This is a good thing. It's nice to see, although California is a bit strange, and the people a bit odd. It seems they have figured a few things out. See Attached.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/31/global.warming.ap/index.html

This is a good thing. It's nice to see, although California is a bit strange, and the people a bit odd. It seems they have figured a few things out. See Attached.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/31/global.warming.ap/index.html

Didn't Al Gore invent Global Warming?

This is a good thing. It's nice to see, although California is a bit strange, and the people a bit odd. It seems they have figured a few things out.

Maybe you don't realize it, but without California, the hole within which you exist would start to feel very confining.

Didn't Al Gore invent Global Warming?


No silly, he invented the internet...:thumbsup:

between this and raising our minimum wage again (already about $3 an hour higher than the national) any conservative economist knows this is a recipe for disaster. I don't know how we survive, even getting ripped off by the Presidents buddies in Texas was only a set back.

I dunno, I think it's a fair assumption that many other states and possibly even the fed. gov't will follow CA's lead. Already you have OR and WA adopting CA's auto emissions standards.

You can't look at the costs without also measuring the returns. For example, clean companies can recoup some cost by selling pollution credits to other companies. And with rising fuel costs, there's going to be real financial benefit from efforts to use less fuel.

I am skeptical of the gloom-and-doom predictions because we hear the same thing every time new environmental regulations go into effect. See: Clean Air Act, etc. If you want to live in a cesspool like Russia with no environmental regulation, fine. But IMO the USA is a better place to live because of what has been done so far.

I hope it works. Every change starts with a model and California is an ideal choice. The ticking bomb is China, they are building many coal fired power plants and building more and more vehicles. In another couple of years the US will lag behind China in emissions, we better get busy digging some high sulfer coal and start burning it if we want to maintain our world position. China also has 25% of the world population of people over 65 years old who will suffer the most from the polution and poor air quality. Not trying to throw out a shiny object, just some thoughts.

Seven Northeast states have already published a proposed rule (RGGI) that would limit CO2 emmissions by electric generators. The rule creates a cap and trade program (similar to the SO2 trading program run by the Federal EPA). It's interesting that the States (at least the Blue States) are ahead of the Federal government on the greenhouse gas issue.
But the devil is in the details. RGGI requires generators to buy only 25% of the total emission allowances, the rest are issued for free. That's a huge cash benefit to the industry, which will be able to sell those allowances. In New York, generators will be able to recove the value of those free allowances through increased wholesale market prices. Their is no dispute about that, even the generators who will benefit do not deny that.

Another important issue is "leakage." If a coal plant in the RGGI States is shut down, will its power be replaced by a worse coal plant in the Midwest? That's a real concern. NY has one of the most efficient coal plants in the world, but it also suffers from acid rain caused by Midwest plants. If no leakage is allowed, the cost to consumers is unacceptable. If too much leakage is allowed, the whole program is a joke.
There is virtually no benefit to the public in these rules, unless everyone, including China, evenetually adopts them. The danger is that increased consumer costs will solidify opposition to greenhouse gas control everywhere.

One other thing that concerns me about the California rule is that one of the large electric company supports it. That tells me that they expect a benefit from the allocation of tradeable CO2 allowances, and that can only come at the expense of the consumer. If the cost to consumers is too high, the California rule and RGGI will become an example of policies to avoid. The cynical part of me believes these are both diabolical plots by Republican governors to embarrass their Democratic successors, who will have to preside over the failure of greenhouse gas control.

em

because if we are the leader in environmental 'fixes' we, along with the other clean countries then have more moral authority to put pressure on China to clean up its own act. Second as China's big buyer we can apply pressure by making tariffs based on emissions which we even the economic playing field. "Of course our goods cost more, yours are made in a toxic hell hole" tax so that it protects jobs and companies producing things cleanly here. This is a fair form of trade protection as it forces companies who undersell us due to their missing or crap environmental regs. After that we can do the same for worker safety.

We need to bring China forward, not go back to them.

I dunno, I think it's a fair assumption that many other states and possibly even the fed. gov't will follow CA's lead. Already you have OR and WA adopting CA's auto emissions standards.

You can't look at the costs without also measuring the returns. For example, clean companies can recoup some cost by selling pollution credits to other companies. And with rising fuel costs, there's going to be real financial benefit from efforts to use less fuel.

I am skeptical of the gloom-and-doom predictions because we hear the same thing every time new environmental regulations go into effect. See: Clean Air Act, etc. If you want to live in a cesspool like Russia with no environmental regulation, fine. But IMO the USA is a better place to live because of what has been done so far.
I think it's only the Blue States that will jump on the bandwagon. The optimistic part of me hopes that this will become an issue that turns some Red States to Blue, and eventually helps run the anti-science crackpots and religious nuts out of office. But I'm not holding my breath.

em

like West Virginia are already ahead of the national rec's.

