OK, very frustrating course Sunday at Estabrook Park, Milwaukee. Good, but kicked my butt.

LOTS of weaving and cornering through grass.. and I just COULD NOT corner with my packmates!

I'm weighting hard outside pedal, leaning way in, even cranking the bar until I can hear grass tearing (Mud2 on front) but I can't hold the line the other guys are cutting. AARG!

I have a Cannondale Optimo frame with a steel fork... same rake as the Ritchey I just bought but haven't put on a bike yet.

It could be the frame... I corner as well as any and better than a lot in a the back of a pack 5 crit.

It could be I'm too far back? Or my technique sucks? It's been a bit of a problem all season (my first) but this course made it obvious my work in the switchbacks is hurting me a lot- to the point of almost being off the course.

Is the Optimo (couple years old) a more relaxed frame? I can easily ride it no-handed, where my road bike... you have to pay serious attention to no-hands.

If you have experience with frames and how they corner in the weavy switch-backs in grass.. any comments?

Meat

OK, very frustrating course Sunday at Estabrook Park, Milwaukee. Good, but kicked my butt.

LOTS of weaving and cornering through grass.. and I just COULD NOT corner with my packmates!


what where you running for psi?

Are you sliding out or just loosing time?

As argyle says what PSI in that mud?

Reflexively ---> not the frame unless its obviously bent, not likely the fork either. Over inflated tire are a possibilty.

About 40psi, maybe less... low! I ran the warmup laps, and kept dropping my already low pressure until I was feeling the big sticks and rocks on the rims enough to say to myself "remember not to go over these!"

One of my pals said to try moving the saddle forward to shift weight up front.

I was hoping someone would say "Oh yeah, Cannondale Optimos rule on the cruise when you are pedaling squares and need all the help you can get- but turning- not so much" Cause... I like buying bikes... bad habit, I gotta stop. I can stop any time I want! Just one more....

You know?

But it could be the headtube angle...

meat

I doubt it's the frame, I had an Optimo and had no issues with it in the corners. 40psi is kind of high but you said you kept letting air out so who knows. What tires you using? I find that some knobbier tires such as Conti Twisters don't grab on as well as something like a Michelin Jet or Mud with smaller knobs on the sides. One other thing to think about is that you can try practicing "flowing" through the corner if that makes any sense, I've done a bit of mtb racing before I got on the road and I can tell you that cornering on dirt is A LOT DIFFERENT than on road. With road bikes you kind of throw your weight in the opposite direction that your bike is going when cornering to stay upright but when mtbing I can kind of lean my bodyweight into the corner as well to "flow" through the corner. Again...I don't know if that makes any sense to you.

My advice...

1. Stay seated.
2. Don't lean way in, just balance yourself.
3. Don't crank the bars.
4. If you're running clinchers, switch to tubulars.
5. Different tires, try challenges... very flexy in the corners.

It's not the bike. It could be you. It's probably the tires.

Hey Dogmeat
Do you come from a road riding back ground? I found after a buddy told he could not corner very well on his MTB bike that he rode it like he did his road bike. With his body more in line with the frame. Try and lean the bike in to the turn but keep your upper body more upright and your elbows out just a bit.
Dan…

Looks like it's me. Cross is different, gotta respect that.

It would be great if you could just buy your way out- but nope- gotta keep learning and practicing. There was a chance, though.

Oh, tires are Mud2 on front, Jet on back. Works good on most everything except dry loose dirt.

This course had almost had it all... no sand pit though. You hit pavement, bomb down rooty doubletrack at high speed in the woods, hand a hard left and BANG! steep muddy runup, then a twisty downhill snake with frickin' grapefruit sized rocks bouncing around in the turns, then back up, more pavement, then a lot of snaking through the grass with barriers. Fast, short. I screwed up, dropped a chain, and 10 guys blasted by on singletrack. My fault.

Thanks for the advise on turning, esp. flowing an balance. If it was easy, it would be power boating. just gets frustrating sometimes. I need to get myself some cones and make a few little barricades. Sucks it's dark by the time work ends up north here.

It would be great if you could just buy your way out.

You can, they are called Dugast. Really, tubulars will help you corner. Still, you need to get better, so buy 100' of course tape and some flags. Twice a week, go to a park that has lights and set-up some turns of various configuration.

The key is to LEAVE corners with speed, not necessarily to enter them fast. Also, were you at the back of your group when you entered each corner? You'll get the whip-lash effect if you do.

