To Chas or Tino, could you guys tell me when you might expect the 595 Elle to start shipping? My Wife is looking for a new frame and I was thinking of suprising her one day...


Thanks again!

Matt

To Chas or Tino, could you guys tell me when you might expect the 595 Elle to start shipping? My Wife is looking for a new frame and I was thinking of suprising her one day...


Thanks again!

Matt

Hi Matt,

We currently have limited numbers of the 595 Elle in Small and Medium available to ship. Do you know what size your wife will need?

chas@LookUSA

Thanks Chas!! LOL!

Thanks. She is currently riding an older TCR composite which she has made enough upgrades to to just need a new frame and she will have a pretty sick ride. It is a size Small and when I looked at the geometry data on your website a Small would be best fit.

I did notice, however, that there seemed to be no geometry differences between the Elle and the Origin? Is this true? Or perhaps a broken link? She's not so keen on lighter colors, and if there is no difference, she may opt for the 585 origin in the Dark Blue/White as they are her school colors.

Thanks again!
Matt

Thanks. She is currently riding an older TCR composite which she has made enough upgrades to to just need a new frame and she will have a pretty sick ride. It is a size Small and when I looked at the geometry data on your website a Small would be best fit.

I did notice, however, that there seemed to be no geometry differences between the Elle and the Origin? Is this true? Or perhaps a broken link? She's not so keen on lighter colors, and if there is no difference, she may opt for the 585 origin in the Dark Blue/White as they are her school colors.

Thanks again!
Matt

The Elle and Origin have the same geometry; the only difference is color. The dark blue/white 595's should be in stock the first week of December in her size.

I'm just curious but why would does Look make a woman specific bike with the same geometry as the regular version? I was under the impression that WSD bikes tended to accomidate women who proportionately had longer legs than most guys.

Thanks!

I'm just curious but why would does Look make a woman specific bike with the same geometry as the regular version? I was under the impression that WSD bikes tended to accomidate women who proportionately had longer legs than most guys.

Thanks!

You're absolutely correct in thinking that a WSD bike should have different geo than a men's bike. Our Elle line for next year will be a true Women's line. For this year though, it's strictly a color. Not the best scenario, but a step in the right direction.

How is changing the color a step in the right direction? Get an Orbea.

How is changing the color a step in the right direction? Get an Orbea.
I am intensely curious about those new Orbea Divas. I am in the market for a new bike and was hoping my LBS would get one or two Divas in that I could test ride. No luck yet. :(

I ordered a blue diva - it's being built at my LBS as we speak. There is a review that just appeared on the home page of bicycling.com that raves.

They are one of the few (if not the only) european maker that has been making women's geometry bikes for years.

I had considered a Look Elle until I realized it was just a men's geometry bike painted a lighter color. Helmets are like that too. Women's helmets are the same size - just painted pink. It's extremely annoying.

I ordered a blue diva - it's being built at my LBS as we speak. There is a review that just appeared on the home page of bicycling.com that raves.

They are one of the few (if not the only) european maker that has been making women's geometry bikes for years.
Thanks for the heads up on the review. Just saw it and I'm going to add the Diva onto my list of "possibilities".

.....

A group of us were riding by Helen’s on Broadway in <st1:city w:st="on"><st1>Santa Monica</st1> </st1:city>and one of my friends had a lust seizure when she saw a Diva in the window. They had a 49 in stock and said they usually had a few in stock. You might want to call them to see if they have one in your size coming in so you could test ride it. They said a couple of weeks to order one. Beautiful looking bike but my frugal nature keeps me from really thinking too much about those kinds of things. :D

<o></o>
Re: Elle..It seems a little odd and silly to me to see a bike listed as a WSD only based on a color change. Holding rant back. :cool:
Holy cow! 49cm is my size. I'm going down there this week!

A blue Diva? Lucky you.
Not such restraint on WSD rant here...this is born out of searching for a new bike and subsequent frustration...

Here in Oz, we have 3 Orbea WSDs bikes available. Yet only the top end DIVA (starting price around $US5,500 here) offers 2 colour choices, black & pink, or black & lime green. The next tier down, the DAMA Race is available only as white with lolly pink graphics, followed by the DAMA which is reversed as overall lolly pink with white graphics. Pink, pink and more Princess pink. Ditto to nearly all the other manufacturers with their various shades of pastel. Why do they do that!!

Unfortunately for me my body geometry is best suited to a WSD. But my heart likes the more sporty red, black and silver colour combos of the mens bikes. Why is it next to impossible to find a full frame carbon bike with Ultegra level componentry, so you are talking dedicated cyclist level, not entry level, WSD, that doesnt cost an arm and a leg and that gives me a colour choice that doesnt involve stereotypical pink?

I have nothing against pink bikes, I even wear pink, its just that its not my choice when I want to be mentally competitive on the sporting field. And this is about choice.

It seems to me the options for many women in cycling is:
1. buy a mens bike for the look and tweak the fit to make it approximate comfortable. For me this would require around 70-80mm head spacers - very long legs to ultra short torso and arms.

