So, I've started looking for my next bike. I am looking at a custom ti builder and have a couple of questions. I've looked at Litespeed, Lynskey Performance Designs, Indy Fab, Seven and Serotta. I like all of them because they can make a truely custom bike, not just cut a cm off of a stock tube. I also like them all because they don't have a stupidly long turn around time. My questions are these: Am I missing any builders worth thinking about (don't forget, short turn around preffered. I think this eliminates all the really small builders, but if not, let me know.)? Any of these builders you wouldn't recommend? Thanks for any ideas!

What do you consider a short turn around time?

I ordered a Moots Compact and it took around 6 weeks. It's on it's way to the bike shop now. If that's not too long for you then I highly recommend you taking a look at one. I chose it over a Seven based on ride quality and workmanship, which I think is arguably better.

Besides, when you're spending that much money on a custom bike, I'd think a few weeks difference wouldn't be much of an issue unless you're on a tight schedule for some reason.

What about Roark? I've seen a few and they were pretty nice. A friend has one and raves about their customer service.

http://www.roarkcycle.com

Carl Strong

http://www.strongframes.com

So, I've started looking for my next bike. I am looking at a custom ti builder and have a couple of questions. I've looked at Litespeed, Lynskey Performance Designs, Indy Fab, Seven and Serotta. I like all of them because they can make a truely custom bike, not just cut a cm off of a stock tube. I also like them all because they don't have a stupidly long turn around time. My questions are these: Am I missing any builders worth thinking about (don't forget, short turn around preffered. I think this eliminates all the really small builders, but if not, let me know.)? Any of these builders you wouldn't recommend? Thanks for any ideas!
Yea, your missing a few. In fact, your missing some of the best builders out there. (no offense to the aforementioned in your post) Moots, Carl Strong, Jim Kish, Mike DeSalvo, Davidson, and more. Anything under 12 weeks is very reasonable for custom, beware the promise of short turnaround, this means late delivery. The guys I mentioned will be honest in there time estimate and would rather deliver early than make you a promise they can't keep and deliver late. Of the builders you mentioned, if it was me (and it has been many times) I'd stay clear of the builders you mentioned with the exception of Indy Fab. My experiance with them was excellent, and my frame was in the shop on the day they said it would be. Moots is Moots, IMHO they are the best in Ti, you would be remiss not to talk to Carl Strong, finest custom experiance I've had and a serious artisan frame to boot. Jim Kish has some serious skill, so does Mike DeSalvo, there good friends and Jim teaches Ti frame building @ UBI. I own 2 Moots, an IF, a Carl Strong, and a Dean. I can assure you before it's all said and done I'll have a Kish and a DeSalvo too. Sure, my opinion is subjective, but isn't everybodys? Here's a link that Velonews did on small custom builders, do some homework, Talk to builders, then decide, and good luck!
http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/7605.0.html

The 6 weeks is short turn around. I guess what I was saying is that I'm not sure that I want to wait longer than 3 months or so for a bike (I agree with you P&H Velo, that is reasonable). I can't imagine what my mind would do to me on a wait longer than 3 months. Thanks for the other ideas you guys, I'll definately look into all the aboved mentioned. Anyone else have some suggestions??

Thanks Guys!

What do you consider a short turn around time?

I ordered a Moots Compact and it took around 6 weeks. It's on it's way to the bike shop now. If that's not too long for you then I highly recommend you taking a look at one. I chose it over a Seven based on ride quality and workmanship, which I think is arguably better.

Besides, when you're spending that much money on a custom bike, I'd think a few weeks difference wouldn't be much of an issue unless you're on a tight schedule for some reason.

You should check out Lynskey(founders of Litespeed). They have a 3 to 4 week turn.

Got another vote for Moots! Yeah you seem to miss a lot of other great ti builders!

I also waiting for a custom ti frame from one of the independent builders but I cannot say anything about it yet until it's done.

As for lead time, we are getting close to the end of the riding season for some parts of US so I suspect that backlog is relatively light for most custom builders and if that is the case then long lead time should not be an issue from any of them.

