Somewhat in keeping with recent discussions, Chomsky et al. I love Gunter Grass' books and his position as a voice for democracy in post-War Germany, so this was somewhat startling to read, especially as he is of the last generation to still have direct connections with Nazi Germany.

What happens when a figurehead such as this is discovered to have a somewhat different past than what was revealed?
Do you think artists should be bound to publicly admit all their failings (and possibly life events which formed their work), especially if their work is political and the failings are as well?
Is the vilification of something a 17-year old did appropriate when the person is now old?
Does having new knowledge of an artist's life affect your reading of their body of work?

Some of the facts in this article are ambiguous, to me. Nonetheless, I found the information and the stridency of opinions interesting.

Pasted here in full so you do not have to subscribe to the L A Times.

A Legend of Words Is Toppled by His Own
By Jeffrey Fleishman, Times Staff Writer
August 24, 2006

BERLIN — This is the true-life fable of a hero tumbling from a moral perch of his own invention, undone by a shame kept secret for a lifetime.

The scenarios and plot twists in the disturbing saga of Germany's most famous novelist are many: Was it a publicity stunt by a 78-year-old author whose voice may have lost its resonance and vitality? Was it a preemptive move to divulge what biographers might have discovered after his death? Was it the earnest exploration to put life and art in perspective?


Gunter Grass' revelation that he marched in Adolf Hitler's SS in the final months of World War II has sent Germany's past once again trickling uncomfortably into the present. His disclosure of serving in the military branch that helped organize the Holocaust has startled his admirers and weakened his stature, often articulated in bursts of self-righteousness, as the conscience of a nation.

Grass was 17 in late 1944 when he was drafted into a Waffen SS tank division. Russian troops were pushing in from the east and the nation was at the brink of defeat. Boys and young men were hurried into battle, and most Germans today empathize with the author's brief military career. The sin for many is that Grass kept it a secret for decades, even as his novels and political essays lectured the country to reconcile its past.

The tempest around Grass comes as Germans are reexamining the war to understand how they were sometimes victims of Hitler and the Allies. Such revisionism is sensitive terrain, but also an indication that the lenses of guilt and atonement are no longer enough to assess the past.

Critics, politicians and readers are debating Grass' motivations, and why in his new autobiography, "While Peeling the Onion," the writer decided to rouse his ghosts at the possible expense of the moral authority he gained with novels such as "The Tin Drum" and "Dog Years."

"He's an old man," said Burkhard Spinnen, a critic and writer. "He's always dealt with reality and fate. For more than 50 years he's dealt with German history, and now he has to deal with his own history, which is coming to an end. You don't want to take something into your grave that cannot stand."

Stephan Speicher, a senior cultural writer at Berliner Zeitung, said:

"We all have little lies in our lives that we don't correct. They go on from day to day and from year to year. I think it's part of Grass' clearing his conscience. There's a little bit of laughing at him now. Most writers say he should have spoken out earlier. But let's not be too severe."

In an interview in the German media, Grass said he had volunteered for submarine duty but was pressed into the Waffen SS. American troops took him as a prisoner of war in April 1945, when Grass signed a document stating that he was in Hitler's elite corps.

Grass, who has always maintained that he knew nothing of the Holocaust until after the war, said he kept this part of his past "buried within myself. I can't exactly identify the reasons." He added that "in the end, it simply had to come out."

With his walrus mustache and droopy yet luminous eyes, Grass has been endlessly caricatured in the German media since his disclosure. In an allusion to "The Tin Drum," he is pictured in Der Spiegel marching and drumming a golden Nazi helmet, under the caption "The late confession of the moral apostle."

Some wanted to strip Grass of his 1999 Nobel Prize for Literature. The Central Council of Jews in Germany has condemned Grass' revelation. Charlotte Knobloch, its president, has said that the admission mars the image of a man known as an "exacting moral watchdog."

Sales for the 479-page "While Peeling the Onion" have been tremendous. The first run of 150,000 sold out in a week, and the publisher, Steidl, is shipping 100,000 more copies to bookstores next week. Some critics sense a shrewd marketing gimmick to save an autobiography of dense prose from slipping into the bargain bins.

"The worst impact of this whole thing is that he has written a very feeble book," said Gregor Dotzauer, literary critic for Der Tagesspiegel. "I think it was a public relations stunt…. It will be one of the very last scandals of its kind, though. All these scandals revolve around those 12 years of German history, and those people who lived through it are dying."

Grass had been a moralizer for a country that veered through guilt and shame while searching for its identity in the postwar years. He joined the left-leaning Social Democrats and condemned former Nazis holding government posts. His attacks on political opponents came at rallies, where he appeared with his ego intact and his pipe glowing.

