Very Long Q&A about frames [Archive]

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 04:50 AM

Very Long Q&A about Frames -- thanks for looking.

Decades ago I used to sell lots of frames. Many were custom such as Mercian, Gordon, Sachs, etc. Many were high-end euro like Colnago, Masi, Viner, Gios. Each of these was chased, faced, and built up in my shops.

Then the business changed for many reasons; the greatest of which was ATBs.

In the recent past, I have totally underestimated the frame market. This is mainly due to deals we get on total package bikes and my history for building up all frames before sale. I never thought so many people would want to buy just frames. I am now in the process of greatly increasing what we offer in frames and doing the market research.

High-end frames today come mostly from Taiwan. Some nice carbon fiber frames are made in China and then shipped to Taiwan or Italy for finish out. I prefer for now to bring frames from Taiwan only.

Any Taiwan supplier that carries USA based product liability would be a good source. I do like the standard industry frame shops like:

Kinesis {Trek, Felt, Kona, Specialized, Motobecane, Bianchi, Scott, Fuji, etc}
A-Pro {Fuji, Haro, Specialized, Windsor, Jamis, Raleigh, etc}
Sunrise {Trek, Giant, Fuji, Motobecane, etc}
Maxway {if anyone wants steel – Bianchi, Mercier, Fuji, Specialized, etc}

On carbon fiber the experienced experts at Advanced, ADK, Martec, and Topkey seem like the safe picks for companies like us, Trek, Felt, Specialized, Fuji, Look, Scott, etc.

Luckily and logically; Asia factories only sell one grade of construction – excellent. There is no Asia frame maker with different price levels based on quality or care taken.

I have several questions about frames that customers would like to see; and I will really appreciate any constructive input.

Type – which style would you be most interested in getting in an aggressively priced frame? Track, ATB single, Road racing, Touring, TT, TRI, ATB hardtail, Full suspension all mountain, ultra lite XC, Cyclo cross, ATB 29er?

Material – I can buy full aluminum, aluminum w/ RR SS, high grade steel, full carbon fiber, and Ti [but Ti seems low demand right now].
What material would you like to see in an aggressively priced frame?
Do you prefer name brand tubing? Like Airplane vs U6 – At what extra cost?

Sizes – Any special sizing you have found hard to get?

Warranty – Everything I sell as a full bike has a full lifetime warranty. With frames there can be an option. Of course, delivery as represented is guaranteed. Defects are rare on high grade frames; so if the price is less without – some may prefer no warranty. Others may prefer a 3, 5, or lifetime defect warranty. Opinions?

Decals – some customers seem to like buying frames without logos. In most cases this means little or no warranty. However, especially on track and cyclo cross there seems to be a trend to unmarked frames. Do you like with or without logos?

Colors -- We have a thousand colors to pick from. What do you like? Like solids or fades or extreme? Polished on Aluminum? Natural on Carbon Fiber? {here I should state some CF frames require paint to cover ‘issues’ and some aluminum frames with CF stays require decal bands over CF/AL joints – I will not spec or bring a frame like that. Any frame I bring must look good raw or natural finish}
We are seeing a lot of demand for ‘matt’ finishes also. Like that?
Finish related – smooth welds on AL adds $10 – Like it? Hate it? Don’t Care?

Names and Numbers – If you like decals, do your prefer model names or numbers? Some of my favorite cars have numbers and some have names. All my favorite motorcycles have names except one is a number. What do you like in model names?

Frames VS Framesets: On many bikes the frame is the third most expensive OEM item after wheels and fork. This is not true on full carbon fiber road or on most dual suspension; but on other bikes it is common. So bringing a frame with the approximate fork can greatly increase cost and selling price. Advantage is: I would always bring framesets with nice headset installed – better for shipping and better value.
Would you prefer frame only or frameset?
IF frameset:
On road CF fork do you prefer aluminum ST or CF? Remember full CF is much more.
On ATB fork – Lock-out? Motion Control? U-Turn? Travel?
DS frames would always come with rear shock – with lockout. Favorites?

We have sold several hundred frames in the last year just checking out the market. It appears the ebay market is 400 frames a month and other online is about 600 / month {all sellers combined market of 12,000 frames a year}. I would like to become a major player here and would appreciate any constructive feedback that I can get from enthusiasts here on the forums.

Thanks for your interest

mike

indygreg

11-13-2006, 05:55 AM

I am a recent buyer of a bike from Mike (it comes in on Wednedsay) - just to get the obvious shill status out of the way first.:D

I want to comment on this thread for sure!
The bike I got, while I think is an outstanding deal and will be a great frame (I will be posting good and bads in my other thread) . . . I find the frame to be very boring in how it looks and I do not care for the decals.

I look at leader's 736r and all I can say is WOW. Great looking, great colors, very good graphics if you ask me. Additionally, I like the shape of the frame - not the very traditional road bike. I have no history in road biking, so take that for what it is worth. I like thicker tubing, but my eyes are used to MTB. Thin steel (no alum) frame look terrible to me, but I know so many adore them.