Litespeed and Lynskey are on your list of custom builders? Although Litespeed has a custom shop but I just cannot picture them building a custom frame for me for some reason. As for Lynskey, they just got back in business...and you want them to build you a custom frame?

I have heard good things about Carl Strong, but there is simply no denying that the Moots has the finest welds I have ever seen. Go take a look in the Moots forum at some of the recent posts like Alienator's bike. Those welds that should be framed and placed in a museum, and the bikes have a very simple, clean, and uncluttered look to them. I'm not sure they paint their Ti, but would probably work with you to have it painted if you want that look.

I would guess though that almost all the custom builders have very nice welds.

{Litespeed and Lynskey are on your list of custom builders? Although Litespeed has a custom shop but I just cannot picture them building a custom frame for me for some reason. As for Lynskey, they just got back in business...and you want them to build you a custom frame?}
Litespeed made it on there because I have seen a truely custom, totally one off frame that they made for somebody local. It's similar to one of their models, but has some different shapes than are on the production model. And I guess it seems like the Lynskey's have always been in the business. As far as I know (and I could very well be wrong), as soon as the non-compete clause with the current owners of Litespeed expired, they started building again (heard it was only a year? was it longer?)

For all the outraged Moots fans out there, I have no idea why I didn't type them in my list earlier, they are definately being considered. Thanks for all the help and feedback guys! I'll let you know what happens!

The finest ti builders in the US:

Jim Kish (http://www.kishbike.com/)
Bill Holland, (San Diego, no website), 619-469-1772
Moots (http://www.moots.com/)
Carl Strong (http://strongframes.com/)
Tom Kellogg (through Merlin) (http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/index.htm)
Then the various Davidson, Independent Fabrication, Serotta, Seven, Titus, etc.
Roark is not even in the top 10, as those on the OP list aren't either, imho.
Dean? Come on....50/50 on reviews isn't very convincing....

For all the outraged Moots fans out there, I have no idea why I didn't type them in my list earlier, they are definately being considered. Thanks for all the help and feedback guys! I'll let you know what happens!
I know it's probably not on your mind right now, but based on Ebay action, a Moots frame will typically draw a LOT more attention than a Merlin, Seven or just about any other builder's Ti frame. A lot people use the "lifetime frame" argument to help justify spending the dollars (unfortunately I've never needed much justification) and never consider resale value. IMHO - as long as your custom geometry is too divergent from off the shelf geometry, this should at least part of the equation, even for a lifetime frame.

I was in the market for a Moots VaMoots frame a while back and willing to be patient waiting for the "right" deal to come along. I guess I was too greedy. About a year later, no Moots. The few Moots that came up for auction (in my size) all got lots of bids and the ending price quite high. Along the way I passed many opportunities for Seven and Merlin frames at less than Bargain Basement prices ($700 range - frame only). YMMV - the data is all based on my very unscientific observations.

...not just cut a cm off of a stock tube.

What does that even mean? I can't help you with your choices, but as long as you're going to talk like you know something about Ti frame building, you might consider learning something about Ti framebuilding.

I know of all of the other Ti builders mentioned, but I don't have personal experience with them. Cadence rides a Kish, Terry B rides a Moots, Carl Strong, and others. I chose Moots and I love it. Quality, ride (for me) and the last major bicycle purchase in my household for a while. It wasn't cheap, but when you buy bicycles as seldom as I do, it's worth it. Give Moots a call and speak to them.
Cheers, Wayne

Spectrum... but that may be a little too involved. From what I have heard, the wait times are growing pretty long as well.

I had a custom Seven Axiom made 4 years ago. Fantastic ride and build quality. 6 weeks wait. Its all about the fit more than who makes the bike. There are alot of good builders. If I had to do it over again for a custom Ti bike I would probably travel to Pennsylvania to get a custom Spectrum.

What about Kent Eriksen? He founded Moots. He left in 2005 and started building on his own again in Steamboat this year. He claims short wait times and personalized service. Personally I kind of like his new graphics.

Definitely look north of the border to Guru Bicycles. I ride a stock Velociti and I would put the welds up against ANYTHING on the market today for quality and uniformity.

http://www.gurubikes.com/store/titanium_bicycles.php

The guy can produce the frame of your dreams! Not to mention how the graphics are etched (any of your choice) instead of using something else that won't last as long as the frame. Also, I just saw an article about him on CyclingNews. http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2006/shows/eicma06/?id=results/eicma067

http://www.crisptitanium.com/bye.htm

I went through the same exercise about 3 years ago and I ended up with a MOOTS Vamoots SL. I tested seven, serotta, merlin XL, Litespeed Vortex and others. Moots wasn't even on my list when I began my test riding. Most LBSs out there do not carry any of these bikes. So, you really need to take your time and test ride them all before you decide. But, just let me say that one test ride on a Vamoots will make the decision very clear for you. I did like the seven Axiom but he Vamoots was just in another league in terms of build quality, ride quality and racing geometry.

I did not test the IF Crown Jewel but I have heard many good things about it. I would certainly add it to your list. I was most disappointed with the serotta legend ti. I test rode 4 different legend ti frames and they were all very plush and comforable. But man were they heavy and flexy. The workmanship on the legend ti was also mediocre compared to the others.

Vamoots does custom but they do not have fitters like seven or serotta has. But you can get measured by a seven or serotta fitter and send the results to MOOTS who will build it for a $300 upcharge. One more thing. You should make sure that you need custom. There is a lot of misinformation about custom out there. There are cyclists out there who can benefit from custom. But, there is also the perception that custom is going to give you a better fit and better performance. In the majority of cases that's just bull.

To summarize, when it comes to Ti frames there is MOOTS and then there is everyone else. Don't take my word for it. Test ride one and your search will end.

:idea:

As for Lynskey Performance, the company may have started in january but they have been in the bicycle business for more than 20 years and working with ti for twice that long. As far as I know they are the only company that not only gurantees the fit of your custom, but the performance too. Moots is GREAT and Mike Desalvo does truely impressive work. No matter which company you choose you are going to get a fantastic machine, and i may be a heretic but I love painted Ti!

Any of these builders you wouldn't recommend? Thanks for any ideas!

I think all of the builders you have considered would be able to make you a very fine titanium bike.

As for us here at Litespeed, I think many people really don't understand how much custom work we really do here. From custom cyclo cross bikes, to triple tandems, to bikes for people really tall and really small, we have seen and done it all here.

Check out this custom Blade Tandem for example:

http://www.litespeed.com/images/double.jpg

If your business or personal travels ever take you to the Southeast, or you actually live in the region, my suggestion always is for folks to stop by here and see what we actually do here.

Cheers,

Herbert
Litespeed
www.litespeed.com

As for us here at Litespeed, I think many people really don't understand how much custom work we really do here.

Out of curiosity, about how much more does a custom version of one of your frame cost? I'm not talking a completely unique custom design, but just a small variation on one of your stock models (for example a top tube an extra centimeter longer, or a seat tube 1/2 degree slacker)?

Out of curiosity, about how much more does a custom version of one of your frame cost? I'm not talking a completely unique custom design, but just a small variation on one of your stock models (for example a top tube an extra centimeter longer, or a seat tube 1/2 degree slacker)?

It really depends on what frame but around $400 to $500 is about right.

Cheers,

Herrbert
Litespeed

www.litespeed.com

Although I don't own one (shop owner said I didn't need custom geometry), Merlin does custom work in addition to their stock frames. Might be easier to find a dealer too. Just sayin'!

The finest ti builders in the US:

Jim Kish (http://www.kishbike.com/)
Bill Holland, (San Diego, no website), 619-469-1772
Moots (http://www.moots.com/)
Carl Strong (http://strongframes.com/)
Tom Kellogg (through Merlin) (http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/index.htm)
Then the various Davidson, Independent Fabrication, Serotta, Seven, Titus, etc.


There is very little seperating the best.

-If you can go see Tom Kellog (Spectrum) for a fitting.....that is a great option.
-If you want paint on your frame, I don't think Moots is an option. Resale on a Moots is high.....I find them personally a pretty ugly frame. YMMV (It's personal taste)
-Serotta is great if you have a high quality fitting done.
-Seven , again personally, has the weirdest fitting system out there....if it works for you great, otherewise?
- No Experience with Kish, although I've heard good things.
-Holland has a great reputation.

Enjoy the hunt.....like I said, It's hard to go wrong with any of the top builders.

How do you test ride a custom frame? Why would a test ride on a stock frame (if you could possibly find all of them, built similarly, in your size and within a reasonable distance) have a reasonable bearing on a custom frame?

At this level I really think other factors become more important than the frame itself. All of these builders will produce an outstanding frame. Not all will produce an outstanding buying experience, for you. All have highly satisfied customers but when you're spending this much coin you want to have a builder you really click with. I'd base my decision more on discussions with the builder. How do your personalities match? How do your goals and philosophies of riding and construction match? Which builder really seems like they know you and what you want? Go with that builder.

The finest ti builders in the US:

Jim Kish (http://www.kishbike.com/)
Bill Holland, (San Diego, no website), 619-469-1772
Carl Strong (http://strongframes.com/)
Tom Kellogg (through Merlin) (http://www.spectrum-cycles.com/index.htm)


I can vouch for Bill Holland. He is an excellent builder and a pleasure to work with. However I have not heard of an unhappy customer from either of the builders listed above. I do recommend going directly with a builder though to minimize any communication errors. The turnaround time is similar with them roughly 2-3months depending on the time of year. Talk to them on the phone or e-mail them and see which one floats your boat. The frame will be custom to you and you will most certainly love it when it's complete.

Thanks all for your input. I went with Mel's advise before I read it and talked with alot of builders. Indy Fab and Vicious Cycles seem to be the two that I had the most relaxed conversations with. Nothing forced, no real salesmanship, just pure simple "here's what we would do for you" answers. And you know what, I liked the answers that they gave me. So, seems liked I've knocked it down to those two, any further advise? Especially on Vicious. They seem to be about the size of IF, but not as well known. Or, at least, not as widely reviewed on this site. Any opinions? Thank you guys so much for all the help on this....

vicious makes a fantastic bike, and I know a couple folks who have one and have been completely satisfied. I dont know if they do Ti or if they are steel only, but steel is a great material as well and remember that ride quality is generally a product of tube shape not material.

I lined up next to a guy from IF at this years Chequamego Fat Tire 40 (can't remember his name). Of course he was all decked out in his IF kit and his IF bike, etc. At first I thought he was a little pretentious. We were half way back in the pack and he had his bike set up on a wind trainer. I was thinking, WTF?. Here we are just a bunch of joe blows and this guy thinks he needs to warm up in the middle of the pack before the start on a wind trainer? He ditched the trainer after a few minutes and we got to talking. Really nice guy! About 10 minutes before the start he leaves his bike and walks to the front. Who would do this so close to the start time? Turns out he was singing the national anthem. Man, what a voice! One of the best renditions I have ever heard. Truly professional, not only because he had a great voice but he really put heartfelt feeling into it.

Never saw him again after the start. Left me with a great impression of IF and taught me not to judge a cyclist by his wind trainer.

Steve Potts???

Steve Potts???
:thumbsup:
Great builder. And now back in business.

Was fit by LBS who sells both Serotta and Seven. Will focus on these two given service, etc. of LBS. They are recommending either Ottrott or Elium SG given I ride a lot in the hills.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Fully loaded, Serotta is $2K more.

What does that even mean? I can't help you with your choices, but as long as you're going to talk like you know something about Ti frame building, you might consider learning something about Ti framebuilding.


Blah, blah blah, yawn ... burp lol

Blah, blah blah, yawn ... burp lol


it took you 6 months to think that???

it took you 6 months to think that???



don't hang out in here 24/7 52 weeks/year like internut geeks like you.

lol, burp :-)

it took you 6 months to think that???


I'll respond sooner next time when I start hanging out in here every single day of the year like you. LMAO

It seems to me there is no substitute for the builder seeing you on your current bike. I was able to show him what I liked and disliked about it. He talked to me for an hour on how I ride and what problems I had. Then I let him design the rest and pick all the components.
I have never ridden any of my previous 4 bikes since receiving my Spectrum.
I know many people who didn't go the personel route and are still very happy with their custom. He is only a few hours drive from me and he has such an easy going personality.