I guess this is Republicanism by incompetence. Have the Federal Govt so out of touch that the states take the lead.

I guess this is Republicanism by incompetence. Have the Federal Govt so out of touch that the states take the lead.

I dunno. The fed. gov't surely has a place in environmental policy, but IMO so do the states. I think it's good for states to take the lead rather than be dragged along by an often out-of-touch federal gov't. But then I am a big state's rights guy.

because if we are the leader in environmental 'fixes' we, along with the other clean countries then have more moral authority to put pressure on China to clean up its own act. Second as China's big buyer we can apply pressure by making tariffs based on emissions which we even the economic playing field. "Of course our goods cost more, yours are made in a toxic hell hole" tax so that it protects jobs and companies producing things cleanly here. This is a fair form of trade protection as it forces companies who undersell us due to their missing or crap environmental regs. After that we can do the same for worker safety.

We need to bring China forward, not go back to them.
I agree with that, but the leadership must come from Washington. Unfortunately, The Worst President of My Lifetime went along with "conservation is not a policy," and still will not admit that Ken Lay was among the "experts" consulted in secrecy.

em

I dunno. The fed. gov't surely has a place in environmental policy, but IMO so do the states. I think it's good for states to take the lead rather than be dragged along by an often out-of-touch federal gov't. But then I am a big state's rights guy.
Greenhouse gas is a global problem. No individual State, not even the 7 Northesat States in RGGI, can have a material effect in global warming. The Federal government needs to take the lead, and bring the developing nations along.
The reason most environmental regulations are Federal is that polution crosses State lines, and because business also crosses State lines, and prefers to work with one set of nationwide rules. Without nationwide rules, industry would migrate to States with no rules at all.
"I think it's good for states to take the lead rather than be dragged along by an often out-of-touch federal gov't." is just another Republican slogan, and while you were busy memorizing slogans, you should have noticed that the whole Conservative movement has been sold out. Spending is out of control, nation-building is foreign policy, and privacy is out the window. If Ronald Reagan were alive today, he'd be rolling over in his grave.

em

. If Ronald Reagan were alive today, he'd be rolling over in his grave.


and I agree that it should be national, but right now National / Federal is doing nothing.

great points both of ya except for the quote.

If reagan were alive today he wouldn't be in a grave to roll over in.

If reagan were alive today he wouldn't be in a grave to roll over in.
Thanks for pointing that out.

em

Here in Michigan, Consumers Energy has a program where you sign up and pay extra so that your "share" of electricity will come from Wind or Biomass instead of Coal or Gas. I signed up yesterday and figured it will raise my cost less than $15 month. I assume something like this is available in other areas.

www.greengeneration.com

and I agree that it should be national, but right now National / Federal is doing nothing.

great points both of ya except for the quote.

If reagan were alive today he wouldn't be in a grave to roll over in.

Is Reagan buried in Grant's tomb?

"I think it's good for states to take the lead rather than be dragged along by an often out-of-touch federal gov't." is just another Republican slogan, and while you were busy memorizing slogans, you should have noticed that the whole Conservative movement has been sold out. Spending is out of control, nation-building is foreign policy, and privacy is out the window. If Ronald Reagan were alive today, he'd be rolling over in his grave.

:lol:

Before you go accusing me of being a Republican you should go read the current Jimmy Carter thread, or pretty much every other PO thread in which I have taken part.

I hope it works. Every change starts with a model and California is an ideal choice. The ticking bomb is China, they are building many coal fired power plants and building more and more vehicles. In another couple of years the US will lag behind China in emissions, we better get busy digging some high sulfer coal and start burning it if we want to maintain our world position. China also has 25% of the world population of people over 65 years old who will suffer the most from the polution and poor air quality. Not trying to throw out a shiny object, just some thoughts.

Tain't one shiny object here. Your posts are thought provoking. One can't help but speak of the sleeping giant when discussing global environmental and economic issues. In my eyes we are on the downward slope of our hegemon curve. I have a feeling, sooner rather than later, China will be the ones making demands and we'll roll over like a well trained puppy beggin' for a treat. I believe they hold about 1/3rd of our national debt right now. The first salvo will be when they take back Taiwan. There won't be a shot fired. Trade wars will erupt, and when Americans can't get there 2.99 Wal-Mart widget, watch out!

And why would that happen? What interest does China have in stopping the sale of $2.99 widgets to the USA?

I believe I heard that the Administration is backing the law suit from the energy companies that are trying to stop this. The only states rights this administration likes are the right to do what this administration knows is right.

Thanks for pointing that out.

em

oh and you should check, undies is not on the admins side, he's an emboldenerer

Someone lumped Arnold in with the republicans?

You can;t be that out of touch :)