2. buy a WSD bike with a colour scheme you find patronising, and resent it for the life of the bike. Or pay extra for a respray.

3. or find around $US5,500 plus to buy a top end womens bike where the colour scheme is more serious and sporty. In my case, this would be way overkill for my cycling level and not justifiable.

Come on manufacturers, do a little more homework, give us a little more respect, find out who your market is and what they want.

"pink it and shrink it" is still the working paradigm for many companies in all sports.

Orbit: Have you looked into having a different color shipped to you from Europe? Bellatisport.com said they would ship a blue one to me and it would have ended up being the same price. In Europe they have the Zeus cranks which I love but I ended up going with a local dealer who gave me a discount. Check Bellatisport.com or hollymillcycles.com. If not them, maybe gottaridebikes.com in the U.S. For this kind of money, you should get EXACTLY what you want and someone is going to be willing to ship to you, at the very least, a frame.

In Europe they offer the Diva in Orange/black and White/black as well. The Dama Race and Aqua Dama are available in great blue or orange combos too.

I also wear pink sometimes but I spend more time on my bike than on my couch and I would never buy a pink couch. It's a major purchase. My gender is not my calling card on my bicycle-it shouldn't have to be. I'm a cyclist first, then maybe hill climber, then maybe a commuter.

But judging from the RRR Orbea forum the divas are being sold to men who are trying to interest their non-cycling mates to ride or perhaps are trying to justify their own purchases e.g. "honey if you let me buy this Opal I'll get you this pink shiny Diva." Between the name (that personally makes me cringe) and the pink they are hoping the mate will go for it. Whether the bike actually gets ridden is another thing.

And, unfortunately, if you read women's cycling forums they are mainly discussions of where to buy a pink component or whatever. I do think that most women eat this stuff up, though probably not most athletic women. Most hard core cyclists like me were tomboys as kids. We didn't ride Barbie bikes then and we sure as heck don't want to put thousands of our hard-earned dollars into one now.

If it's any consolation, the diva is more of a purple than a pink.

Orbit: Have you actually seen the lime green? It is a very odd choice - Orbea has had nice greens in the past. I was hoping maybe the photos don't do it justice?

Hi janetaylor, il sogna, orbit, kaotikgrl, and any other women who may be perusing this thread,

A couple of our guys recently returned from France and brought some news regarding the women's specific products in our 2008 line that I thought you may be interested in. As some of you may know, about 8 months ago Look transitioned from selling through a distributor to opening a US headquarters. One of the main goals of this move is to provide Look France with better input regarding product development, and one of the first things we told them - well before we were even open for business, in fact - is that we need to offer a women's specific bike. Because of the time involved with developing a new frameset, we were not able to offer this in our 2007 line but chose to offer a women's specific color since this was a relatively easy last-minute change to make.

For our 2008 line, we will offer the 585 Elle in women's specific geometry as well as color (although I'm not sure what the color will be at the moment).We will also offer women's specific pedals at the Keo Sprint level. They will essentially be the same as the Sprint, but will have a slightly ligher entry/release tension, and colored to match the Elle frameset. There are additional women's products currently on the table, but I'd prefer to wait until decisions are finalized to discuss these.

I definitely appreciate what I've read earlier in this thread, and as we go forward with our women's line some of your comments will definitely be passed along to the development team. If any of you have any further questions, suggestions, comments, or concerns, please feel free to drop me a PM or e-mail.

Regards,
chas@LookUSA
cbelden@lookcycle-usa.com

Ooooh. I use Keos now and love them. Light blue would match my new bike, hint, hint.

Why is it that Americans want WSD and Europeans don't? Are there more serious women riders here in the U.S.?

Why is it that Americans want WSD and Europeans don't? Are there more serious women riders here in the U.S.?

That's a great question Jane and to be honest with you, I don' t know why that is although I've wondered the same thing myself. My guess would be that it's more an issue of economics and scale rather than need. European brands tend to be much smaller relative to a company like Giant, Trek or Specialized, tend to sell fewer units, and tend have smaller product lines. For a big company with 30 different models and selling 100,000 units a year, they may sell 3,000 - 5,000 women's specific bikes across all price ranges. Compare that to a traditional European company who may have 5 different models (all of which are fairly high dollar items) and sell 4,000 frames a year. A company like this will realistically only sell between 75-125 women's specific frames/bikes per year. Now, if you are building a bike out of steel or aluminum, it is fairly easy and inexpensive to adapt production to build a batch women's specific frames. However if you build frames from carbon fiber, it is much more difficult since you need a dedicated mold for each model and size that you are building. Unfortunately these molds are very expensive and depending on how many units you sell, a niche bike such as a women's specific model may not end up being profitable. This is my theory anyway, hope it helps.

Regards,
chas@LookUSA

For our 2008 line, we will offer the 585 Elle in women's specific geometry as well as color (although I'm not sure what the color will be at the moment).We will also offer women's specific pedals at the Keo Sprint level. They will essentially be the same as the Sprint, but will have a slightly ligher entry/release tension, and colored to match the Elle frameset. There are additional women's products currently on the table, but I'd prefer to wait until decisions are finalized to discuss these.