SLOW IN/FAST OUT: slower than you might think going into the corner/turn, carry as much mo as you can through the middle of the corner/turn, fast out of the corner/turn. It is the quickest way to get faster lap times; to work your speed up incrementally. Same goes with off-camber stuff, with these CX bikes and their skinny tires, once they start to go, if you're carrying too much speed it is very difficult to catch them and get back on track (and you lose most/all of your mo getting back on track). Again, sorry for the racing cars in the rain metaphor but, they always used to tell us "Slow Down! both the car and your movements in the car... try to act like you're in slow motion, no quick or jerky movements. Keep things smooth." And what everyone else has told you :thumbsup: Good Luck!

Work on your line through the turns, you want to select a line during pre riding that will allow you to make the turn with the minimal ammount of handlebar turning, all other things being equal. Carrying a lot of speed into a turn and trying to crank around in a hurry will just lead to lost traction and spills. It's just like a crit turn, often.

Hey Dogmeat
Do you come from a road riding back ground? I found after a buddy told he could not corner very well on his MTB bike that he rode it like he did his road bike. With his body more in line with the frame. Try and lean the bike in to the turn but keep your upper body more upright and your elbows out just a bit.
Dan…

Dido this response, especially in slick conditions. Cornering off road vs road (bike) is like apples and oranges. Maybe try setting up some cones in a grass field or something & Practice, practice, practice!

DP

Other than echo other's thoughts here, I'll add - since these are corners on grass and it doesn't sound like you were going down, set up some cones in the park, go fast as you can..... and fall! Took me a while to wrap my head around that, but you might just amaze yourself when you start pushing your limits. Not something that's really an option on other mediums (road, singletrack), but grass, go for it!

Since I got rid of my old Cannondale CAAD3 frame and replaced it with a Redline, I've felt like I can corner better. Maybe it is the bike....





Or, maybe it's the extra practice.

OK, very frustrating course Sunday at Estabrook Park, Milwaukee. Good, but kicked my butt.

LOTS of weaving and cornering through grass.. and I just COULD NOT corner with my packmates!

I'm weighting hard outside pedal, leaning way in, even cranking the bar until I can hear grass tearing (Mud2 on front) but I can't hold the line the other guys are cutting. AARG!

I have a Cannondale Optimo frame with a steel fork... same rake as the Ritchey I just bought but haven't put on a bike yet.

It could be the frame... I corner as well as any and better than a lot in a the back of a pack 5 crit.

It could be I'm too far back? Or my technique sucks? It's been a bit of a problem all season (my first) but this course made it obvious my work in the switchbacks is hurting me a lot- to the point of almost being off the course.

Is the Optimo (couple years old) a more relaxed frame? I can easily ride it no-handed, where my road bike... you have to pay serious attention to no-hands.

If you have experience with frames and how they corner in the weavy switch-backs in grass.. any comments?

Meat

All you chief.

Well, I'm not a cyclocross racer. But it's been my experience that bikes with a high bottom bracket for better clearance, I can't get to corner worth a damn...real understeer.
But I'm a roadie, so what do I know.

Cornering off road vs road (bike) is like apples and oranges.

Physics is physics. It doesn't really matter that much what type of surface you are on. It's just that you can be a little more sloppy with technique on the road because most people never come close to testing their cornering limits.

Some bikes definitely handle better than others in different situations. I find I like cross bikes with a relatively small trail measurement as they are more responsive to turning (twisting the bar) and less responsive to shifts in body weight. This results in more stability at the low speeds encountered in the most technical sections of a cross race course. But it's still mostly about skills- practise blah blah... One habit you want to develop is having a strong awareness of how you use your front vs. rear brakes. Cross levers are reversed compared to typical (North American) setups on road and MTBs and I used to have a hard time re-wiring my brain to not have to remember which lever front or back. So I eventually just switched all my bikes around and after some time no longer have to think about it. Off-camber downhill switchbacks go much better using more rear brake, even allowing the rear wheel to lose traction a bit to slide around corners. On flat surfaces, more front brake is better. The point is to not have to think about which hand to squeeze more, and experiment with your brakes- you don't have to think about that very much in road racing (well, maybe on Belgian cobbles!). The other thing is to remember that you can continue to pedal while you apply your brakes to keep the wheel from locking up. I learned that one from riding on snowy roads. As long as your wheels are both turning you have some control over your line, but as soon as your rear wheel locks out your bike will want to slide out from under you. So learn to pedal through turns where you can even while braking.