There were times when he could have revealed the deeds of his youth. In 1969, Grass was giving a reading in Stuttgart when a former SS officer stood up and committed suicide by swallowing cyanide, saying, "And, now, I'd like to salute my comrades from the SS."

Grass was also silent on his past in 1985 when he criticized Chancellor Helmut Kohl and President Reagan for visiting a cemetery in Bitburg that held the graves of Waffen SS soldiers.

In his autobiography, Grass peels back 60 years to explain himself: "What I had accepted with the foolish pride of my youth was the very same thing I wanted to conceal from myself with a delayed sense of shame after the war. But the burden remained, and no one could make it lighter….

"I did know I was part of a system that had planned, organized and carried out the destruction of millions of people. Even if one could talk me out of being actively implicated, remnants of the share of blame — all too easily called complicity — have remained until today."

The passage is thoroughly German, encompassing the emotional complexities of those caught up in Hitler's war machine. Many critics say it comes too late, when a younger generation is less inclined to revisit the crimes of its grandfathers. For Grass, critics say, the literature he wrote decades ago will stand, but the facade of the scolding teacher is badly cracked.

"We have two great hobbies in Germany: The first one is to manufacture heroes, and the other part is to destroy those same heroes," said Spinnen, who said Grass was being judged unfairly. "Grass was an opinion leader of his time, and he's being destroyed by his own instruments."

*

(INFOBOX BELOW)

Gunter Grass

Born Oct. 16, 1927, in Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland).

Served in the German military during World War II; recently acknowledged being a member of Adolf Hitler's Waffen SS.

Won acclaim for his first novel, "The Tin Drum," published in 1959 and made into a 1979 film that won the Academy Award for Best Foreign Language Film.

Long active with the left-leaning Social Democratic Party.

Awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in 1999. In announcing the prize, the Swedish Academy said, "When Gunter Grass published 'The Tin Drum' in 1959, it was as if German literature had been granted a new beginning after decades of linguistic and moral destruction."

I'm all for forgiving Gunter Grass his sins. Whether or not he should have gone public earlier, he's been atoning for a good sixty years. Eventually, hatchets must be buried. Otherwise we will never know peace.

I'm all for forgiving Gunter Grass his sins. Whether or not he should have gone public earlier, he's been atoning for a good sixty years. Eventually, hatchets must be buried. Otherwise we will never know peace.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm not familiar with his work but it sure does sound like the guy walked the walk. If so, let him be.

I'm all for forgiving Gunter Grass his sins. Whether or not he should have gone public earlier, he's been atoning for a good sixty years. Eventually, hatchets must be buried. Otherwise we will never know peace.
Myself as well. He is an icon and really provided a critical and crucial voice during the Reconstruction.

I'm hoping Fredke sees this and replies; I'll be interested in his opinion.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm not familiar with his work but it sure does sound like the guy walked the walk. If so, let him be.
He was one of the major voices for the German left, post-War and an incredible writer. I find the stridency of some of the criticism against him very strange.

You should read "The Tin Drum", Ken. "The Flounder" and "From the Diary of a Snail" are good as well.

Some interesting info regarding his war-time activities and post-declaration criticism and support is on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass).

He was one of the major voices for the German left, post-War and an incredible writer. I find the stridency of some of the criticism against him very strange.

You should read "The Tin Drum", Ken. "The Flounder" and "From the Diary of a Snail" are good as well.

Some interesting info regarding his war-time activities and post-declaration criticism and support is on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass).

I will put him on the list. :)

I could understand the contempt, I guess, if he's seen (by some) as just another war criminal who lied and escaped punishment for his crimes by leading and apparent life of atonement. I find that unlikely though for such a public persona.

He was one of the major voices for the German left, post-War and an incredible writer. I find the stridency of some of the criticism against him very strange.

You should read "The Tin Drum", Ken. "The Flounder" and "From the Diary of a Snail" are good as well.

Some interesting info regarding his war-time activities and post-declaration criticism and support is on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass).

i don't know what to say.. should he be forgiven? yes. should germany be forgiven for turning genocide and genetics into a culture? no.
the reconstruction of germany is slightly intimidating.. the nazi seed was not destroyed.
if grass confession is a political tool, then we should be wary.. if it's personal, it could be a lesson in human mistake.
ezra pound, leni riefensthall and the german philosopher (i forgot his name, hannah arendt's teacher) were caught by the nazi ideology and paid dearly.

i don't know what to say.. should he be forgiven? yes. should germany be forgiven for turning genocide and genetics into a culture? no.
the reconstruction of germany is slightly intimidating.. the nazi seed was not destroyed.
if grass confession is a political tool, then we should be wary.. if it's personal, it could be a lesson in human mistake.
ezra pound, leni riefensthall and the german philosopher (i forgot his name, hannah arendt's teacher) were caught by the nazi ideology and paid dearly.

