Final General classification

1 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak 89.39.30 (40.784 km/h)
2 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne-Illes Balears 0.57
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile 1.29
4 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 3.13
5 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto 5.08
6 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 7.06
7 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 8.41
8 Christophe Moreau (Fra) AG2R-Prevoyance 9.37
9 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi 12.05
10 Michael Rogers (Aus) T-Mobile 15.07
11 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC 17.46
12 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 19.19
13 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner 19.22
14 Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank 19.46
15 Marcus Fothen (Ger) Gerolsteiner 19.57
16 Pietro Caucchioli (Ita) Crédit Agricole 21.12
17 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) Lampre-Fondital 26.25
18 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 28.33
19 José Azevedo (Por) Discovery Channel 38.08
20 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Lampre-Fondital 43.05


Thoughts?
</pre>

I'm Thinking....

I thought I would go on Yahoo! and see how Floyd’s achievement today ranked according to “Joe Average American”. Well, Tiger got top billing (of course). However, Floyd’s story just beat out a Chimp that can play poker.

Not too bad for 20 stages and 3600 kilometers of work.

Lampre and Rabobank each have 3 riders in the top 20. And each team has one Jersey winner (white and Polka Dot) - pretty impressive!!

I'm stoked for Floyd. All around it makes for a great story. The meltdown and recovery was amazing, especially combined with the bad hip. But for me the coolest part is how he triumphed over his parents and upbringing. His parents told him he would 'burn in hell' if he kept riding his bike, and when that didn't work they made him do chores all day long so that he could only ride his bike late at night.

All the ingredients for a quintessential American hero story are there, but the fact that he kept a positive relationship with his parents shows he really is a good guy.

Congrats!

I'm stoked for Floyd. All around it makes for a great story. The meltdown and recovery was amazing, especially combined with the bad hip. But for me the coolest part is how he triumphed over his parents and upbringing. His parents told him he would 'burn in hell' if he kept riding his bike, and when that didn't work they made him do chores all day long so that he could only ride his bike late at night.
All the ingredients for a quintessential American hero story are there, but the fact that he kept a positive relationship with his parents shows he really is a good guy.

I am glad that Floyd won. I think he worked hard for the win. Stage 17 was incredible! However, you are quoting a reporter's take on Floyd's life. Floyd grew up Mennonite, a Christian denomination that emphasizes strong moral values, and rubber-to-the-road good clean living. His parents wanted to pass on a heritage that they value, and still do. Most conservative Mennonite groups discourage organized competitive sports, so his parents did what they felt was right for their child. Incidentally, most Mennonite kids work at chores and learn dedication and industry from their parents' example. This work ethic is what makes Mennonites appreciated in many communities across this country. How do you think Floyd won? He was quoted as giving credit to his parents for teaching him not to give up and to be patient and work hard! Floyd was a bit of a rebel, as most teenage kids are, and he took up riding to escape the pressures he was facing.

Where do I come up with this stuff? I am 30 years old, same as Floyd, and I am a Mennonite. I came from much the same upbringing as he did, and struggled with the same pressures from my parents. His parents and mine did what they felt was needed out of love. Each of us had to make our own choice, though. He left home, and pursued a racing career. I stayed home and accepted my heritage. I do not regret my choice, and I hope he is happy with his. Both of us will have to live with those choices, but we will likely always ask, "What if I had done it differently?"

Why am I on this forum? Because I enjoy cycling, I like bikes, and I identified with Landis. I hope to see him winning more races.

I am glad that Floyd won. I think he worked hard for the win. Stage 17 was incredible! However, you are quoting a reporter's take on Floyd's life. Floyd grew up Mennonite, a Christian denomination that emphasizes strong moral values, and rubber-to-the-road good clean living. His parents wanted to pass on a heritage that they value, and still do. Most conservative Mennonite groups discourage organized competitive sports, so his parents did what they felt was right for their child. Incidentally, most Mennonite kids work at chores and learn dedication and industry from their parents' example. This work ethic is what makes Mennonites appreciated in many communities across this country. How do you think Floyd won? He was quoted as giving credit to his parents for teaching him not to give up and to be patient and work hard! Floyd was a bit of a rebel, as most teenage kids are, and he took up riding to escape the pressures he was facing.

Where do I come up with this stuff? I am 30 years old, same as Floyd, and I am a Mennonite. I came from much the same upbringing as he did, and struggled with the same pressures from my parents. His parents and mine did what they felt was needed out of love. Each of us had to make our own choice, though. He left home, and pursued a racing career. I stayed home and accepted my heritage. I do not regret my choice, and I hope he is happy with his. Both of us will have to live with those choices, but we will likely always ask, "What if I had done it differently?"

