This may be totally off the wall for a question. Is something wrong with me? Today, for what seems like the first time in a couple of years, my legs are not even slightly sore or tired-feeling. I mean, I can dig my thumbs right into my quads without a twinge of tenderness, stretch my calves painlessly, etc. Is this normal for a competative cyclist, is this how you're supposed to feel after rest days?

I took two days completely off the bike, ate well and slept a lot,. I usually take only one day per week off. I can't remember ever feeling totally un-sore..I always feel a little residual muscle sorness, isn't that the norm? I mean, not painful muscle soreness like it hurts to walk and stuff, but 'good-sorness' like you've been working your muscles..

Am I supposed to take enough rest days to be able to "not feel" my legs? Is 'painless' what I'm shooting for after a rest day or the morning of a race? Have I been overtraining for almost two years and not realizing it? Or is a little leg pain at all times OK as far as training intensity goes?

See, told you..totally off the wall question..I'm not trying to "look big" or act macho. I just woke up this morning and realized..."Hey, my legs don't feel stiff at all, wassup with that?" The only thing I've done "un-normal" is take those two days in a row without riding.

Don Hanson

You probably should take an extra rest day every week. One day may not be enough for you if you always feel sore. You are not recovering enough.

You probably should take an extra rest day every week. One day may not be enough for you if you always feel sore. You are not recovering enough.

What he said. Constant soreness inhibits proper training. And if you aren't training, it's not fun to live with.

What he said. Constant soreness inhibits proper training. And if you aren't training, it's not fun to live with.

When I don't train, my legs don't feel sore..At least, so I recall from my years off the bike..

What I was questioning is: Without any feeling of pain or stiffness in my legs, it feels like I am 'slacking' in training. I've been reading Friel's book and trying to follow it, when it makes sense to me. He warns often about overtraining. I started forcing myself to take one day off. I've been incorporating real recovery days into my training, especially since I did a Lactic threashold test recently and found my tested (that day) aerobic HR/onset of lactic acid production numbers. My 'revised' recovery days are at a lower HR than they were before.

But still, a totally painless morning makes me think, "Don, you didn't train when you could have..mebby you've wasted some time here" But then, before I read 'the bible', I always trained as hard as I could go.."more is better" "No pain-no gain" was something I believe(d) before I started trying to learn how others train, guys who are beating me..I am still trying to learn..hence the original question. thanks.

Don Hanson

Without any feeling of pain or stiffness in my legs, it feels like I am 'slacking' in training.

I often feel a little stiff, but not brutally so unless it was a particularly rough ride. Even so, I onsider it a failure in my on-bike and post-ride nutrition if I'm very sore the next day. I think the no-pain-no-gain is old school. Wait, I mean...ok, intervals hurt. But pain 24x7 is right out.

Are you doing better or worse under Friel? And it sounds like you're not really following his book, just using it as you see fit?

I often feel a little stiff, but not brutally so unless it was a particularly rough ride. Even so, I onsider it a failure in my on-bike and post-ride nutrition if I'm very sore the next day. I think the no-pain-no-gain is old school. Wait, I mean...ok, intervals hurt. But pain 24x7 is right out.

Are you doing better or worse under Friel? And it sounds like you're not really following his book, just using it as you see fit?

Like you say in your first and second sentence, I, too, consider a little stiff normal. And sometimes "brutally sore" after a particularly harsh race or workout with some of my faster training buddies, that is expected.

It's just been in the past couple of years where I learned to 're-fuel' quickly after a hard workout, there by improving my post ride recovery and making it all substantially less painful and more productive. So, that has been my normal state..."a little stiff" and sometimes quite sore after particularly hard days..But, not often do I feel totally "not stiff" even after a full day off the bike, or two very short spin-recovery days. Today after two full days off, it felt weird, not even having a twinge of muscle stiffness..