I definitely appreciate what I've read earlier in this thread, and as we go forward with our women's line some of your comments will definitely be passed along to the development team. If any of you have any further questions, suggestions, comments, or concerns, please feel free to drop me a PM or e-mail.

Regards,
chas@LookUSA
cbelden@lookcycle-usa.com
Chas, please pass this up the food chain at Look. If the only color you offer for a Women's specific bike is pink, you will not get my business. I refuse to ride a pink bike.

Also, I am intrigued by the prospect of a women's specific Look. My impression of some of the carbon frames I've ridden is that they have a lot of road noise and I am hoping that your lugged frames are quieter. I have not been able to test ride a Look because the bike shops in my area do not stock them in my size.

I can hardly wait for your 2008's to come out. As a matter of fact, I might not be able to wait. I test rode an Orbea Diva today and it is a great (albeit a noisy) bike. I could very well wind up with that Diva soon.

Chas,

There are some wise words and strong opinions in this thread from the woman who are your target market. Please take them on board when reviewing your women's range.

From many, many discussions I have had with dozens of local bikes stores here in Sydney, as well as with my “serious” cyclist friends, M & F, there is a considerable male market of corporate type guys with money to spare who think nothing of paying $US4-5,000 plus to have the kudos of a European Pinarello, Colnago or Look and who then may only ride it for 40k once a week. (and all credit to them for their achievements and their taste.) Yet, this is NOT the mindset of a female cyclist choosing her own bike looking to spend a decent amount of money. This is a women who intends to do some serious riding where the bike is NOT regarded solely as a fashion or status accessory.

Look at the women riding 80-100ks rides on weekends and the ones who regularly group train at 5.45am three times a week and it would be unusual to find a pink/pastel bike amongst them. These women choose a men's bike in part to be taken seriously. And, because they PREFER the look of them to the girly WSD bikes. Its the market where componentry counts, its Ultegra plus. This is your market.

I understand the economics you mentioned, yes, the WSD market is small. At the same time, I am totally convinced that if the manufacturers gave women a more considered colour choice (in the medium to high end level) the market would increase significantly. It would then also be cool to ride a WSD bike. I echo Il Sognos and Janetaylor, I will not buy a pink bike.

Wouldn't the ideal situation be where the bike choice is based on geometry only? Where men and women could buy either geometry without it being labelled gender specific. At the moment you have women buying mens frames no problem, yet hell would freeze over before you had a man buying a so called womens frame. Yet the professional fitter I visited told me he has at least 3 male clients who would fit best on a WSD bike. How about LOOK revolutionising the market and bringing out a "revised proportion" geometry frame, attractive to both sexes???? It might just happen to fit those with longer legs and shorter torsos. (You heard it here first)

I have seen (and test ridden) the pink Orbea DAMA, here its approx. $US3,250, not to be sniffed at, yet add a Disney Little Mermaid decal and it would look as if it was designed for an 8 year old girl. It fits me perfectly and rides nicely, but would I buy it? Never.

By the way, there is a solely WSD brand who still gets it wrong. SUB or the Sarah Ulmer Brand ( www.sarahulmerbrand.com ) have their Ultegra level SUBZeroPro, $US3,250 bike as, you guessed it, in black and PINK! Their pro level bike (SUB Rosa) is a more desirable black and silver, but at price to match, it rules most of us out of the picture. Il Sogno, if you are looking to spend big money on the DIVA, you might want to have a look at the SUB Rosa.

janetaylor, thanks for the bellatisport.com tip - wonderful, a choice of 6 colour schemes for the DIVA! (My preference is for the bronze or white). The web listed price seems to good to be true at 60% of what I would pay here so I have emailed to ask whether it is possible to ship to Australia and also to confirm the web price. If this price isn't accurate, I’m back to the Colnago with the 80mm headspacers.

Chas,

There are some wise words and strong opinions in this thread from the woman who are your target market. Please take them on board when reviewing your women's range.

From many, many discussions I have had with dozens of local bikes stores here in Sydney, as well as with my “serious” cyclist friends, M & F, there is a considerable male market of corporate type guys with money to spare who think nothing of paying $US4-5,000 plus to have the kudos of a European Pinarello, Colnago or Look and who then may only ride it for 40k once a week. (and all credit to them for their achievements and their taste.) Yet, this is NOT the mindset of a female cyclist choosing her own bike looking to spend a decent amount of money. This is a women who intends to do some serious riding where the bike is NOT regarded solely as a fashion or status accessory.

Look at the women riding 80-100ks rides on weekends and the ones who regularly group train at 5.45am three times a week and it would be unusual to find a pink/pastel bike amongst them. These women choose a men's bike in part to be taken seriously. And, because they PREFER the look of them to the girly WSD bikes. Its the market where componentry counts, its Ultegra plus. This is your market.