Bigotry and prejudice will exist as long as there are borders, religions and races. We're all just a bunch of Sneetches.

I will put him on the list. :)


I could understand the contempt, I guess, if he's seen (by some) as just another war criminal who lied and escaped punishment for his crimes by leading and apparent life of atonement. I find that unlikely though for such a public persona.
Yes, try "The Tin Drum".

War criminal? No, Ken, read the Wiki link: he was 17, last months of WWII, enlisted in subs division in order to leave home, conscripted into the SS, served in a tank brigade, claimed no knowledge of concentration camps, quite possibly was never near one, captured as an American POW. I don't think any of that qualifies as war criminal status. Obviously his experiences affected his writing and politics, but the vilification of him in some corners of the German (and worldwide) press seems a ludicrous attempt at hand-washing, more than anything else.

Bigotry and prejudice will exist as long as there are borders, religions and races. We're all just a bunch of Sneetches.

I think the religions and races matter slightly less but as long as borders or lines are drawn to ensure economic enclaves there is no equality and bortherhood of man. I often dream about a world without borders where all the worlds bounty is for all the world, and there is plenty, but how to start such a transparency of humanity? race and religions can mix easy if they have similar economic standing and eventually like all good things they marry, mix and become as one. Sure there is still identity but there is less emphasis on it ... like saying your brunnette and Im blonde ... and an appreciation of the good of such things rather than the negative.


peace

i don't know what to say.. should he be forgiven? yes. should germany be forgiven for turning genocide and genetics into a culture? no.
the reconstruction of germany is slightly intimidating.. the nazi seed was not destroyed.
if grass confession is a political tool, then we should be wary.. if it's personal, it could be a lesson in human mistake.
ezra pound, leni riefensthall and the german philosopher (i forgot his name, hannah arendt's teacher) were caught by the nazi ideology and paid dearly.
I'm not suggesting Germany be forgiven for the Holocaust. I think Grass is in fact evidence of acute and useful post-War self-awareness and self-criticism. He was the intellectual proponent of this movement. I do not find him remotely responsible either for SS actions or later Baader-Meinhof/skinhead/isolationist actions. I tend to think it is a personal confession, perhaps in fact aimed at reawakening memory against a (not the only) current situation in Germany, the one to which you allude.

These are two separate discussions. From what I experienced of the re-unification on only many work trips there and not as a German-speaker, yes there are some scary issues: the burning of Turks in their businesses or cars, a severe and horrendous beating of East Germans by a West German skinhead gang that I witnessed at the Berlin Zoo. But I also saw a lot of acknowledgment, openness and forward-thinking. But, like I said, these are two separate discussions and I hope this thread doesn't turn into a pro- or contra-Germany thread.

Re: Arendt, I think you mean Martin Heidegger?

I'm not suggesting Germany be forgiven for the Holocaust. I think Grass is in fact evidence of acute and useful post-War self-awareness and self-criticism. He was the intellectual proponent of this movement. I do not find him remotely responsible either for SS actions or later Baader-Meinhof/skinhead/isolationist actions. I tend to think it is a personal confession, perhaps in fact aimed at reawakening memory against a, not the only, current situation in Germany.

These are two separate discussions. From what I experienced of the re-unification on only many work trips there and not as a German-speaker, yes there are some scary issues: the burning of Turks in their businesses or cars, a severe and horrendous beating of East Germans by a West German skinhead gang that I witnessed at the Berlin Zoo. But I also saw a lot of acknowledgment, openness and forward-thinking. But, like I said, these are two separate discussions and I hope this thread doesn't turn into a pro- or contra-Germany thread.

Re: Arendt, I think you mean Martin Heidegger?

yes.. heidegger. thanks. i don't fear the irrational outburts of racism.. it was racism turned into a rational culture and society which became the worst nightmare in hystory.
it's that rationality which created a society who despised compassion and spirituality that must be feared. even heidegger condoned nazism.
i don't think it's the case w/grass. he is man who confessed being held in the nightmare for a while. it's an advise that it doesn't repeat again. i wouldn't wan to be in his shoes though.. i could not sleep at night.

Bigotry and prejudice will exist as long as there are borders, religions and races. We're all just a bunch of Sneetches.
This seems like it is veering OT, if you really mean it. I think bigotry and prejudice exist even in the absence of borders, religions and races. Look at the US, plenty of same-race, same-religion, sans-borders bigotry and prejudice. It's a human condition that is exploited for power whenever the opportunity presents itself. To think otherwise is starry-eyed dreaming. I.E. see the first post quoting yours.

