Poverty down in the 90s, crime down. Poverty up in the 00s, crime up. See how your media claim does not fit the data, my poverty claim does.

But stick with your preconceptions and what your eyes and ideology tell you. Ignore any facts that don't fit with your beliefs. That's the republican way.

I think one could look more to the coarsening of our social relations than to a political reason for the changes in our social patterns today. Hip hop music and Hollywood had more to do with both the blow job question and the glorification of violence. The Bush adminstration would be more likely to inspire non violent criminal behavior than violence, the way it is described here on this forum.

So why were the rates dropping when Clinton ws in office? The coarsening took a holiday? I thought Bush was supposed to restore our moral center? So what happened?

Yeah, and at the time you were growing up people were saying those cowboy shows caused kids to be violent. Were those claims valid, or just people saying what they THOUGHT was happening?

You are not just making claims about what you have seen, you are making CAUSAL claims about what CAUSED what you have seen. I saw a rainbow appear and disappear. I saw that. I can claim it was caused by physics and light being scattered, or I can say it was put there by god, or I can say it was caused by the media. But for others to accept my claims, I need some evidence that speaks to the CAUSE.

If it is media, and violence in games, and hip hop, and porn, why was violent crime DOWN in the 90s when all that media stuff was UP? If your claim was a valid one, we should have seen an increase in crime then and not a decrease.

And I notice you don't speak to any cause I brought up. Don't you think poverty, drugs, etc, and social programs that affect them have a direct relationship to crime?

Notice how my claim about poverty works both ways. Poverty down in the 90s, crime down. Poverty up in the 00s, crime up. See how your media claim does not fit the data, my poverty claim does.

But stick with your preconceptions and what your eyes and ideology tell you. Ignore any facts that don't fit with your beliefs. That's the republican way.

You talk as if you believe poverty, drugs and violence were something new on the scened of hunman endeavor. I learned my social values from my father and my mother and they were products of lives of poverty that you can only read about and try to imagine. Being poor doesn't equate to an abscence of moral values and self respect. Those things are learned and they come from those around you and your social environment. Drugs aren't new. There was cocain, marijuana and heron available in the 50's. Use of those was socially unacceptable. You didn't see movies glorifying that behavior. Whoring and pimps was not something to be admired. The last generation of teens I mentioned raising was late 90's early 21st century. Pimp was a term used do describe someone who was cool, ho and bit%# are women or girls. These are terms used by these young people rather than maam and sir. Now those terms in themselves don't mean much but the lack of respect for each other and themselves that they convey is a bit more important and to the point of our discussion. That lack of respect is directly responsible for the rise in crime. Nothing has value except money, pleasure and power.

It is easy for you to discount what you hear from older generations, all generations do that. All generations move the human experiment forward and life gets easier for us all the time. Even poverty doesn't mean the same in this country that it did in the 30's. It is important as we move forward that we don't lose sight of where we came from. I think that happens more than we like to admit. You discount my experience because it didn't come from some sociological study. Ah, but it did. The study is called life and the lessons from it are valid. If you want to know where things changed, you have to look over your shoulder.

You talk as if you believe poverty, drugs and violence were something new on the scened of hunman endeavor. I learned my social values from my father and my mother and they were products of lives of poverty that you can only read about and try to imagine. Being poor doesn't equate to an abscence of moral values and self respect. Those things are learned and they come from those around you and your social environment. Drugs aren't new. There was cocain, marijuana and heron available in the 50's. Use of those was socially unacceptable. You didn't see movies glorifying that behavior. Whoring and pimps was not something to be admired. The last generation of teens I mentioned raising was late 90's early 21st century. Pimp was a term used do describe someone who was cool, ho and bit%# are women or girls. These are terms used by these young people rather than maam and sir. Now those terms in themselves don't mean much but the lack of respect for each other and themselves that they convey is a bit more important and to the point of our discussion. That lack of respect is directly responsible for the rise in crime. Nothing has value except money, pleasure and power.