I understand the economics you mentioned, yes, the WSD market is small. At the same time, I am totally convinced that if the manufacturers gave women a more considered colour choice (in the medium to high end level) the market would increase significantly. It would then also be cool to ride a WSD bike. I echo Il Sognos and Janetaylor, I will not buy a pink bike.

Wouldn't the ideal situation be where the bike choice is based on geometry only? Where men and women could buy either geometry without it being labelled gender specific. At the moment you have women buying mens frames no problem, yet hell would freeze over before you had a man buying a so called womens frame. Yet the professional fitter I visited told me he has at least 3 male clients who would fit best on a WSD bike. How about LOOK revolutionising the market and bringing out a "revised proportion" geometry frame, attractive to both sexes???? It might just happen to fit those with longer legs and shorter torsos. (You heard it here first)

I have seen (and test ridden) the pink Orbea DAMA, here its approx. $US3,250, not to be sniffed at, yet add a Disney Little Mermaid decal and it would look as if it was designed for an 8 year old girl. It fits me perfectly and rides nicely, but would I buy it? Never.

By the way, there is a solely WSD brand who still gets it wrong. SUB or the Sarah Ulmer Brand ( www.sarahulmerbrand.com ) have their Ultegra level SUBZeroPro, $US3,250 bike as, you guessed it, in black and PINK! Their pro level bike (SUB Rosa) is a more desirable black and silver, but at price to match, it rules most of us out of the picture. Il Sogno, if you are looking to spend big money on the DIVA, you might want to have a look at the SUB Rosa.

janetaylor, thanks for the bellatisport.com tip - wonderful, a choice of 6 colour schemes for the DIVA! (My preference is for the bronze or white). The web listed price seems to good to be true at 60% of what I would pay here so I have emailed to ask whether it is possible to ship to Australia and also to confirm the web price. If this price isn't accurate, I’m back to the Colnago with the 80mm headspacers.

Since we're a shop which focuses a great deal on women, I see a lot of ladies who fit horribly to their bikes, and put up with a great deal of discomfort. We average about 2 fits per day on women, and have begun seeing women come from other parts of the US to be fit (Let me tell you, there's a lot of pressure on you when someone buys a plane ticket for a bike fit!). Having studied the differences between men and women, and more specifically, the way they fit on bikes, and as a consultant to two bike companies on wsd design, I feel I have at least a little more than a general working knowledge on the subject, and felt the need to chime in.

First of all, I'm astounded that manufacturers continue to simply paint a bike pink or purple and call them wsd. However, I would also point out that virtually every manufacturer who designs "wsd geometry" does so under the assumption that women have longer legs and shorter torsos than men - which is, indeed, a myth. When you look at the anthropometric data, men and women, on average, have exactly the same proportions in regard to leg and torso length. There is a significant reach difference, but it's in the arms and hands where we find it, and it's an important difference!

Here's the problem, and why I like your post so much: no one is average! As you stated, people should be individually fit to bikes based on their proportions, not their sex. Your are correct that there are plenty of men who would fit better on a true "wsd" bike, and there are some women, usually over 5'6", who can fit just fine to a "men's" frame. I,too, would like to see the "wsd" identifier go away, but there's marketing issues involved, so it's a tough call for manufacturers.

One important thing to understand, and something that's overlooked in the bike industry almost completely, is that a women's pelvic shape/structure forces her to sit differently on a saddle compared to a man. There are two issues involved here - I'll touch on them, but I'm not going to give away all my secrets. :-) First of all, a women's weight is directed more to the center of the saddle than a man's, and this makes life uncomfortable for a typical, male oriented, riding position. Secondly, women bend at the waist differently than men, and it effects bike fit tremendously. The auto industry figured this out years ago - there's a reason seats in Chrysler minivan are different than a Dodge pickup!

I like Shimano's approach to shorter reach on their STI levers - they don't call them wsd, they call them "Short Reach" - very cool. Lots of men, without knowing why, will grab Shimano short reach shifters and like the reach to the brake lever, until they realize it's a "girl's" lever! Go figure.

What you wrote about women's mindsets when it comes to bike choice is spot on! Women are more careful and demanding shoppers than men. They are not fooled by the latest and greatest - they want function over fashion, and they want comfort! And it's not just in bikes - I'll be honest and say I hate selling women cycling shoes - man, it's a lot of time spent trying on every shoe in the store and listening to how they don't like a particular stitching pattern, or color, etc. But that's what make women great! If you want to sell to the women's market, you'd better design and manufacture your product right.

When it comes to color, well, manufacturers are in a no win situation there. The moment they paint a bike, they alienate a significant percentage of their market. Offering color choices is a good way to go, but it does increase costs. There's lots of negative attitude about pink and, indeed, the most popular women's bike in my shop is black. But, just as many women want "girly" colors as do not, so it's an impossible situation.

One last thing, the women's market is still maturing, and there's a significant number of women who aren't yet ready to move into high-end carbon frames. In fact, on average, the ceiling is about $1500 at the moment. I'm sure this forum is filled with those willing to spend more, but the majority of female cyclists do not post here. As Chas pointed out, making molds for new geometries is very expensive, and it takes a lot of frame sales to make up that cost. Right now, it's tough to justify the cost for limited sales.