I like colors, even black. My least fav is silver (which I just bought - :D ) as so much of the rest of the bike is silver/grey/chrome. On the bike I got, I would prefer the decals be on top of the clear coat so I can remove them. On that Leader, I would prefer them under to keep them in good shape. I tend to put a lot of stickers on things, so I will make my vanilla frame look better in no time.

Carbon - I can go either way. I like the Immortal frame you have (and want you to sell it as a frame only) in black (which shows Carbon) and LOVE it in the pearl white (does not show).
I like some Giant carbon frames with 'window's of the carbon.
I think Trek's new alliance frame (alum and carbon that sort of 'melts' together is a great looking frame.

Bottom line is that I like less traditional stuff, but that may not be the core of your potential customers.

LyncStar

11-13-2006, 09:15 AM

If it is not a USA made steel frame and fork I am highly unlikely to buy it any more (things were different when I was young).

I second that and add other frame materials as well. Not that Asian folk don't need jobs, but I'm much more inclined to support the local guy/gal.

Now, that said, for me, quality is the number one issue and a source of confusion when price is mixed in. It seems pricing on carbon fiber is all over the place. By way of example, a specialized s works roubaix frame is $2500 give or take, while a fully built non-sworks roubaix cf bike is $1500. This makes no sense to me.

How will the consumer know what she/he is getting from you given your assertion that all Taiwan factories build "excellent" frames? do they all use the same material? What will i "lose" purchasing a ti frame from Taiwan via you as opposed to buying a moots frame? I assume geometry will be easily copied. Will the welds not look as pretty ( if they function the same do I give a shiite?)? Given my first statement I clearly will lose the intangible of supporting the local guy, but beyond that, what??

terry b

11-13-2006, 09:30 AM

Dave Hickey

11-13-2006, 09:37 AM

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 10:01 AM

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 10:07 AM

If it is not a USA made steel frame and fork I am highly unlikely to buy it any more (things were different when I was young).

MB1 - I understand what you are saying and have the bike in my mind's eye. However, mine has English tubing and lugs.

This is not where the market has moved. And in my case I do not care about country of origin other than as it relates to quality. {I have an entire Adam Smith based logic on this; but I have been warned that discussing public policy here is a bad idea.}

thanks for your comment
mike

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 10:14 AM

I second that and add other frame materials as well. Not that Asian folk don't need jobs, but I'm much more inclined to support the local guy/gal.

Now, that said, for me, quality is the number one issue and a source of confusion when price is mixed in. It seems pricing on carbon fiber is all over the place. By way of example, a specialized s works roubaix frame is $2500 give or take, while a fully built non-sworks roubaix cf bike is $1500. This makes no sense to me.

How will the consumer know what she/he is getting from you given your assertion that all Taiwan factories build "excellent" frames? do they all use the same material? What will i "lose" purchasing a ti frame from Taiwan via you as opposed to buying a moots frame? I assume geometry will be easily copied. Will the welds not look as pretty ( if they function the same do I give a shiite?)? Given my first statement I clearly will lose the intangible of supporting the local guy, but beyond that, what??

Ti frames I know little about. I have never sold or imported them. I would not make any statement about them - like Taiwan Ti vs Moots is X.

However, I do know steel frames and aluminum frames. And there is zero quality differences in construction on frames made by say "Kinesis" for Trek vs Fuji vs Motobecane vs Specialized vs whoever. Tubing spec is another question; but generally everyone uses the same Taiwan tubing and puts different labels on it.

In carbon fiber the quality within factories is the same; between factories I am not as sure. That is why I stick with the well known experts for now over saving a few bucks with the 'newbies'.

thanks for the input

mike

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 10:27 AM

Type – which style would you be most interested in getting in an aggressively priced frame? In my case, more than likely I'd be shopping for SS/Fixed frames with horizontal dropouts. I like playing with these bikes and I am not motivated to buy a top shelf custom or US maker. Too expensive for what is a fool-around item for me. E.g. - currently riding a Soma I'm looking to replace. I doubt I would consider a geared roadbike frame in any material, ditto an MTB frame. Might be willing to consider a cross bike, again mainly because it's something I might play with.

What material would you like to see in an aggressively priced frame? Steel, titanium or CF, depending on the price.

Do you prefer name brand tubing? Always nice to know, but at a low price - who cares?

Sizes Not for me.

Warranty Could care less about warranties. If I'm going to buy a $250 frame, I expect to get a year or so out of it, not much more. A well-built steel frame pretty much has an implied warranty for me - I'm not hard on my gear, so it should last forever.

Decals I don't like blank frames. Some cool decal program (cheap) where you could call the bike whatever you want to call it might be fun.

Colors Solids for me on any material. Natural for CF is nice. Matte is really nice, especially matte colors other than black. Smooth welds impart the impression that the welder gave a rip about his art. Probably worth $10 to me.