Why am I on this forum? Because I enjoy cycling, I like bikes, and I identified with Landis. I hope to see him winning more races.

Interesting. So is Landis still a Mennonite? I just read his article with Zabriski in Bicycling. I got the idea he was more of an ex-Mennonite than a rebelious Mennonite.

Floyd grew up Mennonite, a Christian denomination that emphasizes strong moral values, and rubber-to-the-road good clean living.

How do you think Floyd won? He was quoted as giving credit to his parents for teaching him not to give up and to be patient and work hard!

Where do I come up with this stuff? I am 30 years old, same as Floyd, and I am a Mennonite.

At Johns Hopkins medical institutions, doctors have been doing genetic research on the Amish and Mennonite communities of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, for many decades. Given the relative insularity of the commutities, certain genetic disorders are more prevalant there than in other places (and some genetic disorders found elsewhere are absent). Although I agree with you that the Mennonite values probably played a big part in Floyd Landis's success, the genetic issues raised by the Hopkins research have made me wonder whether there are some great, undiscovered cycling genes among the Amish and Mennonite communities. Now, given the cultural opposition to competitive sports, we probably will never know. But, it is interesting to think about it.

Insofar as cycling and competition are concerned, are there any bright line do's and don'ts for Mennonites in good standing? For example, I read somewhere that when Landis rode his first mtb race, he wore sweat pants because he was not allowed to wear short pants. Or, are these issues one of individual conscience or choice?

The interplay of religion and sports is something that is not new or unique to a particular group. Sandy Koufax did not pitch in game one of the 1965 World Series, which fell on Yom Kippur. Branch Rickey, the legendary baseball manager, would not attend games on Sunday.

Notice the Yahoo headline: American Floyd Landis...I guess the average reader doesn't know he's from the US.

Thanks for a great few weeks, 'ossum' and very entertaining.

PS. For Phloyd fans, the Landis & Zabriskie interview in Bicycling makes fun reading, especially in light of this tour -- the funnier side of "Dumb and Dumber" -- now looking "smarter than the average bear."

--Yogi Bear

Interesting. So is Landis still a Mennonite? I just read his article with Zabriski in Bicycling. I got the idea he was more of an ex-Mennonite than a rebelious Mennonite.
No he is not a Mennonite anymore. His parents still are. Floyd said something like
"I'm too high strung to be a Mennonite"

Great riding... and THANK YOU for a new tour de france that will surely GO DOWN into History...

Although I agree with you that the Mennonite values probably played a big part in Floyd Landis's success, the genetic issues raised by the Hopkins research have made me wonder whether there are some great, undiscovered cycling genes among the Amish and Mennonite communities. Now, given the cultural opposition to competitive sports, we probably will never know. But, it is interesting to think about it.

That is an interesting angle indeed. Are there untapped pools of talent that have no real knowledge or interest in cycling? Get some of those Tarahumara natives from Mexico who run 80 miles per day at "race pace" on a bicycle...

Floyd is The Man.

The king is dead.....Long live the king!

And I actually seem to like this one.

TF

Interesting. So is Landis still a Mennonite? I just read his article with Zabriski in Bicycling. I got the idea he was more of an ex-Mennonite than a rebelious Mennonite.
Actually the "ex-menno" seems to often follow the "rebellious menno". Not always, but frequently.

I am glad that Floyd won. I think he worked hard for the win. Stage 17 was incredible! However, you are quoting a reporter's take on Floyd's life. Floyd grew up Mennonite, a Christian denomination that emphasizes strong moral values, and rubber-to-the-road good clean living. His parents wanted to pass on a heritage that they value, and still do. Most conservative Mennonite groups discourage organized competitive sports, so his parents did what they felt was right for their child. Incidentally, most Mennonite kids work at chores and learn dedication and industry from their parents' example. This work ethic is what makes Mennonites appreciated in many communities across this country. How do you think Floyd won? He was quoted as giving credit to his parents for teaching him not to give up and to be patient and work hard! Floyd was a bit of a rebel, as most teenage kids are, and he took up riding to escape the pressures he was facing.

Where do I come up with this stuff? I am 30 years old, same as Floyd, and I am a Mennonite. I came from much the same upbringing as he did, and struggled with the same pressures from my parents. His parents and mine did what they felt was needed out of love. Each of us had to make our own choice, though. He left home, and pursued a racing career. I stayed home and accepted my heritage. I do not regret my choice, and I hope he is happy with his. Both of us will have to live with those choices, but we will likely always ask, "What if I had done it differently?"