I *am* doing better following Firel's general guidlines. Using it (his "Bible") as I see fit is kinda what I do, yes. I mean, first off, he's got literally hundreds of 'plans' in his book. I have training buddies who're obsessive about "following Friel", but they haven't miraculously starting blazing up mountains or winning every sprint.. I follow his general guidelines, but I am not manic about it, not obsessed with him alone as THE Guru..I stick as closely as I can to his principals. If I do 'error', it may be on the side of training too much. (because I like just biking as much as I like winning races) .which directly violates his rule about "Don't train too hard"..

I love cycling, both as a competative sport and as a very healthy and rewarding activity. I don't make my living riding and training. I've often made a conscious decision to 'go ahead and go on a ride anyway', when according to Friel, I should rest, taper, stay off the bike, whatever..in order to maximize my chances to 'win' the following day in a race. Many times, contrary to Friel's book's theorys, I've actually done better racing after a moderate to hard effort on a fun ride the day before a race. And, I've certainly had more fun climbing passes with friends than laying around the house stressing out about the race coming the following day..

It'll be interesting to see what happens tommorrow on a century club ride we have planned. This week has been a bit of an experiment, for me. I consciously decided to try - this century more rested than usual. This past Wed and Thur totally off, and today just an hour of spinning at <130HR. We shall see how I stack up against my 'benchmark' training partners with this kinda lead out.

But, it feels weird not to be even the slightest bit stiff, and if that's how I should feel following a recovery 'period' , perhaps as suggested, I need to take two days a week.

Don Hanson

But I have rockclimbed for 10+ years.

One of the cardinal rules I've learned is to pay attention to muscle soreness. When my arms and back are no longer sore, I know I've recovered from the prior session. This way, I know that I'm steadily improving. Climbing grades don't lie for same reason wattage doesn't lie.

When I or my climbing buds kept climbing on sore muscles, our performance decreased. It wasn't a matter of "if" as opposed to a matter of "when."

I've retained this principle with my riding and it's worked well for me. When my legs are sore, I will either ride easy (i.e. very soft pedaling) or take the entire day off.

And to state the obvious: masking the soreness with pain killers only delays the inevitable.

just throwing this out there, but there have been more than a few times where i would head out for an "easy ride" with a few friends because we all were a bit sore, stiff, tired, etc. after 20 min of easy spinning we were all feeling great and ended up doing some great rides/climbs. some of the fastest, most fun and hardest training i have ever done. who knows if it was effective, but the next day it wasnt as if i couldnt walk or anything, i just felt like normal

Right, CC09, that happens often to me. The intention is to do a 'recovery' day on the bike, but after warming up and getting a few miles done, I forget. I'm no longer stiff, I don't feel fatigued, someone comes out with a small friendly attack, and I just can't help but respond, at least a little. Or I go out alone fully intending to keep it short, slow, mellow, etc. But dang, after a bit, I decide.."Jeeze this is fun, I feel great, I can't really NEED a recovery day" so I go a bit too hard..

However, this evening I went out for just 15 miles and I felt just super. I also kept to a strict recovery pace, since tommorrow I'm doing an 'experimental' century ride. Experimenting by doing it absolutely rested..I've done the same route about 10 times in the past couple of years, so we shall see if I can tell any difference.. On the other hand, I missed two whole days of riding..I could have had some fun....Hee hee.

Don Hanson

Don Hanson

Actually, just re-read this thread and what I am seeing is..I am probably not recovering enough, according to all the accepted practices. It seems a bit 'counter-intuitive' that "quality" training woud be more worthwhile than continual and sustained training..I use all these terms loosely..But the general concensus seems to be that you do more for yourself if you lay off training till you can train 'hard', and that training when tired or your muscles are fatigued isn't very efficient.
Thanks, everyone, for the input. I am out the door soon to see if being almost totally rested up will make any difference on our club's fall century..Gotta love this route, right after our lunch feed stop, it goes into an 18 mile climb, gaining around 3000'. Just enough grade to keep you pumping and no respite...
Don Hanson