What all this has to do with Grass, etc. is a little unclear to me, though.

yes.. heidegger. thanks. i don't fear the irrational outburts of racism.. it was racism turned into a rational culture and society which became the worst nightmare in hystory.
it's that rationality which created a society who despised compassion and spirituality that must be feared. even heidegger condoned nazism.
i don't think it's the case w/grass. he is man who confessed being held in the nightmare for a while. it's an advise that it doesn't repeat again. i wouldn't wan to be in his shoes though.. i could not sleep at night.
That's what I think, the last part.
He is being condemned now for releasing this information "too late" and to "promote sales"...it could very well be, instead, that he sees the revival of a potentially dangerous right wing in Germany and has admitted this now in order to again throw light on the tragedy those earlier right-wing actions resulted in. Tragedy is too small a word.

Bigotry and prejudice will exist as long as there are borders, religions and races. We're all just a bunch of Sneetches.

in germany, bigotry was turned into culture, science and politics of the most developed society of it's time. despise for any other race than arians was glorified. religion was mocked. spirituality was spit upon.
it was organized and intelectually justified by philosophers. it was not hatred: it was scientific , cold organized genocide.

i don't fear the irrational outburts of racism.. it was racism turned into a rational culture and society which became the worst nightmare in hystory.
it's that rationality which created a society who despised compassion and spirituality that must be feared.

part of it just turned into the banality of evil. freakin' German automoton paper pushers blind and dumb to what they were doing. so very, very sad.

I don't believe every German, nor every german soldier of the time to be a full blown Nazi. I think some joined services where they would either follow their civilian interests
(say Jet, Rocket or Glider design) some joined groups that they thought would keep them out of Russia, I'm sure there was a vast area on a continuum just as I know not every American Military person right now is a Bush backer, I have personal friends who serve and think the boy is a grade 1 tool.

part of it just turned into the banality of evil. freakin' German automoton paper pushers blind and dumb to what they were doing. so very, very sad.

I don't believe every German, nor every german soldier of the time to be a full blown Nazi. I think some joined services where they would either follow their civilian interests
(say Jet, Rocket or Glider design) some joined groups that they thought would keep them out of Russia, I'm sure there was a vast area on a continuum just as I know not every American Military person right now is a Bush backer, I have personal friends who serve and think the boy is a grade 1 tool.

german soldier= werchmatt. waffen ss was another matter= nazi elite troops.. black uniform. skull and bones. they took care of concentration camps. very different. they didn't serve germany but the nazi program.
grass was SS....

german soldier= werchmatt. waffen ss was another matter= nazi elite troops.. black uniform. skull and bones. they took care of concentration camps. very different. they didn't serve germany but the nazi program.
grass was SS....
Yes, but Grass did not volunteer for the SS; he was conscripted into it for a few months (last months) of the war.

"Grass attended the Danzig Gymnasium Conradinum. He volunteered for submarine service with the Kriegsmarine "to get out of the confinement he felt as a teenager in his parent's house", [3] and was drafted into the Reichsarbeitsdienst (1942) and in November 1944 into the Waffen-SS. Grass saw combat with the 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg from February 1945 until he was wounded on April 20th 1945 and sent afterwards to an American POW camp."

Here are some opinion letters in reaction to the LA Times article I posted above.
The last one, by a woman his age and a fellow German, is interesting.

Draft wasn't a matter of choice for Grass
August 28, 2006


Re "A Legend of Words Is Toppled by His Own," Aug. 24

The reason Gunter Grass kept his military service in World War II quiet is to avoid exactly the reaction in The Times' story. Grass was a 17-year-old kid in 1944 and was drafted into the Waffen SS of the German army. Anyone who has served in the military should have some idea about how little is communicated to an entry-level private in the army. Grass did what mostly all of us draftees in the world did at that time (or any other time) regardless of nationality — we went into the military and served our countries, period.

TOM REINBERGER
Glendora

• --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am bewildered by the brouhaha over the discovery that Grass was drafted into the Waffen SS as a 17-year-old toward the end of World War II. So was I — a female teenager who got drafted into the German air force about the same time, similar age. Let me assure you, neither of us had any choice in that matter. Does that make us war criminals?

Grass wanted to be a submariner. Given a choice, I would have far preferred to hit the boards as an entertainer with the equivalent of the German USO. But neither of us had a choice. So give the guy a break!

I got a break in the final confusion at the end of the war and lived to become a war bride, raised two great children, and I watch today's political scene in this country with a sense of déjà vu.

I am sure neither of us knew of the horrors committed by our regime of those days, for this was carefully covered up until the truth spewed out after the war, horrifying decent Germans as much as the rest of the world. I can only hope that U.S. citizens recognize some of the parallels between the government controls put on their lives today compared to those imposed on German citizens half a century ago.