It is easy for you to discount what you hear from older generations, all generations do that. All generations move the human experiment forward and life gets easier for us all the time. Even poverty doesn't mean the same in this country that it did in the 30's. It is important as we move forward that we don't lose sight of where we came from. I think that happens more than we like to admit. You discount my experience because it didn't come from some sociological study. Ah, but it did. The study is called life and the lessons from it are valid. If you want to know where things changed, you have to look over your shoulder.


That's all well and good but what you have stated boils down to "these kids today got no respect for their elders" And while Iam sure that this has been said by every generations old men it doesn't make it causally true when speaking of an increase in violence from the 90's to now.

You talk as if you believe poverty, drugs and violence were something new on the scened of hunman endeavor.

Strange, I thought I was talking like someone that thought CHANGES in such factors have effects.

Nice grandpa simpson rant though. It works just as well now as in the 50's (Elvis' hips will destroy america) and the 20's (jazz and booze will destroy america) and probably all through history (the printing press will destroy civilization).

Strange, I thought I was talking like someone that thought CHANGES in such factors have effects.

Nice grandpa simpson rant though. It works just as well now as in the 50's (Elvis' hips will destroy america) and the 20's (jazz and booze will destroy america) and probably all through history (the printing press will destroy civilization).

I didn't say those things would destroy America, I didn't know we were discussing that destruction. I thought it was a question of why crime rates are up and I believe it is related to our changing social values. all the things you listed had an effect on that. You may need some "studies" to refute that idea but take it from grandpa, it happened. I know the values I was taught and I also know that most of the problems in my life can be traced to a violation of those values. Respect for each other and for ourselves are necessary components of a moral compass, respect for yourself being the primary factor. Anything that cheapens those values will cause a breakdown in in social structure provided by them. You like to use poverty as your fall back villain and I tried to point out to you that poverty is not new. Perhaps the idea that poverty is a social injustice inflicted on helpless people rather than a human condition that can be overcome through dedication and hard work has something to do with it?

The FACT remains that your theory, based on coarsening culture, cannot explain the fall in violent crime in the 90s. In fact, according to your theory, we should have seen a rise in violent crime from the 50s to today. But that did not happen.

See, your theory (and I use the term lightly) does not fit the facts. Now, you can do two things. First, you could reconsider your theory and the arguments you made. Second, you can ignore the facts and cling closer to you theory. It is clear you have chosen the second path.

The FACT remains that your theory, based on coarsening culture, cannot explain the fall in violent crime in the 90s. In fact, according to your theory, we should have seen a rise in violent crime from the 50s to today. But that did not happen.

See, your theory (and I use the term lightly) does not fit the facts. Now, you can do two things. First, you could reconsider your theory and the arguments you made. Second, you can ignore the facts and cling closer to you theory. It is clear you have chosen the second path.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here, you relate a higher crime rate to the poverty level and to drugs and seem to have decided that the Clinton era somehow exhibits proof that Bush has corrupted our society. Cause and effect generally have a time lapse involved, it's a generational thing. If you want to use drug use, perhaps the Nancy Reagan "Just say no" campaign that was so ridiculed provided a bit more solution to the problem than the "If it feels good, do it" era you speak of? By the same token, unemployment is down currently to levels lower than that of the period you mention and I don't see that as a factor. If you look at crime rates, the violence has escalated in our society as drugs became more pervasive in our daily lives. Violent crims are seldom comitted by the business class represented by your hated neocons. It seems to follow that though white collar crime might increase due to a lapse in the moral fiber of our business community, following their leaders so to speak, the violence has to be attributed to something else. I say it is due to the coarsening of our society over several decades rather than some sudden onset of circumstances. all the circumstances you blame have always been part of our society. Restraint has become a rare commodity. Our values have changed. This is an inevitable progress and not all bad but when taken as a whole, we may have drifted too far in the direction of tollerance. We can accept that but then we should not overllook it when we lament the results of that change. Maybe, our affluence has created a whole new range of opportunities. Maybe we will just drift to destruction with your class looking for new reasons for the slide and mine believing the reason is clear and we will slide into oblivion blaming each other? I believe a society that has the capacity to say no has a better chance of remaining cohesive and safe than one that says WTF.