My advice to manufacturers is thus: Creat bikes with a shorter reach (combining TT length, with short reach components such as bars, stems, etc), and also make the head tubes taller. I spend my day bringing both men and women up and back. So many people are reaching too far, and too low - it's comical.

As for wsd, it's here to stay, and as manufacturers continue to see the market potential, you'll get products designed just for you. I applaud any manufacturer who takes on the challenge, and would point out that Look's idea with the Elle pedal is a very good one.

Women tend to carry more weight in their hips and less weight in their shoulders than men. To achieve a similar balance point on the bike women would tend to want a shorter distance to the handlebars since less of their weight is in front of the seat.

The goal of mfgrs should be producing bikes that are both useful and desirable. The message is loud and clear that pink isn't desirable for hard riding women on this forum. If they represent the critical mass for WSD bikes, which at the high end is probably the case, they ought to consider a different color. If your critical mass for WSD bikes is the women in pink tops I see at spin classes who want to try the road, then pink bikes with upright geometrys might be just the ticket.

What troubles me is the stereotyping that is implied in making everything pink. I can't imagine men's bikes being as limited in color as our suits.

There's no question that women have longer inseams for their height than men. I am 5.4" with a 32" inseam. I am very average for a woman. The average man with a 32" inseam is much taller.

Men and women in the U.S. run in even numbers. I don't see most women running in pink shorts. There are a few certainly but it's not a majority. Most women don't ride bicycles because they are not fitted correctly so it hurts.

This is changing very slowly of course but seven years ago if you bought a bike, as I did, you were given the bike that the chart said a man of your height should have. I remember a ride I did when I first bought this bike (a specialized). I had only been riding about 15 miles when my neck started hurting me so bad that I remember thinking that I would not lift up my head anymore to look where I was going. If something was in the bike lane I would just have to crash into it. Obviously if I had kept riding this bike I wouldn't have become the rider I am now. Most women have bought a bike in the past and then thought "riding a bicycle hurts" and so they decided to do aerobics, running, swimming or whatever else instead. Why bother? I ended up buying a Terry and was amazed at the pain free ride. I never knew that I should expect to ride pain free.

While makers are now starting to realize that they have been missing out on a huge market, I'm afraid that for the most part bike shop owners and employees still pooh-pooh the idea and think there is no difference and that it's just a marketing gimmick. They rarely stock all sizes of WSD (if any at all) and have no idea of what the real differences in geometry are. The dealer that sold me my Orbea thinks it has a shorter top tube - it doesn't - the head and seat angles are different. I can't imagine him trying to sell a Diva to a walk in. I was interested in a Merlin but was told that I would have to pay for it sight unseen. Same with the Trek Madone WSD - they measured me and told me which size I'd have to order without ever getting on a bike. That's ridiculous. These makers are trying so hard to reach this market but I would say need to do a much better job at educating their dealers about the differences and offering incentives to get them to place them on their floor which is, I understand, a limited space.

As the market grows I think will see less of the appalling pink Contessa-type marketing gimmicks. They are clearly doing this marketing for a reason. My guess is that most high-end sales are gift-type sales. Most Contessa's will be gathering dust in garages.

Orbit: Was that price just for the frame? I had contacted an Oz shop looking for a Zeus stem and was shocked at the favorable exchange rate you all have over there compared to the American dollar so it could be you will save some money. Let me know how it goes. There is a bronze Orca at my local shop. It's pretty slick.

Jim & Spinfinity, you speak the same language as my bike fitter, Steve Hogg (www.cyclefitcentre.com and www.cyclingnews.com - form & fitness panel). His “further reading” links make for very informative reading, particularly in regard to this thread the 2 articles he wrote on positioning for women called “Sensitive Issues” .

Jim, I laughed when I read how you hate selling women cycling shoes: I am that woman!

If making frames geared more towards women is a costly excercise for a manufacurer, then it makes economical sense to market them inteligently: call it “womens specific” and yes, you sell to women but instantly alienate your male market from that product, call it “short reach” or some-other positive spin and you can embrace both markets.

Jim, you summed up the situation perfectly, the perception amongst men AND to a certain extent amongst dedicated women cyclists, is that products for women are “less cool” or even sub-standard and in buying an admittance that you can’t cut it amongst the real hardcore players. There is no quick and easy solution here, but manufacturers “pinking it and shrinking it” as thebreeze so aptly called it has provided ample fodder for this thinking to flourish.