Names and Numbers Don't care at all about model names. My favorite bikes are my customs - no model names.

Frames VS Framesets: Frames. I'm not a customer for a complete bike. I'd prefer no headset, a CF fork should be 100% CF, don't care about any of the other stuff you listed.

Terry

Thanks for all the details

Mareial - can be any you named; and i will not do it unless the price is great to fantastic

Brand name tubing -- let's take basic steel reynolds 520 -- $20 more for the exact frame to get the sticker {520 is made in Taiwan] -- worth it? Aluminum 2.5lb U6 tubing vs 2.5lb Columbus - extra $50 - worth it?

Warranty - surprising - posted this on bikeforums -- everyone said Yes to warranty. And you do not care. I think overall I prefer to give a warranty even with a little extra cost. So many people feel better with it.

Decals - I am with you; I do not like blank frames. That said we get so many requests for bikes without decals [especially track and cyclo cross]

Names - funny you should mention customs; we used to do lots with TT that said "Built for john smith". Not actually John Smith, but you see what I mean.

Frames vs Framesets - I like selling just frames. Gives us a shot at sending customer to bikeisland for a fork or headset. But sometimes the customers gets a deal with a package. Full CF forks are much niccer; I am looking for a sub 400g that can be a good price too.

Thanks for the info
mike

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 10:37 AM

my $.03...

There is a glut of generic aluminum frames and it would be very hard to differenciate an "off brand" frame from any other...

Carbon- There is strong demand right now and you can't go wrong selling an inexpensive carbon frameset.. People will buy them

Steel- I'm talking mostly about the fixed gear market but I think there is demand for a lugged steel fixed gear frameset. You can buy a TIG welded fixed frameset from many companies for around $200-300. If you wanted to differenciate yourself from everyone else, sell a lugged frame at a good price point...

Dave
thanks

you are right there are a lot of generic AL frames; to be better I would need to
1 - be cheaper
2 - give a better warranty
3 - use a know builder with their sticker - Like Kinesis -- many customers know Kinesis builds really nice stuff
and/or 4 -- assure full backup with hangers etc

Steel - Lugs are an issue in Taiwan. No one wants to do it. Lugs at different angles are hard to come by and expensive. Plus real good builders at places like UEC and Maxway will flat tell you they think it makes no sense. Too bad as I love lugs like most old guys.
I can get tig steel at great prices however. And there does seem to be a lot more interest in steel. Maybe it is making a comeback.

Carbon - I think you are correct sir. No brianer - people want it; know the story of 'factories' and would like an inexpensive one to try out. We will have Immortals soon. Then we can add less expensive ones later.

thanks for the insight

mike

Dave Hickey

11-13-2006, 10:49 AM

Dave
thanks

Steel - Lugs are an issue in Taiwan. No one wants to do it. Lugs at different angles are hard to come by and expensive. Plus real good builders at places like UEC and Maxway will flat tell you they think it makes no sense. Too bad as I love lugs like most old guys.
I can get tig steel at great prices however. And there does seem to be a lot more interest in steel. Maybe it is making a comeback.

mike

I find it interesting that nobody want to build lugged frames in Taiwan. Most, it not all, the quality lugs produced today are made there.....

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 10:54 AM

If you take the Surly business model where they are "hip and cool urban" while sourcing a USA made frame you could get a lot of their market. I'm thinking they really low key about where their frames are made while trying to look like a small USA company and actually being one of the largest importers.

Heck, you could even do what Surly does and mostly just copy Rivendells designs (oops, did I just say that???).

BTW the Kelly name is available.........

MB1 - good idea; but I am unsure I am up to being 'hip and cool urban'. I am more bare foot in the 'sand jimmy buffet'. My entire wardrobe is shorts, Hawiann shirts and flip flobs.

That aside I do not know if you are suggesting the bring it in and 're-source' as made here routine. Sure the rules are lose and you see items marked 'Made in USA' all the time that were barely touched after unloading from the asia container ship in long beach. But I will not being doing that.

The urban cool market is interesting however. I think we get a lot with track bikes and believe it or not with the retro touring / commuter the Galaxy -- so old fashioned it is now cool again [according to our customers and we sell out of it several times a year]

http://www.cyclesmercier.com/big_galaxy.html

New ATB singles are on fire too. i will get that soon.

But is this an area for frame buyers? Don't these need to be complete bikes?

thanks for the advise; I have a couple of 'hip' types and I'll ask them to look into it

mike

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 10:59 AM

I find it interesting that nobody want to build lugged frames in Taiwan. Most, it not all, the quality lugs produced today are made there.....

It is strange -- but I think lots of quality lugs are actually made in Japan.
Anyway, Do you think that if the bike is lugged and high grade steel
customers will accept it at a reasonable price?

Our 853 full bikes sells well when we have it; but a lugged 853 frame would be more than a full carbon monoque -- would customers go for 853 over carbon in your opinion?

thanks
mike

Dave Hickey

11-13-2006, 11:05 AM

It is strange -- but I think lots of quality lugs are actually made in Japan.
Anyway, Do you think that if the bike is lugged and high grade steel
customers will accept it at a reasonable price?