I am, by the way, certain of my conclusions, it is not a theory. You may not have noticed so I feel compelled to point that out. :)

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here, you relate a higher crime rate to the poverty level and to drugs and seem to have decided that the Clinton era somehow exhibits proof that Bush has corrupted our society.

I suggest you go back and reread the thread.

OP said crime up.

Steam said "blame bush".

I pointed out that many of bush's policies can have results that increase crime.

You start babbling about culture being the cause.

I point out that your culture argument fails to explain the drop of violent crime in the 90s.

You babble more about culture. You talk about poverty always being around, but ignore that I am talking about changes in levels of poverty, not poverty itself. You do that more than once, which means you are either being intellectually dishonest (straw maning my argument) or you don't take the time to read what I type, or you can't understand the nuanced difference between "X exists" and "X has gone up".

Oh, and btw, the fact that you bring up "Just Say No" in any other context than to laugh at it shows that you have NOT A SINGLE CLUE what you are talking about. Just say no did diddly.

I suggest you go back and reread the thread.

OP said crime up.

Steam said "blame bush".

I pointed out that many of bush's policies can have results that increase crime.

You start babbling about culture being the cause.

I point out that your culture argument fails to explain the drop of violent crime in the 90s.

You babble more about culture. You talk about poverty always being around, but ignore that I am talking about changes in levels of poverty, not poverty itself. You do that more than once, which means you are either being intellectually dishonest (straw maning my argument) or you don't take the time to read what I type, or you can't understand the nuanced difference between "X exists" and "X has gone up".

Oh, and btw, the fact that you bring up "Just Say No" in any other context than to laugh at it shows that you have NOT A SINGLE CLUE what you are talking about. Just say no did diddly.

Well, even though you are wrong, it's good you are sure of yourself. It's probably all due to global warming anyway.

Spend 1 month in an urban, low performing school. You will see the cause of the increase in violence. It is 100% socio-economic culturaly related. And, you if you want to put a blame on that socio-economic culture, it starts before our current president. Real fast overview of it; the creating a system of dependance. Everyone is responsible for that

If Clinton's habits caused the youth of america to start having oral sex all the time, then this administration's actions and disrespect for the law could have an effect too.

Or perhaps cuts in drug treatment programs and increases in the numbers living in poverty and such might be a more direct link to the current president.

Coupled with the fact that people are less connected due to the internets than ever before... Yes, higher poverty and higher crime rates can correlate to the job the President is doing.

Coupled with the fact that people are less connected due to the internets than ever before... Yes, higher poverty and higher crime rates can correlate to the job the Presidents have done in the 20th century.

Fixed it for you. No charge. Good point about the internet being less connected though. I would also suggest the inverse (at my limited middle-school/high-school level) The amount of on-campus violence caused but what was posted on online (i.e., My Space) is dramaticaly rising. Could it be a case of too much connection, not enough communication?

:confused: Fixed it for you. No charge. Good point about the internet being less connected though. I would also suggest the inverse (at my limited middle-school/high-school level) The amount of on-campus violence caused but what was posted on online (i.e., My Space) is dramaticaly rising. Could it be a case of too much connection, not enough communication?

While I agree poverty is generational, it's also something people teetering on the brink of slip into rather frequently. Higher rates of poverty can and do reflect directly on the sitting President. People with devistating illnesses have been filing bankruptcy at an alarming rate because they can't afford health insurance. More children are going hungry every night due higher rates of poverty. They can't concentrate in school on an empty stomach while Johnny is popping a cap into Paco.

Tax cuts for the wealthy don't necessarily help the working poor. They don't invest so they don't get any benefit from say a cut in the capital gains tax. They don't have an estate so they don't get a benefit when they waive the inheritance tax.

I guess in your world King Jorge isn't responsible for anything bad that happens on his watch? I wish someone could list something good that he has done....