Chas, if you are taking note, look at how the buzz about Orbea and the DIVA has spun through this international forum. I bet there will be a sudden “unexplained” sales spike. And we here would be only the tiny, vocal 1% of this market. Women talk and we share information. And thats the best advertising there is. Orbea have got women on side from offering a genuine product, in an extensive range, not a token colour. Importantly, please have a look that the identical MENS bike, the ORCA comes in exactly the same range of colours as the DIVA! Orbea are to be applauded for being so sensible and classy, a colour palette cleverly selected.

janetaylor - we have a terrible exchange rate to the $US here. The DIVA bike with Ultegra here starts at ($AUS converted) $US 5,435.00 and goes up to $US 8,540 for campy record and mavic es. Eek! Bellatisport.com list the frameset from $US 2456 and a complete ultegra bike at $US3,687.00. A good saving, although when I add on the necessary customs tax etc. I would end up paying $US 4,387.22. My internal debate continues as to whether I live on instant noodles for the next 2 years to pay for the beautiful DIVA ride, or go for the more affordable for me Colnago CLX. (Ha, thats nearly an oxymoron, “an affordable Colnago”!)

janetaylor - we have a terrible exchange rate to the $US here. The DIVA bike with Ultegra here starts at ($AUS converted) $US 5,435.00 and goes up to $US 8,540 for campy record and mavic es. Eek! Bellatisport.com list the frameset from $US 2456 and a complete ultegra bike at $US3,687.00. A good saving, although when I add on the necessary customs tax etc. I would end up paying $US 4,387.22. My internal debate continues as to whether I live on instant noodles for the next 2 years to pay for the beautiful DIVA ride, or go for the more affordable for me Colnago CLX. (Ha, thats nearly an oxymoron, “an affordable Colnago”!)
The Diva I test rode had a sticker price of $4999 US. It had Shimano Dura Ace with an FSA crank. Also Ksyrium SL wheels.

I went with Ultegra (had my heart set on Chorus but chickened out when I realized how thumb-oriented it is - I have an old basketball injury that gives me grief if I mouse with my right hand) but upgraded wheels substantially to Rolf Vigors which run $900-total was $4450 (including tax) with 10% bicycle coalition discount on frame, 15% on everything else. Orbea does not give a break if you buy the whole kit. It's MUCH cheaper to buy components, wheels etc. online even when you pay for labor for the build but I didn't have the heart to do it to my LBS.

Between you and me and the breeze, gottaridebikes gives a 15% discount over their already cheap component prices. If you buy the frame from them too (they're an Orbea dealer) you could do quite well. Don't know how that would work out for you orbit. When I wanted to buy that stem from an Oz dealer, they wanted $400 US! They sell new for $140 so I thought the exchange rate was good from your end.

My advice is see if you can get the frame from bellatisport and buy the components wheels, etc. online. If the pink orbea you test rode fits you like a glove it's worth it - they all have the same geometry. Another place I researched to buy components was lickbike.com Ebay might be even cheaper.

Orbea overcharges for Campy so if you go that route it's definitely worth it to buy separately. My guess it they're trying to encourage SRAM.

There's no question that women have longer inseams for their height than men. I am 5.4" with a 32" inseam. I am very average for a woman. The average man with a 32" inseam is much taller.

Men and women in the U.S. run in even numbers. I don't see most women running in pink shorts. There are a few certainly but it's not a majority. Most women don't ride bicycles because they are not fitted correctly so it hurts.

This is changing very slowly of course but seven years ago if you bought a bike, as I did, you were given the bike that the chart said a man of your height should have. I remember a ride I did when I first bought this bike (a specialized). I had only been riding about 15 miles when my neck started hurting me so bad that I remember thinking that I would not lift up my head anymore to look where I was going. If something was in the bike lane I would just have to crash into it. Obviously if I had kept riding this bike I wouldn't have become the rider I am now. Most women have bought a bike in the past and then thought "riding a bicycle hurts" and so they decided to do aerobics, running, swimming or whatever else instead. Why bother? I ended up buying a Terry and was amazed at the pain free ride. I never knew that I should expect to ride pain free.

While makers are now starting to realize that they have been missing out on a huge market, I'm afraid that for the most part bike shop owners and employees still pooh-pooh the idea and think there is no difference and that it's just a marketing gimmick. They rarely stock all sizes of WSD (if any at all) and have no idea of what the real differences in geometry are. The dealer that sold me my Orbea thinks it has a shorter top tube - it doesn't - the head and seat angles are different. I can't imagine him trying to sell a Diva to a walk in. I was interested in a Merlin but was told that I would have to pay for it sight unseen. Same with the Trek Madone WSD - they measured me and told me which size I'd have to order without ever getting on a bike. That's ridiculous. These makers are trying so hard to reach this market but I would say need to do a much better job at educating their dealers about the differences and offering incentives to get them to place them on their floor which is, I understand, a limited space.

As the market grows I think will see less of the appalling pink Contessa-type marketing gimmicks. They are clearly doing this marketing for a reason. My guess is that most high-end sales are gift-type sales. Most Contessa's will be gathering dust in garages.

Orbit: Was that price just for the frame? I had contacted an Oz shop looking for a Zeus stem and was shocked at the favorable exchange rate you all have over there compared to the American dollar so it could be you will save some money. Let me know how it goes. There is a bronze Orca at my local shop. It's pretty slick.