Our 853 full bikes sells well when we have it; but a lugged 853 frame would be more than a full carbon monoque -- would customers go for 853 over carbon in your opinion?

thanks
mike

I'm probably the wrong person to ask about steel vs carbon. I was riding carbon bikes over years ago. My oldest carbon bike was made in 1988. I've come full circle and now I'm back to steel..I prefer the looks and ride of steel...I'd buy an 853 but I cannot speak for everyone

euro-trash

11-13-2006, 11:05 AM

Dave
thanks

you are right there are a lot of generic AL frames; to be better I would need to
1 - be cheaper
2 - give a better warranty
3 - use a know builder with their sticker - Like Kinesis -- many customers know Kinesis builds really nice stuff
and/or 4 -- assure full backup with hangers etc

Steel - Lugs are an issue in Taiwan. No one wants to do it. Lugs at different angles are hard to come by and expensive. Plus real good builders at places like UEC and Maxway will flat tell you they think it makes no sense. Too bad as I love lugs like most old guys.
I can get tig steel at great prices however. And there does seem to be a lot more interest in steel. Maybe it is making a comeback.

Carbon - I think you are correct sir. No brianer - people want it; know the story of 'factories' and would like an inexpensive one to try out. We will have Immortals soon. Then we can add less expensive ones later.

thanks for the insight

mike

Definately you need to show support for your AL bikes by selling hangers on your website. That shows "I'm in it for the long haul".

Steel: bummer about the lack of builders interested in lugs.
I think there is a market for tig'ed steel, but it needs to be done right. Gunnar would be the model I guess. Use good steel and neutral 'classic' paint jobs.

I'm not sure there is a market for 4130 road bikes (though I think there is a market for 4130 roadbike geometry, track drop-out, fixed gears with 2 brake holes and a water bottle mounts).
For a steel road frame, I'd say OX Platinum or similar with a carbon fork with neutral geometry (73 ish angles and a TT similar in length the the seat tube) in the $650-$700 range.

Carbon: the Leader carbon would be the model to follow I guess. If you go with a quality factory, I'd really publicize that fact. Put on your website, same factory that produces x, y, and Z frames.

5 year warranty is adequate for all of the above.

Sponsorship: I think you'd need to get a few regional teams on your new bikes to show that they aren't junk. You don't need Healthnet, but if you can have some Cat 1-3s riding them, then people will see them as legitimate options.

alienator

11-13-2006, 11:06 AM

I'd like a filet-brazed carbon fibre frame with super ultra lite magnesium dropouts welded to a full unidirectional plasmatic rear end. The fork will need to be made of blown billet beryllium because it will need a very low coefficient of thermal expansion since I go so very fast and generate so much heat. And all the bike bits will need to employ new Carbon Reinforced Angstrom Polymorphic (CRAP) fibers to achieve really low weight and ultra high strength, as well as rocket like acceleration and Kreskin-quick maneuverability.

terry b

11-13-2006, 11:18 AM

Brand name tubing -- let's take basic steel reynolds 520 -- $20 more for the exact frame to get the sticker {520 is made in Taiwan] -- worth it? Aluminum 2.5lb U6 tubing vs 2.5lb Columbus - extra $50 - worth it? Probably not worth it.

Warranty - surprising - posted this on bikeforums -- everyone said Yes to warranty. And you do not care. I think overall I prefer to give a warranty even with a little extra cost. So many people feel better with it. I think the bikeforums.net crowd is different than this bunch - far more people there shop off the shelf from stores whereas you get a larger number of people here willing to take some risk (customs, frame only.) Personally I think most warranties are a joke - frames are built well enough these days that the traditional "mfgrs defects in parts and materials" coverage is useless. As a businessman though, you're smart to offer one. 99.99% of the time you're not going to see a claim and yet it panders to the typical english speaking consumer who thinks they're getting something. If you count up all the stories here on RBR over the 8 or more years since it was part of MTBR.com, I'll bet there are not more than a dozen stories of a frame warranty being claimed. I own 19 bikes and I've ridden 40,000+ miles since I started keeping track and I've never had warranty service on anything associated with a bike.

terry b

11-13-2006, 11:22 AM

alienator

11-13-2006, 11:28 AM

Don't you have a century to practice for?

Yeah, that used to be the case, but the man that prescribes my narcotics and muscle relaxants says there ain't no 1.09 Century that I'll participicificating in this weekend. He did say, though, that it's ok for me to watch that new "Nuns gone wet, wild, and wicked" video that I bought.

alienator

11-13-2006, 11:34 AM

If all else fails maybe Mike will hire you to write ad copy.