RUTH WEDDLE
West Hills

in germany, bigotry was turned into culture, science and politics of the most developed society of it's time. despise for any other race than arians was glorified. religion was mocked. spirituality was spit upon.
it was organized and intelectually justified by philosophers. it was not hatred: it was scientific , cold organized genocide.

It wasn't just Germany...not in the least. There were trains running from many parts of Europe into Poland for final solution.

I think you misunderstand...the levels of what was going on in places like Germany (and France and to some extent Italy, Romania, to the losers of Franco in Spain...where so many were shot against a stone wall, there is a hollow area from the bullets chipping away into the stone).

It was hatred...coldness does not allow for the final solution, it can carry out...aided by myopic hate, but it does not act alone. Science (gobineau and other philosophers) was not science, but was fed by hate and aided in a propagandized structure to create willing exectutioners.

If you get a chance, with your heritage although he has many detractors...I would suggest Zeev Sternhell. He has written extensively on the Nazi/Jew relationship...his pages turn easier in French, but he Ni Droit Ni Gauche is translated into English as are some of his lesser known works. You might like him...he sees everyone as at least a protofascist.

Yes, but Grass did not volunteer for the SS; he was conscripted into it for a few months (last months) of the war.

"Grass attended the Danzig Gymnasium Conradinum. He volunteered for submarine service with the Kriegsmarine "to get out of the confinement he felt as a teenager in his parent's house", [3] and was drafted into the Reichsarbeitsdienst (1942) and in November 1944 into the Waffen-SS. Grass saw combat with the 10th SS Panzer Division Frundsberg from February 1945 until he was wounded on April 20th 1945 and sent afterwards to an American POW camp."

Here are some opinion letters in reaction to the LA Times article I posted above.
The last one, by a woman his age and a fellow German, is interesting.

Draft wasn't a matter of choice for Grass
August 28, 2006


Re "A Legend of Words Is Toppled by His Own," Aug. 24

The reason Gunter Grass kept his military service in World War II quiet is to avoid exactly the reaction in The Times' story. Grass was a 17-year-old kid in 1944 and was drafted into the Waffen SS of the German army. Anyone who has served in the military should have some idea about how little is communicated to an entry-level private in the army. Grass did what mostly all of us draftees in the world did at that time (or any other time) regardless of nationality — we went into the military and served our countries, period.

TOM REINBERGER
Glendora

• --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am bewildered by the brouhaha over the discovery that Grass was drafted into the Waffen SS as a 17-year-old toward the end of World War II. So was I — a female teenager who got drafted into the German air force about the same time, similar age. Let me assure you, neither of us had any choice in that matter. Does that make us war criminals?

Grass wanted to be a submariner. Given a choice, I would have far preferred to hit the boards as an entertainer with the equivalent of the German USO. But neither of us had a choice. So give the guy a break!

I got a break in the final confusion at the end of the war and lived to become a war bride, raised two great children, and I watch today's political scene in this country with a sense of déjà vu.

I am sure neither of us knew of the horrors committed by our regime of those days, for this was carefully covered up until the truth spewed out after the war, horrifying decent Germans as much as the rest of the world. I can only hope that U.S. citizens recognize some of the parallels between the government controls put on their lives today compared to those imposed on German citizens half a century ago.

RUTH WEDDLE
West Hills

i know.. atp mentioned a german soldier. there was a big difference in germany.
grass story is one of many of people trapped in bad moments of history. he was drafted in the horrible SS. meanwhile kids were taken to camps and burned. kids who just wanted to play soccer, girls who wanted to meet boys.. they were starved to death then killed in gas chambers. it's not grass fault.. whose fault was it?

It wasn't just Germany...not in the least. There were trains running from many parts of Europe into Poland for final solution.

I think you misunderstand...the levels of what was going on in places like Germany (and France and to some extent Italy, Romania, to the losers of Franco in Spain...where so many were shot against a stone wall, there is a hollow area from the bullets chipping away into the stone).

It was hatred...coldness does not allow for the final solution, it can carry out...aided by myopic hate, but it does not act alone. Science (gobineau and other philosophers) was not science, but was fed by hate and aided in a propagandized structure to create willing exectutioners.

If you get a chance, with your heritage although he has many detractors...I would suggest Zeev Sternhell. He has written extensively on the Nazi/Jew relationship...his pages turn easier in French, but he Ni Droit Ni Gauche is translated into English as are some of his lesser known works. You might like him...he sees everyone as at least a protofascist.


i know.. the so called colaborationists in france and eastern europe were even more dutifull than the germans in filling trains w/ jewish families.
what i tried to describe was a rationalization of hatred. a logic of genocide. a culture made to prove genetical superiority. an offical despise of compassion and love of your fellow human being. a culture.. this was unprecedent and took place in the one of the most advanced societies of it's time; a nation w/ the highest levels of technology and most of all.. the most obedient and organized people of the western world.
the nazi regime showed us how important it is to disobey, to protest, to be an individual, to praise the individual and to NOT be patriotic when it's necessary.