Why am I on this forum? Because I enjoy cycling, I like bikes, and I identified with Landis. I hope to see him winning more races.

Slowmo,
You are absolutely right I am getting my facts second hand, but not only did the 'hell or bike' choice show up in Daniel Coyle's bookLance Armstrong's War I have also read it in at least one other article. So if my facts are wrong, they are wrong from more then once source.

I honestly respect your religion and the choice you made and continue to live. I personally am not religious though I have read the entire Bible, Qu'ran, and other religious works. I am very lucky in that I was raised in a Christian home but my parent's allowed me to be empirical about religion. I definitely was never going to devote my life to something just because my parents said so, without doing a bunch or reading, exposing myself to other religions, and generally making an informed choice. In this way I identify very much with Floyd, because he didn't take his 'destiny' at face value, but rather through experience found his own path in life.

Roberto Benigni said something to the extent of 'the greatest gift my parent's ever gave me was poverty." Lance overcame cancer to win the Tour 7 times. For me my greatest experience was when I almost died in a car accident when I was 16 years old going to school abroad. There is absolutely no doubt that tough situations make people stronger and they are often a component in great individuals. I totally agree with you that his experience in growing up had a ton, if not everything, to do with his win. However, I don't think that cancer, poverty, and car accidents are necessarily good things.

There are two issues I have with his parents: one, is they tried to scare the crap out of him to keep him in line, and two, the chores were not standard variety even for his family, they were absolutely stacked to specifically keep him off of his bike (again coming from two writers).

One thing we probably both agree on is the current version of the 'American Dream' could use some revision (big meals, houses, portions, vehicles; declining work ethic; etc.). My version of how things should change may be a bit different then yours, but I think more emphasis on family/ relationships, hard work, and moderation in consumption are fairly universal. I try to live this way, but it sounds like your religion and values may give you a better road map then I could ever provide for myself. This, of course, is a great thing.

I totally agree that Floyd's parents were trying guide him the best they could. However, I think parents need not lie to or humiliate their kids. Humiliation is less of a factor here, but they definitely used fear, as religion has for centuries. IMO, what you are teaching is a fallacy if you HAVE to use fear, and often but NOT always lies, to get your message across. The promise of a more fulfilling life and afterlife should have been enough to sell such a worthy cause. I know the fear appeal is very traditional and Floyd's parents may have even believed it, but it is my opinion that it is a horrible thing to do to a kid.

I know it is hard to find decent social statistics on things like drug use, premarital sex, etc. because the sides are so polarized. However, from small sample trials to large data sets among societies, lying or nvoking fear to motivate produces bad results. I could give a number of examples to show this, but I won't bore everyone.

I was not trying to knock anyone's religion, just the tactics his parent's used. And I still think that he is a good guy because he kept a relationship with them, many people would not have. I have the same respect for his parent's for not rejecting him after his choice.

I would like to hear your further thoughts if you have any. GO FLOYD!!

At Johns Hopkins medical institutions, doctors have been doing genetic research on the Amish and Mennonite communities of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, for many decades. Given the relative insularity of the commutities, certain genetic disorders are more prevalant there than in other places (and some genetic disorders found elsewhere are absent). Although I agree with you that the Mennonite values probably played a big part in Floyd Landis's success, the genetic issues raised by the Hopkins research have made me wonder whether there are some great, undiscovered cycling genes among the Amish and Mennonite communities. Now, given the cultural opposition to competitive sports, we probably will never know. But, it is interesting to think about it.

Insofar as cycling and competition are concerned, are there any bright line do's and don'ts for Mennonites in good standing? For example, I read somewhere that when Landis rode his first mtb race, he wore sweat pants because he was not allowed to wear short pants. Or, are these issues one of individual conscience or choice?

The interplay of religion and sports is something that is not new or unique to a particular group. Sandy Koufax did not pitch in game one of the 1965 World Series, which fell on Yom Kippur. Branch Rickey, the legendary baseball manager, would not attend games on Sunday.

The insular nature of the Mennonite / Amish communities in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and many other states is the result of an attempt to limit the influence of secular values on those of the aforementioned faith. The communities became even more insular as society moved farther away from the Biblical concepts the Mennonites / Amish espoused. The insular lifestyle has indeed produced some genetic anomalies, many of them not good. It's even a joke among other Mennonites not caught in the situation. My dad was a first generation Mennonite-- he chose to become one. I was raised that way, and I chose it as well. Many Mennonites come from generations of Mennonites. Floyd did. He grew up in Landis Valley, for crying out loud!:p My mom did as well. Her religious heritage goes WAY back.