There is, without any doubt, no difference between men and women when it comes to leg and torso length. If you were to take a woman who is 5-8, and a man who is 5-8 (or whatever height you choose), they would, on average, have identical leg and torso lengths (and, yes, right down to the femur length - 46% of entire leg length each). There is no argument here, the anthropometric statisics have been kept for decades and are quite clear. However, if you take that same man and woman, you find approx 1 1/2" of reach difference, with the woman coming up shorter. It's all in the arms and hands, which makes a difference. This is why wsd tri bikes are completely un-necessary, as the tri-optimized position, for the most part, takes arm reach out of the equation. Other industries make good use of the information, and are the major statistic gatherers, as a matter of fact - from kitchens to cars, they understand the differences and design accordingly. Cycling, being a fairly small industry in the big scheme of things, has it completely wrong when it comes to the differences between men and women. It amazes me that the long leg, short torso myth continues to be trodded out as fact by manufacturers.

I completely agree that most shops are clueless when it comes to fitting women, or anyone with a short reach for that matter, to bikes that place them in an appropriate and efficient position. In fact, I would say it's been retailers who've held the women's market back more than the manufactuers. When I was designing my store, we provided about 500 sq ft just for women's clothing and accessories. Every single shop owner in the area told me it was a mistake. Now they're all copying us. We keep approx 15-20 wsd bikes on the floor at any given time, but most retailers are unwilling to devote the monetary resources necessary for that kind of inventory because the bikes sell more slowly, or not at all during the off-season. To be honest, few of the bikes on my sales floor have retail values aboue $1500 because the demand is simply not there - the market is still maturing. Sure, there are women who purchase high-end bikes, I sold a wonderful lady an $8K Colnago today, but she's not the ordinary woman who comes into the store. Most are purchasing their first or second bikes.

Buying site unseen if tough - I hear ya on that one. You need to test ride before you buy, but I realize there are limited options. Terry bicycles offers a money back guarantee even on custom builds. Give your business to companies that truly support women's cycling. Your "Contessa" line, whether intentional or not (I suspect it was) was right on the mark, that manufacturer is just trying to pull a fast one on the consumer.

As for color, it's a completely no-win situation. This forum is by no means an example of the overall women's market, but if you want to talk about the high-end customer, let's talk about professionals. When professional female cyclists, or triathletes as a better example, get to pick colors, they often pick pink or purple. Think Michele Jones. Then again, I think any manufacturer who employs professional cyclists to help design product is making a huge mistake - they don't even represent one-half of one percent of the market - they are the exception, not the norm. This is where Giant went wrong with their initial offerings. Color choices are becoming more scarce whether or not you're buying a men's or women's bike because it keeps the overall cost of manufacturing down. So, yes, manufacturers should stop painting bikes in pastels because it turns more women off rather than attracting them to the bikes.

This discussion should not just be limited to frames. The average reach difference between men and women cannot be made up by frames alone - it must be a combination of frames and components. Correctly designed components are just as much of this story, but tend to be ignored. I actually spend more time discussing components with the manufactuers who seek my advice over frame design. Once a manufacturer gets the frame design thing, that discussion is over, but component choice drives me crazy. It truly boggles the mind sometimes. Then again, that's why I love the women's market - being smarter shoppers, women are less impressed with the level of components, and are more concerned with functionality and value. That's where women can make a difference, because they demand more for their money. Un-impressed by the lightest this, or the latest that, women recognize when a product is worth their attention, and purchase accordingly. We men fall for just about anything new.

A Dura Ace with Mavic SL or with Campy Chorus and Mavic Elite are each priced in Australia at $US7,182.00.

janetaylor - I understand you've had a looong wait for your DIVA. Strangely the importer here in Sydney said they have deliveries from both Spain and the US every 2 weeks thus to get me whatever colour I wanted from the Spain range would only take that long.

It's not a problem with deliveries. Orbea has released the colors one at a time. I got my blue bike from the first batch they painted.

jm3: I wouldn't buy from you.

Chas, please pass this up the food chain at Look. If the only color you offer for a Women's specific bike is pink, you will not get my business. I refuse to ride a pink bike.

Also, I am intrigued by the prospect of a women's specific Look. My impression of some of the carbon frames I've ridden is that they have a lot of road noise and I am hoping that your lugged frames are quieter.


I sent this to Orbit in a PM conversation yesterday, but thought you would be interested as well:

"Because we haven't finalized all of the details yet, it is too early to make any promises about our '08 line, but if things proceed as planned we will have a "women's specific geometry" frame at the 585 level, probably in the "Elle" color option (currently light blue and white). This frame will have a slightly shorter toptube and a slightly higher headtube. This frame will most likely be available in at least one other color from our "origin" line (white, carbon, or ???)."

As far as road noise goes, it can vary quite a bit depending on bike set-up (chain and cable lengths, bar/stem combo, wheels/tires) and road conditions, but I would say that our bikes are fairly quiet. I probably couldn't sneak up on people in complete silence the way I can on my steel fixie, but they certainly don't make enough noise to drown out any of the crap-talking that takes place on our office lunch rides :D

I have not been able to test ride a Look because the bike shops in my area do not stock them in my size.
Where do you live and what size frame do you ride?

Regards,
chas@LookUSA

Where do you live and what size frame do you ride?