Myself as well. He is an icon and really provided a critical and crucial voice during the Reconstruction.

I'm hoping Fredke sees this and replies; I'll be interested in his opinion.


not familiar with Gunter, but I will certainly put him on my reading list. Sounds like an interesting man.

That's the problem with sitting on the secret for so many years. He then gets to tell the version of events that seems the least ominous. Given the secrecy of 60 years, why should we assume that the "conscripted into the SS" at the "tale end of the war" and "didn't know anything" story?

It may or may not be true, and he waited long enough that probably anyone who could repudiate his story is dead. If he were telling the story 30 years ago, I might be more compelled to simply assume the truth of his version of events.

I think it is a tough one.

That's the problem with sitting on the secret for so many years. He then gets to tell the version of events that seems the least ominous. Given the secrecy of 60 years, why should we assume that the "conscripted into the SS" at the "tale end of the war" and "didn't know anything" story?

It may or may not be true, and he waited long enough that probably anyone who could repudiate his story is dead. If he were telling the story 30 years ago, I might be more compelled to simply assume the truth of his version of events.

I think it is a tough one.

If he was put into the military (SS or otherwise) in 1944 at the age of 17...he was definately a conscript. The war had turned reaaaaallly sour by then. People were beginning to wake up and a primary reason still going with the program was to try to stave off the Soviet Army that was driving several kilometers a day toward Berlin.

as waffen SS made up some elite corps as well. (SS Panzer divisions for example). So even though SS Troops were usually also responsible for battlefield horrors (shooting of prisoners and such) along with being in charge of the camps, many were conscripted into, or joined because it was 'their field of interest' or some joined because having been SS would guarantee an excellent job post service. (looked good on the resume) Others signed up for it because they thoufght they'd get better duty choices. (Like joining the national guard to avoid being drafted into the infantry)

So even within the ranks of the SS there was a variety of party liners along a continuum. I think the SA was pretty much Political Hardliners only.

as waffen SS made up some elite corps as well. (SS Panzer divisions for example). So even though SS Troops were usually also responsible for battlefield horrors (shooting of prisoners and such) along with being in charge of the camps, many were conscripted into, or joined because it was 'their field of interest' or some joined because having been SS would guarantee an excellent job post service. (looked good on the resume) Others signed up for it because they thoufght they'd get better duty choices. (Like joining the national guard to avoid being drafted into the infantry)

So even within the ranks of the SS there was a variety of party liners along a continuum. I think the SA was pretty much Political Hardliners only.

SA (stermabeitlung) was part of the build up...separate originially from the SS (schutzstaffel), ...they were melted into the SS after the night of the long knives...partly because the military that Hitler was courting saw them as a threat (they had huge numbers of brownshirts, the SS was more exclusive). Back then in the 30s it was certainly a way to get ahead and show your loyalty by joining the Nazi party and the SS if they could get in. But by 1944...people were not knocking down doors (with jack boots:p )to join up anymore...

But doesn't that beg the question? I think that was the whole point... has any of his story been authenticated? His age? That it was the end of the war? That he didn't choose the SS over another branch? The issue is that if he didn't come clean for all those years and the story was so defensible, why did he wait so long? And because he waited so long-effectively lying-why do we assume that the current version of events is the truth?

Okay, I reallyl knew nothing about this guy until I saw this story break so unlike others I don't have the hero worship thing going that leads me to believe he isn't fudging facts.

That's the problem with sitting on the secret for so many years. He then gets to tell the version of events that seems the least ominous. Given the secrecy of 60 years, why should we assume that the "conscripted into the SS" at the "tale end of the war" and "didn't know anything" story?

It may or may not be true, and he waited long enough that probably anyone who could repudiate his story is dead. If he were telling the story 30 years ago, I might be more compelled to simply assume the truth of his version of events.

I think it is a tough one.
That seems a bit cynical to me. The facts (not his words) indicate that he volunteered at the age of 17, was then moved into the SS, his entire military career lasted all of 3 months before the Americans arrested him. In one of the articles I read there is a photocopy of his POW paper. I can imagine the disarray in the German military in those last few months; the sense of impending defeat, confusion, failure. Moving soldiers everywhere in last-ditch efforts to maintain image and stability and man-power. I highly doubt that a 2-month 17-year old would have many powers at that stage.