[QUOTE= Thanks, everyone, for the input. I am out the door soon to see if being almost totally rested up will make any difference on our club's fall century..Gotta love this route, right after our lunch feed stop, it goes into an 18 mile climb, gaining around 3000'. Just enough grade to keep you pumping and no respite...
Don Hanson[/QUOTE]

Just a short note about being extra well rested for the century ride. It seemed to help some, but no "miracle" there. I finished about 5 minutes behind the lead group, the strongest riders in our club and a guest young woman nationaly ranked pro triathelete...She made for some testosterone-laden efforts by our lead group. The 18 mile, 3000' climb was actually 21 miles and gained 3500'..That is where I dangled off about 5 minutes, then got some back on the downhill back to the finish.

We rode the 99 miles and 7800' at 16.9 mph avereage, with a few missed turns, in 5:50. A really spectacular fall day in the high country near Mt. Hood, Or.

Don Hanson

It seemed to help some, but no "miracle" there.

Just keep in mind that you may have been overtraining for quite some time. Had you rested better throughout the season, I've no doubt that you would've finished with the lead group.

Sounds like a great ride. Too bad I'm down in Utah.

We have our own fall century - The Heber Valley Century. I've been tapering for the last week.

The three weeks prior to that I've ridden a century on each saturday:

1) ULCER - Utah Lake Century - my group started a good hour after the course officially opened and we still passed pretty much everyone (I even won the finishing sprint)

2) Cache Valley Century - Me and another guy were the lead finishers; the next party was a good 4 minutes back

3) Training ride century - I rode with a guy who was preparing for LOTOJA (a 200-mile one day race). To my surprise, I easily dropped him on a 4-mile 8% climb (if you saw the two of us, you'd put your money on him for long climbs and on me for the sprints). At the top he genuinely looked tired. He also stated that he was out for a 120+ mile training ride - 6 days before a 200-mile race! Bad idea, unless one is chemically assisted.

I tapered for 1 and 2 and 3 - I am SOLD on the idea of tapering.

I have been also tapering for the Heber Valley one on the 23rd. I may have over-rested but it sure beats being over-trained.

Hey 514Climber,

As a rock climber myself, I am one of the few here that know there is a hidden period between the five and the one in your name, and while I am tempted to ask you about climbing 5.14 this is not the forum for that.

I am interested to hear your definition of taper after doing centuries three consecutive Saturdays, specifically the mileage you did each day in your taper week.

This is my taper week for EC. I have spent two days completely off the bike after riding my last training ride on Friday (8 days out), which was a non-pushed century with 10,400 climbing. I was tempted to do the active easy recovery ride the last two days, but wanted to be conservative and safe, so I left the bike on the wall. As I can still feel a slight touch of interior tibia tendonitis (probably from over training), I am wondering if today (day three) is best spent again off the bike, leaving me Tues thru Friday (4 days) to "taper tone" things up, or if three days off is a little too much time off the bike and I need to get out there today.

Richard

Gnarly 928,

I agree with you about Friel. In fact, I use his guidelines to lay out the season as a whole, then when it gets to micro-content I lean more towards Coggan and Morris pronciples, specifically leaning towards block training. Also, reverse periodization since winters are cold. The people who write these books must all live in SoCal. I'm not riding 3+ hours in February in New Jersey, neither outside not on a trainer.

The key that what you're doing is working is that you still love to ride. I am currently at the start of the 3rd week of a block of training I'm doing to gear up for an October race. This is the last of the 3 week block. And I'm tired. I still enjoy the weekend rides, don't get me wrong. But some of these after work rides are work, plain and simple. The light is at the end of the tunnel. And I see improvements with these blocks. And I still like to ride. But this is hard.