Damned straight! I could single handedly redefine what marketing means. I think I'd model myself after Nick Naylor in "Thank You for Smoking."

crumjack

11-13-2006, 11:44 AM

physasst

11-13-2006, 01:27 PM

to agree with MB1, personally, I have two aluminum bikes, and probably won't ever buy another one, but I do like steel, if you could provide American Made steel framesets for reasonable money, then I might be interested...

terry b

11-13-2006, 02:06 PM

Yeah, that used to be the case, but the man that prescribes my narcotics and muscle relaxants says there ain't no 1.09 Century that I'll participicificating in this weekend. He did say, though, that it's ok for me to watch that new "Nuns gone wet, wild, and wicked" video that I bought.

You're bagging it?

I did a 1.0955 century this past Saturday. One the missile range. The last .10 century was all uphill into a headwind on a newly chip sealed road designed to keep the traffic slow. Everything they said about lugged steel bike being magic carpets went right out the window.

SDizzle

11-13-2006, 02:16 PM

If it is not a USA made steel frame and fork I am highly unlikely to buy it any more (things were different when I was young).

Here here! Err...I am still young, but I feel the same way. I'd probably add lugs to the equation.

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 02:48 PM

How about a cheap 29er frame? My friend at the LBS keeps gushing over how great they are but I don't ride a MTB enough to justify laying out $1k or more for one. That said, I would spend a couple hundred dollars for frame to mess with.

It does seem to be the rage

We do have a SS 29er coming in spring [very different with flip flob hub]

But for geared it will probably be 2008 models and if bringing frame - I think I would need to include fork

TY
mike

il sogno

11-13-2006, 03:12 PM

Single speed/fixie for me. Horizontal dropouts, steel. Colors? I don't ask for much. The basic hues. Warranty - 3 yr would be fine. You did not mention wheels. I ride tubulars so it would be nice if I could get an off the shelf (or website) bike outfitted this way.

I take a size 49.

Dave Hickey

11-13-2006, 03:34 PM

Decals. I visit a lot of fixed gear forums and when someone posts a review about a budget fixed frame one of the first questions asked is are the decals place over or under the clear coat. Being able to take off the decals is important to a lot of people who ride fixed

colker1

11-13-2006, 05:22 PM

if i were in your shoes i would sell a RS (road sport geometry) road bike rather than all out race bike. something like the surly roadie. 41.5 CS. 75 BB drop long reach brakes.. a commuter bike! too many race bikes out there.. do it w/ 853 or platinum. low weight is a plus on that bike. a lugged flat crown steel fork would bring major coolness to it. colors would be red yellow or green.
i would sell a fixed gear. those don't need ultra lightweight tubesets cause the lack of gear makes it already. use a double butted tubeset similar to 531 and paint it black. have a steel fork on it. i would like to use the bike and not worry about anything breaking, chipping whatever. it would long reach brakes so i could use fatter tires.
a CX bike. but make it w/ euro geometry: tighter, steeper than US cxers that want to be semitourers. make it light and invest in a team. give them support. this frame don't need to be ultra cheap. make it light. this one could be aluminum and have a nice paint job..something that contrasts w/ mud.
sell a 29er. tight and quick handling but lighter than the surly karate monkey. geared. vbrake and disc compatible.
sell a rigid 26in steel fork in susp. correct 1 1/8in headset and non correct 1in. make it w/ double butted tubes. make it straight like a kona p2. sell a rigid 29er fork.. NON SUSP CORRECTED. there is nothing liike it on the market. 29ers can ride w/ no susp. be the first w/ a moderately priced 29er frame and fork that rides lower than the skyscrappers being sold.

ru1-2cycle

11-13-2006, 05:26 PM

Mr. Mike:
What is your opinion and/or insight about the Tommaso and the Botecchia brands? I know that the Tommaso is still a gorgeous pick, regardless of where it was built. Why don't you sell them too, especially at those great hard to match bargain prices you consistently offer?! Thank you for your time and opinion.Very Long Q&A about Frames -- thanks for looking.

Decades ago I used to sell lots of frames. Many were custom such as Mercian, Gordon, Sachs, etc. Many were high-end euro like Colnago, Masi, Viner, Gios. Each of these was chased, faced, and built up in my shops.

Then the business changed for many reasons; the greatest of which was ATBs.

In the recent past, I have totally underestimated the frame market. This is mainly due to deals we get on total package bikes and my history for building up all frames before sale. I never thought so many people would want to buy just frames. I am now in the process of greatly increasing what we offer in frames and doing the market research.

High-end frames today come mostly from Taiwan. Some nice carbon fiber frames are made in China and then shipped to Taiwan or Italy for finish out. I prefer for now to bring frames from Taiwan only.

Any Taiwan supplier that carries USA based product liability would be a good source. I do like the standard industry frame shops like:

Kinesis {Trek, Felt, Kona, Specialized, Motobecane, Bianchi, Scott, Fuji, etc}
A-Pro {Fuji, Haro, Specialized, Windsor, Jamis, Raleigh, etc}
Sunrise {Trek, Giant, Fuji, Motobecane, etc}
Maxway {if anyone wants steel – Bianchi, Mercier, Fuji, Specialized, etc}

On carbon fiber the experienced experts at Advanced, ADK, Martec, and Topkey seem like the safe picks for companies like us, Trek, Felt, Specialized, Fuji, Look, Scott, etc.