Personally, I think the letter Mrs. Weddle wrote is fairly convincing and descriptive of the situation. I choose to believe that version. Sure, we do not know the "truth", but to imply that a man who won the Nobel Prize for Literature and fought his entire life for democracy somehow committed ghastly acts in 2-3 months during a dying war and is also lying about his involvement, with no proof that he did anything other than what he, Mrs. Weddle and I'm sure countless others did, seems not so charitable.

But doesn't that beg the question? I think that was the whole point... has any of his story been authenticated? His age? That it was the end of the war? That he didn't choose the SS over another branch? The issue is that if he didn't come clean for all those years and the story was so defensible, why did he wait so long? And because he waited so long-effectively lying-why do we assume that the current version of events is the truth?

Okay, I reallyl knew nothing about this guy until I saw this story break so unlike others I don't have the hero worship thing going that leads me to believe he isn't fudging facts.
Yes, enough facts exist to know his age (which relates him directly to the war years; i.e. the end); his POW status; etc. Why he chose to "come out" now...no one can verify that; you believe him or you don't, I suppose.

Sometimes it comes down to faith: do you believe Floyd did or didn't?

As tmb has already pointed out, the circumstances at the end of the war, in Germany, point to supporting Grass' case, rather than repudiating it or believing he is now being insincere. If he were 21 at the time, had served 4 years in the SS, etc. I think I would feel differently.

I certainly don't think this is about "hero worship".

Pee Wee Herman had a spank in a movie theater, but he was never in the Waffen SS.
Tyler Hamilton doped himself to the gills, but he was never in the Waffen SS.
Senator Byrd was in the KKK, but he was never in the Waffen SS.
Rush Limbaugh got hopped up on goofballs, but he was never in the Waffen SS.
Ike beat Tina, but he was never in the Waffen SS.
Pablo Picasso may have been an a**hole, but he was never in the Waffen SS.

Grass used moral superiority as his calling card. Yet he quietly omitted having been a member of the Waffen F-ing SS from his resume? The man is the worst type of hypocrit.

Well, maybe. But there's a lot about how it unfolded and how he's explained it that stretches credibility a tad. I'm not cynical by nature and you can definite not count me as cynical as those who say he made the revelation to increase book sales!

I'm not suggesting Germany be forgiven for the Holocaust.

At what point do those who weren't even born when the act were committed forgiven for the sins they didn't commit?

At what point do those who weren't even born when the act were committed forgiven for the sins they didn't commit?
As individuals, at the moment of their birth, IMO.

But no one should forget or "forgive" the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis as a collective. Ever.

As individuals, at the moment of their birth, IMO.

But no one should forget or "forgive" the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis as a collective. Ever.

I agree. Remembering so as never to repeat is a good thing. At some point though, Germany, the nation, will need to be forgiven too. That time is rapidly approaching as those who were alive through that time die off.

I agree. Remembering so as never to repeat is a good thing. At some point though, Germany, the nation, will need to be forgiven too. That time is rapidly approaching as those who were alive through that time die off.

as long as it would not happen again.. what about the recent victims of nazi skinheads in germany? what would you preach to them? is nazi hatred over?

as long as it would not happen again.. what about the recent victims of nazi skinheads in germany? what would you preach to them? is nazi hatred over?
Definitely a movement to be very wary of, as it grows in visibility, organization, more sophisticated use of media, and numbers with (apparently) increasing rapidity. They are not only in Germany, however, not by any means. Nonetheless, in Europe, with people like Jörg Haider, Jean-Marie Le Pen, Frank Vanhecke, Gianfranco Fini, etc. gaining seats and momemtum, they, to me, represent a dangerous potential base even if their politics (rather, lack thereof in many cases) do not necessarily align exactly with European far-right leaders.

I just have to briefly comment on what I have learned about the Germans from living here for a year. From what I have heard and observed, forgivness from the rest of the world will come much sooner than the Germans will actually forgive themselves. There is a dark cloud of guilt and regret that wieghs heavily on all Germans because of WW2 and the Holocaust. It is such a sensitive topic that it is not easily spoken openly about with the people you meet here. That's why it is a very big deal that Herr Grass has admitted to being in the SS.

My wife was educated in the German school system (she is actually American) and she has told me that the history of WW2 and the Holocaust is repeated throughout your school years from very early on. There is much disgust with these Neo Nazis that you hear about in the news. These people are on the very very fringe of German society.

The Germans also are very reluctant to be patriotic and as an example, during the world cup games this summer, it was the first time since WW2 that the general populace felt comfortable flying the flag of thier country. It was widely regarded as a magical month of July in Germany with people finally showing just a bit of pride in their country.

I just have to briefly comment on what I have learned about the Germans from living here for a year. From what I have heard and observed, forgivness from the rest of the world will come much sooner than the Germans will actually forgive themselves. There is a dark cloud of guilt and regret that wieghs heavily on all Germans because of WW2 and the Holocaust. It is such a sensitive topic that it is not easily spoken openly about with the people you meet here. That's why it is a very big deal that Herr Grass has admitted to being in the SS.