It's also possible that you're basically block training without openly knowing it. And it might be that you've had a cycle of down weeks every 3-4-5-6 weeks that has kept it all in check over the years. The phenomenon of overtraining is one of astounding hype. But how many people really overtrain? I mean, really overtrain? Overtraining is when it takes months to get over the funk. What most people experience is overreaching, which is exactly what you want. You break youself down, then recover. Usually it goes in 3-on-1-rest cycles. But some people go with 6-on-1-rest. It may be that you naturally fall in the 6-1 camp and do fine that way.

One thing that is not necessarily true is when you say, "...that training when tired or your muscles are fatigued isn't very efficient." This is not true, entirely. Intervals have been shown to be very effective when done on back-to-back and even back-to-back-to-back days. You just need to give your body 2 or 3 days to compensate. And they're hard, so many people drop out when they do this.

Good luck!

Norm

As stated in my original post, it's only my second year at road riding. However, I do like to go to the local Barnes and Noble on my rest days and voraciously read all the training books (yeah, I'm a cheap bastard for not buying anything other than a cup of joe).

The common denominator among the various books in regards to tapering is maintain or increase the intensity but lower the volume as the event draws near.

I used this philosophy as a blueprint. Then I adjusted my training to what my body told me. I suspect that too many people, regardless of sport, do not trust their instincts but rather do what is expected of them.

*******************

First century was ULCER on Aug 19.

I began to taper two weeks prior. My rides consisted of 30 or so miles at a very high intensity. I included sprint workouts and always included a climb. I live on top of a hill that averages 10% grade in 3.5 miles. The sprint workouts allowed me to hone my strengths while the hills forced me to work my weakness.

August 14th was my last hard effort. I took 15th, 16th, 17th completely off. (I did go rockclimbing on the 16th but that really didn't hurt my legs). On the 18th, I went for a short ride.

*******************

Cache Valley Century was on Aug 26th.

On August 20th (the day after ULCER), I went for a mellow 35-mile ride. Like previous posters stated, I actually felt good after mile 10 or so...good enough to want to push hard. However, I kept the pace easy.

On August 21st, my legs were tired. I decided to take the 21st, 22nd, 23, 24th off. Yep - that's 4 rest days. But that was the message my legs gave. I did go rockclimbing on the 21st and 23rd.

On the 25th, I went for a short ride with a couple of hard efforts and a cooldown.

*******************

I took Aug 27th, 28th off. Short moderate ride on the 29th. Also went rockclimbing a few days during that week.

On Sep 2nd, I did the training ride century. It was a nice psychological break to pick exactly where to ride, how long to ride, etc. That's when I ran into the fellow who was training for the LOTOJA. We rode for about 20 miles together before we went separate ways (he had to go to Park City and I had to head towards Salt Lake).

*******************

For the last two weeks, I've been on my bike about 3-4 days per week. Again, I've kept the intensity high but the rides short (the longest was 36 miles).

I also hit the weights on Sep 13th (leg presses) and 14th (hyperextensions for the lower back and hamstrings) for variety and for maximum recruitment training.

Yesterday, Sept 18, I went for a 26 mile ride with lots of sprint work - to really get my timing down on pulling back and up on the handlebar as I stomp on the pedals. I finished the ride with the usual 3.5 mile 10% average climb home. I made sure to go really hard and even sprinted at the end.

Then I refueled and went rockclimbing. I picked a crag that has a good little hike. I pushed the pace quite hard - zone 4 for about 15 minutes. Great for the calves!

Today, I will most likely ride easy and try to decipher a strange click in my drive train that happens ONLY when I'm in 55x16 to 55x11 (no problems in my 39 ring).

I will take the 19th, 20th, 21st off. Ride easy on the 22nd and the Heber Valley Century is on the 23rd.

I don't know enough about cycling to give out any specific advice. I can only relate what I've been doing and compare notes with other motivated riders.

As a general rule, however, I've found it best to use the current training methods as a starting point - yet not be afraid to experiment and deviate from it.

Thanks 5.14,

That was a very informative and encouraging post.

Richard