As far as bright line do's and don't's, sometimes there are, sometimes there aren't. There are more brands of Mennonites than you can imagine. These often are the result of differences of opinion regarding the interpretation of Scriptural directives. Sometimes an issue is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, but we (I) believe that principles to approach that issue are addressed in the Scriptures. One of the principles we espouse is that of being separate from and nonconformed to society in general. The degree to which we live by that principle is often the deciding factor in what group of Mennonites one may belong to. I wear biking bibs, but only under warmup pants or old cotton slacks. It is inconvenient, (and HOT--which is why I don't ride much in the summer in the south), but modesty and nonconformity and my conscience dictate this. Some people would say, "What's the big deal?", but unless you were taught as I was, you wouldn't understand. Besides, I'm fat! Who wants to see that in spandex?:rolleyes:

I should emphasize that these choices should be personal choice. No one told me to wear pants over my cycling bibs. However, our church has a written agreement that includes guidelines regarding appropriate clothing. Cycle shorts don't make the list! If I went against that agreement, then I am opening myself up for a visit by another church member or the minister. My conscience guides my decision, but were I not so inclined, I could do as I wished, but would eventually be excluded from membership in my congregation. Not a big deal to someone itching to get out of a lifestyle one views as repressive, but a huge deal to someone who treasures that lifestyle. And it affects the family as well. Floyd's family supports his racing, but only because he has done so without losing the code of ethics taught to him at an early age. When he made the choice to race, they could only see a rebellious son determined to reject everything they held precious. Thus their initial disapproval. I would venture a guess that both Floyd and his family had to come to some common ground, some compromise or understanding for there to be reconciliation.

I should leave this as a disclaimer: I do not know Floyd, or his family. All this is based on my experience and that of friends and family. Floyd's lifestyle, excluding his cycling career, is not all that uncommon among former Mennonites. Mennonites have quite the web of contacts across the world, and we often know people who know people, etc, ad infinitum. I hope to meet Floyd some day, and maybe even ask some of my questions regarding his departure from the Mennonites. For now, I'd settle for a signed podium cap, preferably the one he wore after stage 17!:D

chapeau floyd! Never have I been happy for a rider winning any race in my 6 years of following pro cycling.

Boardmill, I agree with you on this subject. As I have told many people who express admiration for the Mennonites, we are far from perfect. Due to our social structure, we have tendencies to other problems.

There are two issues I have with his parents: one, is they tried to scare the crap out of him to keep him in line, and two, the chores were not standard variety even for his family, they were absolutely stacked to specifically keep him off of his bike (again coming from two writers).
First, you must understand that to us, Hell is real. It is the ultimate destination for one who rejects God. That is our position. This then would be why Floyd's parents felt the way they did. No one would wish that on their child. However, sometimes parents, in their desire to protect their children from themselves, don't always handle it well. I have learned that if I consider my values valid and valuable and true, then I must find some way to show that truth to my children. I must live it, and provide legitimate reasons for accepting that truth. Not just "Because I say so" or "Because the church says so". Without having been there to witness Floyd's growing up, and his parents' attempt to raise him as a Mennonite, I would have recommended finding a way to take part in his cycling interests without compromising my convictions, thus developing a relationship and easing the conflict. Finding work for a rebellious child is often the efforts of a parent who is desperately trying to distract their child from activities they consider harmful. Once again, I point you to our stand on rejecting God. Parents sometimes fail to realize that while a child rejects his parents' lifestyle, he may not necessarily be rejecting God. But it is hard to see that when you are facing it. The Bible is very clear about children obeying their parents (see Ephesians) but eventually the child will be free to make their own decision.

I realize that you feel fear is an unhealthy influence. In certain aspects, you are correct. I would never allow my child to watch a horror movie. That is unhealthy, IMO. However, there can be a healthy fear. For instance: I live on a dairy farm. I have instilled a mild fear of going in the pasture in my children, due to the presence of unpredictable dairy cows. As they grow older, they will realize the danger themselves, and can make the decision to stay out on their own. They can also decide to go into the pasture with the understanding that there may be unpleasant consequences for that choice, ie-chased by a mad mama cow. It is a real danger, so the fear is healthy. It doesn't cause you to freeze in panic, but to be cautious. Since I view Hell as a real place, I want my children to have a healthy fear of anything that would take them there. This is why I try to teach them the difference between right and wrong and how to determine in any situation which is which.