Cannondale CX frames seem to have high-ish BB heights to start. Start messing around with different forks and you could well end up with a bike that does not corner well, especially in a pack of race-oriented bikes.

I have a 2004 Cannondale CX 1000 that I put a Winwood Muddy Cross carbon fork on, and with Mich Mud's on it-- well, lets just say the bike is a lot more talented than I am. I have NO problem keeping up with guys in the corners, off-camber stuff, single track, etc. Its when they mash on the pedals that I get left behind, and that's not the bike's fault, that's a "motor" issue (:blush2:). I'd just keep experimenting, there's lots of good advice in this thread, and you'll find something that works for both you and your Cannondale.

I have an '04 C'dale Cyclocross and have no issues w/handling. Just curious, why did you put a steel fork on it? What kind of steel fork? Did you make sure the rake and axle to crown length were the same as the stock fork? That shouldn't make a huge difference but I'd be interested in hearing more.

I've got a Cannondale Optimo CX with the Slice Carbon fork and it corners just fine. Although, it seems that the head angle on the Cannondale is kind of steep in comparison to a lot of other CX bikes, which I don't necessarily like that much, but it's more of an issue with how the bike handles on technical downhill stuff.

Your cornering problem seems to be more of an issue with line and speed through the corner rather than traction. I do a lot of mountain bike racing too and I've learned that taking the right line and speed into a corner is crucial. Do you feel like you are over-shooting the turns so that you lose speed coming out of the turns? If so, it is because you are either taking too much speed into the turn or you are coming in too far on the inside of turn. The car racing analogy is spot on. Come into the turns at a wider angle and scrub some speed, and then accelerate out of that turn hard. If you are losing rear wheel traction, you're doing it wrong.

If traction is bad either because of mud or loose gravel, then you have to do it differently because you can't really accelerate while still turning the bike. Here it pays to scrub more speed so that you can make a sharper turn through the corner. The point being to get your bike pointed in a straight line sooner so you can start powering away.

My Optimo CX with Slice fork rails technical dowhill and corners fine too. But OP is not talking about a stock frameset so all the Cannondale testmonials in the world don't mean much.

Also, since OP is in a pack and presumably able to observe and follow the lines that others are taking, I am less inclined to blame his line choice.

PBB makes some good points, but my money is still on speed, not so much line, into and through the corners, and while it still could be the equipment, my bet is the "challenges" described are somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% operator, 15% equipment. If 50-75% of the operator "challenges" can be "fixed" via practice and improved technique, I think the perceived lack of speed (keeping up with the other guys) would be negligble. All that being said, I would not settle until I found a frame/fork/tire/PSI that you think fits your riding style-- but know, as you practice and experiment a new style that fits the equipment you have may come to you. Be patient and persistent.

Thanks for all the good tips.

I love this sport. I can see I've got many years of learning to do. Fun, seeing progress, and also getting frustrated as hell. There's good racing going on, even at the back of the Cat4 pack.

Notes:
Moving seat forward does change handling!
"Elbows in" helped me turn better consistently
Slow in, fast out... got to keep that in my head and practice
Got to practice more with tape and cones
Steel fork- what was on the bike. I've burried a wheel and endo'ed a few times practicing, and it soaked it up. I have a nice Ritchey ready to mount after races are over.

Yeah, I bet it's all me. When I got a good line, and the gods shone on me, I roasted a few people in the twisties at Washington Park. My pal Al saw it and was screaming, it was like I was actually good. Just frustrating when my chops go to hell.

Dogmeat

Full disclosure: I SUCK at 'cross...

That said, here's my $.02.

Bfore your race, try leaning into some corners on the surface on which you're experiencing a slow down. Find out exactly what your tire choice can handle... Just find a little straight stretch, and then hang a left (or right) with outside foot down HARD and weighted. Once you know that, you'll have a sense of how hot you can hit the corners in the race... Whenever possible, enter the corner as far to the outside as you can (right up against the tape if you can, slam your outside foot down with a decent pedal stroke, and as soon as you clear the cone/pilon/tree, point your bike at the outside tape and give a hard right pedal stroke to pop your bike vertical... Then start hammerin!

Well said, well said...I would just add another thing - look where you want to go (are going) not just right in front of your wheel. Your body (and the bike) follows your head so make sure it's up and looking where you want to be out of the turn.

Good technique in cross will improve all of your riding skills no matter your specialty.
Mud on!!