Regards,
chas@LookUSA
I am in the Los Angeles area. I ride a 49 standard, a size 48 compact. Current top tube = 51.8. I could use a shorter top tube. And thanks for the awesome color choices. :)

I don't think there is a wrong and right. It is true that there are a lot of novice, mini-van driving women who love pink and want to sit up as straight as possible on a bike. Then there are more serious women riders who want to go as fast as possible in a more traditional racing position. Orbeas are definitely built for the latter which I appreciate.

There are very few runners with pink running shoes. There are very few drivers driving pink cars. If there was a true cross section of women buying bikes there would be more choices. Unfortunately for the industry the majority of athletic women don't cycle so the industry is selling to non-athletic women in greater percentages then say, industries that cater to runners. I think a lot of non-athletes also consider bikes to be a child's toy so they get a retro feeling when they shop.

If the industry continues the trend towards women's geometry and the shops finally buy into it there will be more choices in the future.

I am in the Los Angeles area. I ride a 49 standard, a size 48 compact. Current top tube = 51.8. I could use a shorter top tube. And thanks for the awesome color choices. :)


Hi il sogno,

On April 1st I will be at Bicycle John's in Burbank*** for a demo day. We have a 49cm 585 you could try if you're interested. Although the top tube on our current 49cm may be a smidge long for you at 52cm, a test ride would still give you a pretty good feel for how the bike will ride.

Hope to see you there,
chas@LookUSA

***EDIT*** The April 1st demo will be held at Bicycle John's Acton location, not their Burbank store. The address is: 33330 Santiago Road
Acton, California

A few more observations on pink:

Terry has been selling only middle to low end women specific bicycles for years longer than any other company. They don't make pink bikes and they sell over 10,000 a year.

If you look at the lunacycles.com (a company that makes custom steel bikes only for women) photo gallery of bikes there are two pink bikes and 21 non-pink bikes- this is a company that let's you name any color.

This blurb just showed up on the Orbea site. Makes me wonder if they've been reading this forum:

It wasn’t too long ago (2000 to be exact), when a woman who wanted a performance road bike had few options. Sure, there were women’s bikes out there, but they were designed for a different type of rider. The go-fast girl - the one with a steely glint in her eye, who liked making people hurt on group rides - she had no place to turn for a real racing bike. It is for this woman that we designed the Dama geometry bicycles in 2001.

I was supposed to pick up my new Diva today but I was just told it won't be ready until tomorrow:cryin:

This blurb just showed up on the Orbea site. Makes me wonder if they've been reading this forum:

It wasn’t too long ago (2000 to be exact), when a woman who wanted a performance road bike had few options. Sure, there were women’s bikes out there, but they were designed for a different type of rider. The go-fast girl - the one with a steely glint in her eye, who liked making people hurt on group rides - she had no place to turn for a real racing bike. It is for this woman that we designed the Dama geometry bicycles in 2001.

I was supposed to pick up my new Diva today but I was just told it won't be ready until tomorrow:cryin:

Well done to them if they are reading this forum.

I just had a look at the Orbea USA site and noticed that the paint schemes for the USA Dama are very different to what is available here in Australia. The USA versions are soooo much slicker plus you get choice!

Here are the only options we get for the Dama and Dama Race. Shame really.

Oh my God! They're AWFUL!! My eyes actually hurt!

You should post them on the "pink" thread in this forum. I bet they'll love them :)

Have you decided whether to get a frame from bellatisport?

Hi il sogno,

On April 1st I will be at Bicycle John's in Burbank for a demo day. We have a 49cm 585 you could try if you're interested. Although the top tube on our current 49cm may be a smidge long for you at 52cm, a test ride would still give you a pretty good feel for how the bike will ride.

Hope to see you there,
chas@LookUSA
Thank you, chas. I will mark my calendar.

Oh my God! They're AWFUL!! My eyes actually hurt!

You should post them on the "pink" thread in this forum. I bet they'll love them :)

Have you decided whether to get a frame from bellatisport?

Thanks for the suggestion, but sadly never had a reply to my enquiry email from bellatisport. The complete Diva was out of my price range so have gone with the Colnago.

I finally got my new Diva. I posted picks in the Orbea forum. Il Sogno: I think the Diva you rode was set up wrong - my Diva is silent. Do you think you were hearing cable rattle against the frame? My LBS put some little rubber discs on the cable to prevent that. I'm not really sure what you mean by road noise but there is no clatter or rattle at all. It climbs like a dream. I'm absolutely in love.

I finally got my new Diva. I posted picks in the Orbea forum. Il Sogno: I think the Diva you rode was set up wrong - my Diva is silent. Do you think you were hearing cable rattle against the frame? My LBS put some little rubber discs on the cable to prevent that. I'm not really sure what you mean by road noise but there is no clatter or rattle at all. It climbs like a dream. I'm absolutely in love.
It sounded like road noise reverberating through the tubes. Typical monocoque frame noise. Write up a review and post a thread here in WCF+. :)

I'm not hearing anything like that. It's quiet as a mouse.