Whoa! Major rabbit trail and thread hijacking! This was not my intention:( . This thread was for congratulating Floyd on his victory. If anyone else would like to discuss any of the issues brought up regarding Mennonites or any of the other stuff, please PM me.

Yeah good on Floyd. It was good to see him win. His big proud smile as he spoke in interviews showed how good this was for him.

A nice change.

Well done to Cadel and Mick Rogers.

Floyd da man!!! :23:


And the reaction of his daughter Ryan when he hugged her after today's finish was priceless: "eeewwww! you're all sweaty!" :D

Who the hell is Marzio Bruseghin, and why didn't I ever see him on TV during the Tour? I follow racing year round, and I know everyone in the top 20 except him.

To prolong the hijack just a bit more - slomo1, this is all very interesting and facinating to me. Thank you for sharing with us.

To prolong the hijack just a bit more - slomo1, this is all very interesting and facinating to me. Thank you for sharing with us.
I agree. Really good reading, very thoughtful writing. Thanks very much.

I like Floyd. I hope he does give you the cap from Morzine! :)

To prolong the hijack just a bit more - slomo1, this is all very interesting and facinating to me. Thank you for sharing with us.

Snap, thanks for that, I totally agree that it was fascinating. I really like hearing different perspectives and it is ALWAYS nice when people can talk in a civil/ respectful manner about their religion, beliefs, and life choices no matter how different they are from someone else's. His posts were interesting, articulate, and tactful.

We all know how important cancer was to Lance, most of us know the significance of Greg LeMond getting shot, but few of us understand Floyd's upbringing. By no means am I saying it is a bad thing, just a defining thing that I now understand better.

Who the hell is Marzio Bruseghin, and why didn't I ever see him on TV during the Tour? I follow racing year round, and I know everyone in the top 20 except him.
Are you joking or serious, mohair? I can't quite tell.

He was pretty evident in the Giro (maybe you didn't watch on RAI?) and in previous years at Fassa. He has only won one race in 9 years (this year's Italian Nat. TT) but has always been a good domestique.

He's from the Veneto and his nicknames are "Bruse" (obvious) and "L'Asino" (donkey) because he raises them. A very humble, funny, good-natured guy.

Thanks for a great few weeks, 'ossum' and very entertaining.

PS. For Phloyd fans, the Landis & Zabriskie interview in Bicycling makes fun reading, especially in light of this tour -- the funnier side of "Dumb and Dumber" -- now looking "smarter than the average bear."

--Yogi Bear

That article made me a fan of both of them. It's the funniest article I've read in a while!

I am serious. I don't think I've ever seen this guy race. I totally missed the Giro this year because I don't get RAI and I refused to support OLN's dumb recaps.

Tuff choice for Floyd. Go to H@ll or win the Tour.

Tuff choice for Floyd. Go to H@ll or win the Tour.

The irony is you pretty much have to go to hell to win the tour. I'm sure the real hell is worse, if there is one, but we are talking about so much pain and suffering, day after day, year after year, just in terms of training.

Final General classification

1 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak 89.39.30 (40.784 km/h)

Thoughts?


</PRE>

Well done Floyd!

The way he won reminds me of my other favorite sports story- the 2004 Red Sox coming back from three games to none to beat the Yankees in the ALCS, and summarily sweeping the Cardinals to win the World Series. Similar elements of falling behind to the point of all-but-certain elimination, a miraculous comeback no one dared hope for, and the one final hurdle to achieve ultimate victory. And of course the element of the perpetual underachiever (T-Mobile/A-Rod) getting pushed out of the way in the process!

This Tour started out from the onset(and one day prior) with a large white elephant sitting in the room. Fortunately in the end it was all about the race and the 130+ riders that made it to Paris. Floyd did one helluva job!

Peace

I have to say that the greatest single moment in the Tour was when Floyd caught up with the breakaway in Stage 17 and passed every single one of them like it was just no big thing. I like to think they were all caught completely by surprise and were like "Holy #%@$! That's Landis passing us!" ...but I know in the real world they probably heard him coming from a mile away (via radio from their team cars). Then he went on to drop the T-Mobile rider (can't remember who that was...?). See you at the finish, bro!

But anyway, that was amazing to watch. He certainly stomped some serious rear end right there.

You da man

Maybe this shouldn't be a sticky anymore.

Maybe this shouldn't be a sticky anymore.


Yeah, STICK IT SOMEWHERE ELSE.
:aureola: