I actually agree with...time to throw out the republican and democratic ballots and vote third party. That's exactly what I plan to do in the upcoming election(s), and Dobbs has some excellent points here...don't know if he can sway more voters, but his message is right on the money....Thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/10/Dobbs.Oct11/index.html

I'm all for third parties, but I would rather see divided government at the moment.

I have yet to see a third party organize from the local level to the extent that I think them a viable alternative in the long run. If the libertarians or the greens started getting on school boards, or taking over state legislatures, then I would get on the bandwagon. But with rep control, I think it is time to change that.

Had enough? Vote the bums out. And a third party vote will not vote the bums out.

I'm all for third parties, but I would rather see divided government at the moment.

I have yet to see a third party organize from the local level to the extent that I think them a viable alternative in the long run. If the libertarians or the greens started getting on school boards, or taking over state legislatures, then I would get on the bandwagon. But with rep control, I think it is time to change that.

Had enough? Vote the bums out. And a third party vote will not vote the bums out.

Lou is sometimes a damn raving lunatic I think, but then at other times, he makes some sense really, and then back to raving lunatic. He has his days that's for sure. That being said, I also can be a raving lunatic on certain days, and make some sense on others, probably like the majority of folks here.

Lou is sometimes a damn raving lunatic I think, but then at other times, he makes some sense really, and then back to raving lunatic. He has his days that's for sure. That being said, I also can be a raving lunatic on certain days, and make some sense on others, probably like the majority of folks here.

Lou is hard to keep track of. Just when you think he's on your side, he turns and bites you on the butt. I just don't trust him anymore. :)

I'm all for third parties, but I would rather see divided government at the moment.

I have yet to see a third party organize from the local level to the extent that I think them a viable alternative in the long run. If the libertarians or the greens started getting on school boards, or taking over state legislatures, then I would get on the bandwagon. But with rep control, I think it is time to change that.

Had enough? Vote the bums out. And a third party vote will not vote the bums out.


I agree. We need checks and balances again. We've been too long without them and the country is a frikkin' mess because of it. As much as it pains me (and it does), I'm pulling blue across the board.

I'm all for third parties, but I would rather see divided government at the moment.

I have yet to see a third party organize from the local level to the extent that I think them a viable alternative in the long run. If the libertarians or the greens started getting on school boards, or taking over state legislatures, then I would get on the bandwagon. But with rep control, I think it is time to change that.

Had enough? Vote the bums out. And a third party vote will not vote the bums out.


do it, I despise almost everything the DNC stands for, and they are IMHO, maybe worse than the current neocon incarnation. I am not at all happy with the current regime.....that leaves me with two choices...either, not vote at all, or vote third party......that's where I'm at.

Voting for a third party worked so well in 2000. Maybe Lou wants to be Ralph Nader's running mate in 2008.

I'm sick of all the attacking that goes on during campaigns. It is a shame they just can't state their points without dragging the other person through a minefield. I would gladly vote for a 3rd party. I'm so sick of the other two that I doubt I will ever vote again.

There are a number of propositions on the ballot here too and there always seem to be two about the same subject. That confuses the easily confused. Same with them though. Attack , attack, attack. I've had it.

Your analysis is astute and solid.

When I was in graduate school in New Haven in the mid 80s the Greens were doing just that. Running people for the school board and selectmen. I lost respect for them when the whole focus became national.

I'm sick of all the attacking that goes on during campaigns. It is a shame they just can't state their points without dragging the other person through a minefield. I would gladly vote for a 3rd party. I'm so sick of the other two that I doubt I will ever vote again.

There are a number of propositions on the ballot here too and there always seem to be two about the same subject. That confuses the easily confused. Same with them though. Attack , attack, attack. I've had it.

The political earth has been scorched. I think the destruction of both parties is a good thing and I seek to help that happen. Attack, attack, attack. Raise the level of disgust to the breaking point.

Lou is hard to keep track of. Just when you think he's on your side, he turns and bites you on the butt. I just don't trust him anymore. :)

Wasn't Foley accused of biting butts? (Oh the imagery...)

I don't think Lou is on anyone's side. He just tells it like it is. That's what leads to his soapbox style madness...

I know he has used one of my emails, and the bastid still hasn't sent me a copy of his book! I plan on reading his new book, "War on the Middle Class."

I agree. We need checks and balances again. We've been too long without them and the country is a frikkin' mess because of it. As much as it pains me (and it does), I'm pulling blue across the board.

This country works so much better when the opposite party controls Congress/House/SCOTUS. The fear of impeachment certainly helps keep presidents in line. I certainly hope Conyers gets his chance come January. Checks and balances...

Don't forget, the media also rolled over like lapdogs for this president. Journalists did more than their fair share of unethical things.... Like Armstrong Williams, he took $250K from the Dept of Education to promote NCLB.

Jeff Gannon was invited into the WH press corps by Herr Karl to direct questioning.

During the march to war, I think it was Judith Miller who was be fed stories on Iraq for the Sunday NY Times so Dick Cheney could go out on the talk show circuit and talk about them while they appeared in print.

It just seems that there has been a trend of unAmerican activity by this administration:
1. Torture and Human Rights Violations
2. Spying on Americans
3. Propaganda
4. Pre-emptive War
5. Incompetence

This country works so much better when the opposite party controls Congress/House/SCOTUS. The fear of impeachment certainly helps keep presidents in line. I certainly hope Conyers gets his chance come January. Checks and balances...

Don't forget, the media also rolled over like lapdogs for this president. Journalists did more than their fair share of unethical things.... Like Armstrong Williams, he took $250K from the Dept of Education to promote NCLB.

Jeff Gannon was invited into the WH press corps by Herr Karl to direct questioning.

During the march to war, I think it was Judith Miller who was be fed stories on Iraq for the Sunday NY Times so Dick Cheney could go out on the talk show circuit and talk about them while they appeared in print.

It just seems that there has been a trend of unAmerican activity by this administration:
1. Torture and Human Rights Violations
2. Spying on Americans
3. Propaganda
4. Pre-emptive War
5. Incompetence

I'm of the view that the government works best when Congress is split evenly in both houses. IMO, it should be damn near impossible to get bills to the President for signing AND/OR, the President should veto every bill out of hand so it goes back for the 2/3 override if it's really that important. More laws is almost always a bad thing. More laws is not what was envisioned.

Wasn't Foley accused of biting butts? (Oh the imagery...)

I don't think Lou is on anyone's side. He just tells it like it is. That's what leads to his soapbox style madness...

I know he has used one of my emails, and the bastid still hasn't sent me a copy of his book! I plan on reading his new book, "War on the Middle Class."

No, Foley is accused of talking dirty on the internet to minors, to this point, his bite hasn't been discussed..........oficially.

Lou Dobbs isn't one of my favorites, he is too close to your views most of the time. :)

I actually agree with...time to throw out the republican and democratic ballots and vote third party. That's exactly what I plan to do in the upcoming election(s), and Dobbs has some excellent points here...don't know if he can sway more voters, but his message is right on the money....Thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/10/Dobbs.Oct11/index.html
depends on who the 3rd party is of course, but I agree with Dobbs more often than not...I'd probably vote for him if he were running.

I agree with him about how GW's current policies are tantamount to class warfare.

all Lou is saying is what I and Old ed were yellin' about many years ago.
The Republicans are having class war but hiding it under culture war.
getting a huge chunk of middle class folks to vote for a bunch of corporatists, which is in turn a vote against their own self interest is 'hard work'

Dobbs is right. American Workers are kicking butt and moving backwards for it. While the wealthiest are getting wealthier and still complaining they pay too much.

all Lou is saying is what I and Old ed were yellin' about many years ago.
The Republicans are having class war but hiding it under culture war.
getting a huge chunk of middle class folks to vote for a bunch of corporatists, which is in turn a vote against their own self interest is 'hard work'

Dobbs is right. American Workers are kicking butt and moving backwards for it. While the wealthiest are getting wealthier and still complaining they pay too much.

Dobbs is not only pointing hs finger at the Republicans, but also at the Democrats as well, his point it is THAT BOTH parties are bought and paid for by lobbyists and special interest groups. That NEITHER party is representing the middle class today. That is his message, and he is trying to persuade as MANY people as possible, people like Vol and myself to vote third party.:thumbsup:

Dobbs is not only pointing hs finger at the Republicans, but also at the Democrats as well, his point it is THAT BOTH parties are bought and paid for by lobbyists and special interest groups. That NEITHER party is representing the middle class today. That is his message, and he is trying to persuade as MANY people as possible, people like Vol and myself to vote third party.:thumbsup:
Agree on all counts, but who is the 3rd party?...sometimes you have to vote for the devil you know. You'd think of all the people in this great country of ours that there would be one viable candidate that people could really get behind. Perot was about as close as we got, but then again he had tons of money to play with and publilcize himself--not many have that luxury.

Agree on all counts, but who is the 3rd party?...sometimes you have to vote for the devil you know. You'd think of all the people in this great country of ours that there would be one viable candidate that people could really get behind. Perot was about as close as we got, but then again he had tons of money to play with and publilcize himself--not many have that luxury.

The problem with a third party that can pull a significant number of votes is that it will generally appeal to people of one persuasion or the other, liberal or conservative. That will only serve to weaken that side to the extent it guarantees the victory of the other, Perot being a good example. The problem as I see it is that the Democratic party has marginalized itself with it's special interests, embracing every liberal theme and allienating a huge bloc of the voting public. the hard rhetoric against Born Again Christians being an example of this. It doesn't only reject many of their values but deminizes them for their beliefs which can only serve to harden their minds and push them to the right as the lesser ofd two evils. I would like to see a moderation of both parties so that Americans could once again see some of themselves reflected in both platforms. Phat chance :)

The problem as I see it is that the Democratic party has marginalized itself with it's special interests, embracing every liberal theme and allienating a huge bloc of the voting public.


i agree. from a marketing standpoint, the democratic party fails miserably. if anyone in the middle or on the left wants a regime change, you need to capture the majority of the votes. placing yourself as close to the middle as you can be, will entice the middle-leaning righties, the moderates, and the entire left. what's so hard about that?

vol, phys - i feel ya. i have yet to vote. not once. i'm not sure how i feel about my political apathy. partially proud, partially ashamed, wholly pissed off about the current situation that led to these feelings.

The Dude,

It's your civic duty. That probably means nothing to you, but if you don't vote then you have no voice. People like you either haven't learned the scrifices it took to build this great nation, or you don't respect those sacrifices cause you've been given everything.

If you're willing to let the masses decide your fate then you've given up your right to complain.

"Ah, gee, things really suck right now. Hmm, guess I shoulda joined society and voted." D'oh!

People don't necessarily have only one vote. We talk to others in a community. We have influence over friends, family members, and fellow employees. We can join groups that share like values.

Your political apathy speaks volumes as to why this nation is in such bad shape. Sitting on the sidelines only makes the situation worse.

The Dude,

Your political apathy speaks volumes as to why this nation is in such bad shape. Sitting on the sidelines only makes the situation worse.


i am vocal within my community and social circles. but personally, i'm absolutely torn when it comes to voting, so i don't. say what you will about me, but that's where i stand.

if handed a gun and instructed to kill either your son or your daughter, which would you choose? drastic analogy, but similar to how i feel. i have strong moral convictions that split the issue right down the middle.

both parties have failed to capture those of us in the middle, and i refuse to vote for a third party, since the vote will only strengthen one side and weaken the other.

Dobbs is not only pointing hs finger at the Republicans, but also at the Democrats as well, his point it is THAT BOTH parties are bought and paid for by lobbyists and special interest groups. That NEITHER party is representing the middle class today. That is his message, and he is trying to persuade as MANY people as possible, people like Vol and myself to vote third party.:thumbsup:

and his finger pointing on both sides. but we can more quickly (as we have shown) clean our own house on the left than the right can. I'm sorry, both parties cheat, but one side cheats for the upper 2% the other 'might' cheat for labor unions, thus the working middle class.
we can get rid of those that don't represent our views on this side (see Joe Liebermann)
there is no such oopportunity on the right with the big dumb voting block

i am vocal within my community and social circles. but personally, i'm absolutely torn when it comes to voting, so i don't. say what you will about me, but that's where i stand.

if handed a gun and instructed to kill either your son or your daughter, which would you choose? drastic analogy, but similar to how i feel. i have strong moral convictions that split the issue right down the middle.

both parties have failed to capture those of us in the middle, and i refuse to vote for a third party, since the vote will only strengthen one side and weaken the other.

Dude,

I hope you don't have that much trouble picking out your socks in the morning? :p

Answer to the gun, you shoot as many of the bastids who told you to shoot your son/daughter. At least you know you'll take a few of them with you...

Now, a better analogy is "what do you do if your car breaks down?" Do you sit there and watch it rust, or do you do something to fix it?

I'm a recovering Republican. I live with the fact that I voted for GWB in 2000 every single day. I don't truly blame myself cause he lied when he said "he didn't believe in using the US military as nation builders." I liked what both candidates were saying, but this was the thing that pushed me over to Bush. (Good God do I now wish we had a lock box...)

I also live in a Red state. No matter what I did, our state was going for Bush. I happily voted for Kerry in '04. At this point, I will be voting Democrat until I die.

HeII, write in Mickey Mouse for all I care... If you hate both parties, join the Green party. At least they recycle. :p

You mentioned wanting to see the destruction of both parties, but then you mentioned you would vote blue....BJ, you said sometimes its better to vote for the devil you know, and ATP, you say you agree with the point......

My question is...would our FF have shunned away from trying to change the tide? Would they have sacrificed their beliefs to ensure that one party lost. Most of them didn't believe in political parties, many of them thought it would lead to devisiveness and distrust of the government. Don't you think that you need to make a stand for your ideals? If you TRULY believe the system is broken, only you and I and as many others as possible, like Dobbs can change this...

My point is....if you think like I, and others do.......then you should vote your conscience, and take a stand......vote for your ideals...and your beliefs. Otherwise...we truly are lost.....possibly forever. This may be first elections-midterms that is, where third party congressional candidates will have a REAL chance to make a difference.......I say we give it to them....

Trying to fix the status quo won't work......the special interest people are too entrenched, too embedded. We must speak loudly with one voice as a people and say simply...


ENOUGH!!!!!

And if you don't have the courage to vote your convictions..than I truly feel sorrow...both for you, and for the future of our country.

Dude,

I hope you don't have that much trouble picking out your socks in the morning? :p

it's not nice to make fun of people who have more socks than sense!

Now, a better analogy is "what do you do if your car breaks down?" Do you sit there and watch it rust, or do you do something to fix it?

i agree. my analogy sucked, but i was working and pressed for time. your analogy reminds me of a conversation i had with a woman after the last election. she called me out, much the same as yourself, and told me the answer isn't to ignore the problems, but work for change. something i have obviously failed to do.

I also live in a Red state. No matter what I did, our state was going for Bush. I happily voted for Kerry in '04. At this point, I will be voting Democrat until I die.

i live in a blue state, and nothing i do will tip the scales much.

HeII, write in Mickey Mouse for all I care...

mickey mouse is a whiney little b!tch. he will NOT be getting my vote!


.....

You mentioned wanting to see the destruction of both parties, but then you mentioned you would vote blue....BJ, you said sometimes its better to vote for the devil you know, and ATP, you say you agree with the point......

My question is...would our FF have shunned away from trying to change the tide? Would they have sacrificed their beliefs to ensure that one party lost. Most of them didn't believe in political parties, many of them thought it would lead to devisiveness and distrust of the government. Don't you think that you need to make a stand for your ideals? If you TRULY believe the system is broken, only you and I and as many others as possible, like Dobbs can change this...

My point is....if you think like I, and others do.......then you should vote your conscience, and take a stand......vote for your ideals...and your beliefs. Otherwise...we truly are lost.....possibly forever. This may be first elections-midterms that is, where third party congressional candidates will have a REAL chance to make a difference.......I say we give it to them....

Trying to fix the status quo won't work......the special interest people are too entrenched, too embedded. We must speak loudly with one voice as a people and say simply...


ENOUGH!!!!!

And if you don't have the courage to vote your convictions..than I truly feel sorrow...both for you, and for the future of our country.


you don't have the courage to vote your convictions, let's see how the FF felt:

Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to REFORM, ALTER, OR TOTALLY CHANGE THE SAME, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it.

-John Adams

To restore....harmony....to render us again one people acting as one nation should be the object of every man really a patriot.

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere.

-Thomas Jefferson

The fabric of American empire ought to rest on the solid basis of THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE. The streams of national power ought to flow from that pure, original fountain of all legitimate authority.

-Alexander Hamilton

Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks-No form of government can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea, if there be sufficient virtue and intelligence within the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men. So that we do not depend on their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, BUT IN THE PEOPLE who are to choose them.

-James Madison



I ask you again...do you have the courage to vote your convictions this time?

I share your outrage but unfortunately we live in a 2 party system. Vote Alt party locally (where it can have some effect) try to overthrow the electoral college and go to a direct system. Both sides are corrupt but tell me honestly which side has done the most a$$ phucking of the average American over the last 30 years? Which side has had an endless record of corporatist/military industrialist behavior at the expense of
a) the workers and general middle class
b) public safety
c) the environment
d) education
e) social welfare
etc..?
Until I can change the system I'll vote the side that cheats more of the time for me.
Since I'm not a Multi Hundred Millionaire (and I doubt anyone on this site is) I gotta put my vote to the side that best represents my interest. When they don't, I write them letters and vote for change in the primaries.
Voting 3rd Party in Big Elections is still (unfortunately) pissing in the wind.

I'll work on that Master plan in the long run. In the short run we need to get these criminals out of office and right this frickin' ship.

I ask you again...do you have the courage to vote your convictions this time?

You are putting the cart before the horse...who is this glorious 3rd party candidate that we should support? I don't think voting for Harry Browne or some other fringe party yahoo just to spite the GOP and Dems is gonna do anyone much good.

the next 2 years would be with all the trials and convictions.
heck putting a bunchg behind bars would be the first step in changing the way the system woirks.

you really wanna fix it. No outside campaign finance period. Most Americans are too cheap to want to pay for it so instead we have a corrupt system fed by 2 Billion a year in outside money. The corruption is so bad now, the industry and their lobbyists are writing our legislation.

Public Campaign finance is the key, who's in with me?

the next 2 years would be with all the trials and convictions.
heck putting a bunchg behind bars would be the first step in changing the way the system woirks.

you really wanna fix it. No outside campaign finance period. Most Americans are too cheap to want to pay for it so instead we have a corrupt system fed by 2 Billion a year in outside money. The corruption is so bad now, the industry and their lobbyists are writing our legislation.

Public Campaign finance is the key, who's in with me?


I would LOVE to see campaign finance reform....unfortunately, it's gotten so bad, you have a LOT of people like Vol..who are simply saying F it, why bother...Voter apathy is rampant. I have no illusions that a third party candidate could occupy the WH, BUT they could get some congressional seats. They had a political analyst on CNN late last night who basically said...RIGHT NOW...is the best chance that third party candidates have possibly ever had to get some congessional seats. I say my votes will try to give them that chance..will they win...Dunno. But you can count one vote that normally went red, to go third party this year. BJ...I don't know about the third party candidates in your area, only you can know whether they are flakes or real possibilities....If they're flakes, don't vote for them, but if they're passionate REAL people....don't you think you owe them, nay, owe your country the chance for a fresh start on the political landscape. I think my duty as an american is to try and give them a chance.....I don't know whether they will win or not, but I will use my rights and VOICE as an american citizen to express my disgust.