Luckily and logically; Asia factories only sell one grade of construction – excellent. There is no Asia frame maker with different price levels based on quality or care taken.

I have several questions about frames that customers would like to see; and I will really appreciate any constructive input.

Type – which style would you be most interested in getting in an aggressively priced frame? Track, ATB single, Road racing, Touring, TT, TRI, ATB hardtail, Full suspension all mountain, ultra lite XC, Cyclo cross, ATB 29er?

Material – I can buy full aluminum, aluminum w/ RR SS, high grade steel, full carbon fiber, and Ti [but Ti seems low demand right now].
What material would you like to see in an aggressively priced frame?
Do you prefer name brand tubing? Like Airplane vs U6 – At what extra cost?

Sizes – Any special sizing you have found hard to get?

Warranty – Everything I sell as a full bike has a full lifetime warranty. With frames there can be an option. Of course, delivery as represented is guaranteed. Defects are rare on high grade frames; so if the price is less without – some may prefer no warranty. Others may prefer a 3, 5, or lifetime defect warranty. Opinions?

Decals – some customers seem to like buying frames without logos. In most cases this means little or no warranty. However, especially on track and cyclo cross there seems to be a trend to unmarked frames. Do you like with or without logos?

Colors -- We have a thousand colors to pick from. What do you like? Like solids or fades or extreme? Polished on Aluminum? Natural on Carbon Fiber? {here I should state some CF frames require paint to cover ‘issues’ and some aluminum frames with CF stays require decal bands over CF/AL joints – I will not spec or bring a frame like that. Any frame I bring must look good raw or natural finish}
We are seeing a lot of demand for ‘matt’ finishes also. Like that?
Finish related – smooth welds on AL adds $10 – Like it? Hate it? Don’t Care?

Names and Numbers – If you like decals, do your prefer model names or numbers? Some of my favorite cars have numbers and some have names. All my favorite motorcycles have names except one is a number. What do you like in model names?

Frames VS Framesets: On many bikes the frame is the third most expensive OEM item after wheels and fork. This is not true on full carbon fiber road or on most dual suspension; but on other bikes it is common. So bringing a frame with the approximate fork can greatly increase cost and selling price. Advantage is: I would always bring framesets with nice headset installed – better for shipping and better value.
Would you prefer frame only or frameset?
IF frameset:
On road CF fork do you prefer aluminum ST or CF? Remember full CF is much more.
On ATB fork – Lock-out? Motion Control? U-Turn? Travel?
DS frames would always come with rear shock – with lockout. Favorites?

We have sold several hundred frames in the last year just checking out the market. It appears the ebay market is 400 frames a month and other online is about 600 / month {all sellers combined market of 12,000 frames a year}. I would like to become a major player here and would appreciate any constructive feedback that I can get from enthusiasts here on the forums.

Thanks for your interest

mike

JayTee

11-13-2006, 07:20 PM

I'm sorry. Let me be sure I understand this. You are asking a rep of Bikes Direct why he doesn't sell other companies' bikes? Are you going to send an email to GM and ask why they sell Cadillac and Chevrolet but not Toyota? I'm baffled.

Fivethumbs

11-13-2006, 11:28 PM

I think if you ask 10 people what they like in a road bike, you're likely to get 10 different answers, depending on their age and biking background. You probably need to figure out who your customer base is and stock what they want. Is your typical customer a dedicated roadie with multiple centuries under his/her belt or a relative newbie who doesn't know who Dave Stohler is and doesn't care? Or is it someone in between? Is someone who owned an original Masi, Bottecchia, Tommaso, Motobecane, etc. going to buy today's version of those classic road bikes?

I think the majority of people today start with an MTB because they look more comfortable to ride and it's what you see most casual bikers riding around town. I think that after someone has been MTBiing for a while, they want to move into road biking but they see skinny tubes and classic ( hozontal top tube) geometry as "old" and "out dated" like something their dad would ride.

I started road biking in the mid-eighties. My first real road bike was a lugged steel Centurion Ironman. A few years later I moved up to a top of the line lugged steel Bottecchia, which I still own and probably always will. Because of this, I have more of a traditional point of view when it comes to road bikes. My most recent purchase was one of the "last 100" Merckx MX Leaders. My stable is not likely to impress anyone under the age of 30.

I personally don't like the way the Leader bikes look and would not buy one. I prefer classic road racing geometry and classic road racing colors (think Molteni orange). I don't like huge graphics with numbers. I prefer steel but I I can't see myself buying a Taiwanese steel frame when I can get one made in the U.S. for probably not a whole lot more that I would be more proud of.