My wife was educated in the German school system (she is actually American) and she has told me that the history of WW2 and the Holocaust is repeated throughout your school years from very early on. There is much disgust with these Neo Nazis that you hear about in the news. These people are on the very very fringe of German society.

The Germans also are very reluctant to be patriotic and as an example, during the world cup games this summer, it was the first time since WW2 that the general populace felt comfortable flying the flag of thier country. It was widely regarded as a magical month of July in Germany with people finally showing just a bit of pride in their country.
Nice post, Rolando.

I agree with what you wrote. I have not actually lived in Germany, but I have stayed and travelled there extensively for more than several years, working on projects in Frankfurt, Dusseldorf, and Berlin especially.

As I mentioned previously, I did hear of and directly witness events of thuggery and prejudice, primarily by (presumed) West German citizens against ex-East German citizens and Turks. This was startling to witness, given that I was there before, during, and after the demolition of the Wall. The exhilaration of the demolition of the Wall seemed short-lived, when soon after ex-E G citizens were issued "entitlement" cards because of their generally lower economic status. The violence against Turks was also surprising, given the large population of Turks who had already lived in Germany for many years. As an Italian whose relatives were Partisans in the Veneto (and some killed) the reaction to this was ugly to see. Hatred, up close, is an evil thing to witness, in any form.

However, almost all the Germans I actually really met, got to know, became friends with, were consumed, in some dark corner, with the sense of guilt Rolando speaks of. The topic would arise in the most unexpected situations, surprisingly, almost as if someone were speaking from a dream. Young people, old people, smart people, humble people, cab drivers, advertising kings, builders, etc. This cloud seems to still hang over the current generation, in all strata of society, and in many cases seems to be a difficult obstacle in many people's lives, intellectually and morally at least. It also seems, like Linus' cloud, that it is easier for an "outsider" to see.

I think the emergence of a new and potentially powerful right-wing movement is terrifying to many Germans and is eating away at the sense of hope post -Wall Germans felt. Reality has set in, and reality is rarely pretty, especially given the travails of re-unification, etc.

Again, despite the cynics, I think this could be a major reason that Grass revealed his WWII activities only recently...not as a confession, certainly not as a stimulant to increase book sales, but rather (as any true artist would) as a lamp on current events.
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(An Azzurri aside: It is also true, as Rolando points out, that the World Cup was a significant event in the sense of positive German partriotism.
And yet, of course, I was very, very happy with the final result. :) )

as long as it would not happen again.. what about the recent victims of nazi skinheads in germany? what would you preach to them? is nazi hatred over?

So what. I would warn them that if they break the law they'll be persecuted to extent of the law and then I'd bust them if they did. We have skinheads here in the US, too. They have a right to free speech but when they break the law they get busted. The Jews I know don't even think about the skinhead/neo-Nazi crowd.

You're being naive if you think sentiments like that will disappear forever, like I said earlier, so long as there are borders, religion and race. I guarantee you that if you keep beating them over the head ("preaching" was your word) you will only succeed in increasing the numbers of those who hate you. Just ask a Jehovah's Witness here in the States.

Definitely a movement to be very wary of, as it grows in visibility, organization, more sophisticated use of media, and numbers with (apparently) increasing rapidity. They are not only in Germany, however, not by any means. Nonetheless, in Europe, with people like Jörg Haider, Jean-Marie Le Pen, Frank Vanhecke, Gianfranco Fini, etc. gaining seats and momemtum, they, to me, represent a dangerous potential base even if their politics (rather, lack thereof in many cases) do not necessarily align exactly with European far-right leaders.

i agree w/rolando..a nazi ideology w/ the same symbols and thinking will hardly ever be in power again. at the same time the feelings of superiority and the brutal, atavistic basic instincts didn't go away. as i understand the germans, they are capable of being extremely organized and well behaved but they are not cosmopolitan. they don't accept differences or tolerate mess, like any democracy has to.
something different but as fascist could emerge there?

[QUOTE=cadence90]Nice post, Rolando.


Again, despite the cynics, I think this could be a major reason that Grass revealed his WWII activities only recently...not as a confession, certainly not as a stimulant to increase book sales, but rather (as any true artist would) as a lamp on current events.
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it makes sense. he could have burned himself in the public eyes as a way to burn the right wingers and fascists of the new germany. i understand someone who has already received a nobel and is a literary giant has no need of sales to boost his ego. or does he? who knows. like you said. follow your gut feeling. i believe his confession only brings good. it shows how any talented person can suddenly enter a murder machine just because he is in wrong time.