A lot of people that I know who are into road biking like to own and ride a bike that is more than just a "high quality manufactured product". It's nice to have a high end bike that is admired by others. I imagine the people who own Vanillas, Sachs, Kirks, etc. would not buy a frame built by a Taiwanese "master" even if it was built and looked just as good. It wouldn't have the same "bling factor:. Having a bike with a high "bling factor" makes the bike more fun to ride, look at, talk about, etc.

To answer your questions:
I would be more likely to buy a road bike over a MTB.
If it is coming from Tiawan, I would buy carbon fiber. possibly titanium.
I like decals that are not "over the top" loud and gawdy and I prefer them to be under the clear coat.
I like solids, panels, and fades. It all depends on the color(s) and design. I like names, not numbers.
I don't like matte finish.
I would rather buy the frame set as long as I could get an appropriate fork. I'm 6'3" and weigh 235 lbs. I don't have a problem finging the right frame size (61 to 63 works fine) but I do have a concern whether a carbon fork (or frame for that matter) would be able to hanlde my weight. I rarely if ever see weight limitation information listed for carbon frames and forks.

I've seen your bikes around and the one I liked the best was a carbon fiber Motobecane in bright orange. The guy had either stripped all the original parts or just bought the frameset somewhere, because it had full Campy (couldn't tell which gruppo). As I drove by I said to myself, "I'd ride that bike."

bikesdirect

11-13-2006, 11:50 PM

bikesdirect

11-14-2006, 12:13 AM

Definately you need to show support for your AL bikes by selling hangers on your website. That shows "I'm in it for the long haul".

Steel: bummer about the lack of builders interested in lugs.
I think there is a market for tig'ed steel, but it needs to be done right. Gunnar would be the model I guess. Use good steel and neutral 'classic' paint jobs.

I'm not sure there is a market for 4130 road bikes (though I think there is a market for 4130 roadbike geometry, track drop-out, fixed gears with 2 brake holes and a water bottle mounts).
For a steel road frame, I'd say OX Platinum or similar with a carbon fork with neutral geometry (73 ish angles and a TT similar in length the the seat tube) in the $650-$700 range.

Carbon: the Leader carbon would be the model to follow I guess. If you go with a quality factory, I'd really publicize that fact. Put on your website, same factory that produces x, y, and Z frames.

5 year warranty is adequate for all of the above.

Sponsorship: I think you'd need to get a few regional teams on your new bikes to show that they aren't junk. You don't need Healthnet, but if you can have some Cat 1-3s riding them, then people will see them as legitimate options.

thanks for your input

We do stock all the AL hangers and we sell them all the time and we give away a good number also

STEEL - I posted this same question on bikeforums and the number of people asking about steel blew me away. We do a lot os steel bikes now and they do always sell out quick - especially the 853 bike. It seems there is a demand for frames.

CARBON - I think there is a lot of interest there. And since everyone knows the same tech stuff on all the frames from Asia and who makes what - it is easier for people to know the value.

Warranty: I have thought about this a lot. If I am going to sell something, it should have a warranty against defects for ever. And then the only issue is the few times you have to explain what a defect is and is not.

Sponsorship: This is a big issue out our company. Always has been. For about a 1/4 of a century I have made putting lower to normal income racers on competitive bikes a goal. I have had lots of racers start on bikes like FLYs, le Champion SL, and Nemesis, get real good, move up, and then be sponsored. Especially lately I have seen about a dozen riders buy a 20 lb FLY hardtail from us, win lots of races, and then get sponsored. Many comment to us that their new sponsored bike is heavier than there first true race bike they got from us.
I may be wrong on this, but my view has been: get the entry rider who is tight on money a great race bike deal. Keep my costs real low and provide that rider with something he can compete on within his budget.
When someone is sponsored it adds costs to everyone else's bikes and many know that the rider is on that bike because he is sponsored. Liike I said I am be wrong on this. And I need to rethink it every year.

bikesdirect

11-14-2006, 12:20 AM

acckids

11-14-2006, 03:17 AM

Mike,

I know that there is a big push for carbon fiber bikes but I think there is big market for a good quality steel frame. Most of us who are 40 yrs of age and above grew up riding steel. In my case, I went to look for a new road bike and the choices for steel were limited. I first bought a Giant OCR complete bike w/ good components and then switched to a Gunnar Roadie frame about a year later. After wearing out that bike, I went shopping again and bought a Trek Pilot. I like the geometry of the Pilot but miss the steel ride. I think there is a market for people switching out their aluminum frames. Before buying the Trek, I looked at the your steel bike but did not like the fade paint job and knew I would spend more money having the frame stripped and powder coated.

USA vs Taiwan? My Trek is made in Taiwan and is quality stuff and I can't knock it. The quality of work between the Roadie and a Jamis Quest I picked up on ebay is similar, Knowing what I know now, I would not spend the extra money for the Roadie. The welds are comparable and the weight difference between the Ox Platinum and 631 is about 3oz. The rides are the same.

Semi Compact Steel frame would be nice w/ a slightly sloping top tube.

I like the little decal that says "Reynolds" whether it be 853 or 631. The "Reynolds" decal carries weight with me. Again the weight difference between the 853 and 631 is minimal but I think people would pay more for the "853" decal.

One color with simple graphics. NO "Serpens 20" or "Serpen 30" on the top tube. Maybe a model with panels. I have seen a BD Mercian with a fade and the paint quality was good but tended to make the bike appear cheap. The Mercian would have looked better with a solid color.

Frame Only: For whatever reason, people are partial to certain brands of forks. I like Reynolds Ouzo but my buddies like Easton and Alpah Q. Some people like alum steerer for safety while other want full carbon so by selling the frame only you can give the consumer the choice on the fork.

Hope this helps with your informal market research.

quattrotom

11-14-2006, 07:16 AM

Mike,

I'll offer a few comments.

1. I would like another steel road frame (853 level, TIG is fine, leave lugs to those who specialize). I am not sure of the true demand. I believe the requests may be inflated on these boards because it is hard to find affordable steel frames from anyone these days. Lemond was an outlet that a lot of people used, but they seem to be closing that down and finding steel Lemonds in local shops is difficult at best.

2. As I've mentioned before, I think the collegiate ranks is an ideal target market for you. I've been racing in the Eastern Collegiate Cycling Conference on and off for over 8 years (undergrad and PhD). My old and current team have always had interested people who just don't want to shell out $1000-$1500 for a "raceable" bike with Tiagra or 105. Occasionally we convince a former runner, swimmer or rower to buy a bike and they turn out to be incredible racers who stick with the sport. Buying a bike over the internet can be daunting to people new to the sport. On the other hand, college teams have a number of mechanic types and experienced racers who can help the newbies and walk them through the process - even when the riders buy locally.

I would recommend against sponsoring any one college team. I don't think you will ever be able to convince some people to rider "internet" bikes. Possibly offer an incentive program for college teams (group discount on 2+, etc). Your bikes are being ridden in our conference, but I'd say the awareness is almost zero. Even people on my team are not really fully aware of your company.

Hope that helps.

euro-trash

11-14-2006, 11:54 AM

For your steel models, go with conservative colors and 2 panels. rip this off and your sales will be great:
http://www.omegacycleworks.com/nucleusbikepic.jpg

bikesdirect

11-15-2006, 04:17 AM

acckids

11-15-2006, 04:25 AM

I guess we will see if lugged steel bikes are in demand ............

bikesdirect

11-15-2006, 04:49 AM

For your steel models, go with conservative colors and 2 panels. rip this off and your sales will be great:
http://www.omegacycleworks.com/nucleusbikepic.jpg

I like colored bands
of course as an old guy - I remember them being painted
most today and just wrap around decals - which look nice but is not the same to me

I may do some for 2008 models
and I do plan to increase steel as everyone is asking for it

thanks
mike

Mike Overly

11-15-2006, 09:11 AM

Bertrand

11-15-2006, 09:26 AM

I have an 05 LeChamp SL in black. I love the colour scheme, but subjectively I prefer the appearance of a compact style frame.

I think if you offered compact style frames/bikes they would sell well. I personally would be interested in a compact steel frame, potentially with carbon forks and back end. For example, I think the following is one of the best looking frames out there (although it would be a snowy day in July before I would actually fork out for one):
http://www.cinelli.it/scripts/prodotti.php?Id=1&lang=EN&IdBici=319&Colore=91

Colours: I like the basics...black, red, green, or white.

Thanks for asking for feedback. Very unique...

bikesdirect

11-15-2006, 09:34 AM

Mike: Any idea when you might refresh your 853 line? Not many sizes leftover on your site for the Serpens.

As others have said, Lemond is the about the only branded "mass" producer of steel frames nowadays, and they're down to one road model for 2007 ... maybe none before long.

I think you could clean up if you made a push in solid-color 853 frames/packages (the colors on your new fixed gear ... white, silver, storm, black, etc. are perfect -- especially with easy-off decals or customer-option-to-apply).

Also, for all BD bikes, publishing the actual c-t-c frame size in parenthesis next to the c-t-t would be useful to us point-and-click bike buyers. Some c-t-t sizes are very misleading if there's a seat collar extension.

You are correct c-t-t is strange and c-t-c should be the standard. But the industry uses c-t-t and so we follow. On one bike we advertise at c-t-c - {KILO TT} and then put the c-t-t next to it. You would not believe how many people are totally confused by that.

On the forums, I think most people know a lot about bikes. But most our customers are not as focused on bikes. It is just another consumer product to them. So if we are out of line with what Trek, Raleigh, Fuji, Specialized, Felt etc are doing; we just confuse people.

853 bikes - always sell out before we can get more made. I have more coming but like many items they are delayed. Now its almost year end; then its chinese new year {year of the pig - I think} -- then its March before everything is smoothed out. I hope to have 853 back in stock by then.

thanks for the comments
mike