So, I went out for a ride on a 21 mile loop. Sure enough, on Mile 3, a car drove by with a 20-something guy in the passenger seat and the window rolled down. He stuck his head out the window and whistled and waved as they drove past me. I frowned and growled, then gave him the evil eye and stuck my tongue out at him. Of course, I forgot that I had sunglasses on, so he didn't see the evil eye, just the tongue. Which just made him smile and wave at me again. :mad:

At Mile 11, I stopped to refill my water bottle at a business along the road. I hear a honk and I look up toward the street. Another honk, and I look over at a pickup truck that's driving past me. The middle-aged male driver has the passenger window open and is leaning over to get a better look at me as he passes. He honked twice to make sure he made eye contact with me. :mad2:

On Mile 20, I noticed a car passingly slowly two lanes over from me and glanced sideways at it. A boy who appeared to be around 6 years old was in the front passenger seat with the window rolled down. He leaned his head out the window, put his thumbs in his ears, waggled his fingers, gave me the evil eye, and stuck his tongue out at me. I laughed out loud and yelled to him, "What was that for?!" Payback? These boys sure learn things at an early age. :rolleyes:

Every time I ride my bike or walk down the street, I get whistled, honked, waved, smiled, and/or leered at by males. WTF? Can't I just go out alone and enjoy the fresh air without getting harassed? Sometimes I pretend I don't see them, sometimes I stare blankly at them, occasionally I curse at them. :mad::mad::mad:

What do you women do when these things happen to you? How do you respond or not respond to them?

And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?

-----------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------deleted by moderator - sogno
Pardon me? When was the last time you got harassed by a girl or woman while you were riding your bike? :confused:

And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?

It's not acceptable behavior, even when sought after.

FTF, I gotta agree with Eddy on that. Not to say we women don't do plenty of stupid things but GENERALLY harassing cyclists is not one of them. And it is hard for a guy to grasp the level of vulnerability that women can feel if they are approached in a menacing way in a place that doesn't feel safe. It definitely isn't all guys by any stretch but it happens a lot.

Eddy, it is no great remedy but I've learned to ignore it. Any reaction at all can just feed into it, I think. No great solution!

Pardon me? When was the last time you got harassed by a girl or woman while you were riding your bike? :confused:


I can't speak for him...but this past summer I had a carload of 17-18year old girls flash me......:D Still have pleasant thoughts about that....but I digress, It's not acceptable behaviour, but unfortunately..many men are boors....:(

Eddy, it is no great remedy but I've learned to ignore it. Any reaction at all can just feed into it, I think. No great solution!
It's just become part of the culture. Sometimes I'd really like to **** **** ** and **** **** ****** **** them. We can ignore it, but it won't go away. :mad2:

The same thing happens to my wife when she goes running. There are lots of new houses being built by us, and when she goes running, the workers whistle and hoot. She can be wearing a baggy sweat shirt and they still do it. I tell her it is a stupid reaction created by an overload of testoserone. It is really sort of scary when you consider the fine thread of morals that keeps some of these men from acting on their reaction.

FTF, I gotta agree with Eddy on that. Not to say we women don't do plenty of stupid things but GENERALLY harassing cyclists is not one of them.
GENERALLY men don't either.

It's not acceptable behavior, even when sought after.

+1
nmnmndm

I think that it depends on where you ride too.

Not the same type of attention, but when I ride in Vermont people usually leave me alone. Maybe get honked at, or yelled at a couple times a month. When I ride in the greater Boston area it happens a couple times a ride. I'm not sure if it's a difference in attitude between rural and urban areas, or if it just has to do with more people being near Boston but there is a noticeable difference.

It is really sort of scary when you consider the fine thread of morals that keeps some of these men from acting on their reaction.
Exactly.

Hmm never happens to me, but then I'm a bit heavier and older then you.
It may have something to do with the fact that society and the entertainment industry make it seem acceptable though in recent years they have tried to clean it up some.

My friend owns a bed and breakfast 1/2 a block from the beach. When people come back they rinse the sand off in the back before they enter the house. This summer workman next door kept making comments to her guests. One of her guests spoke Spanish and understood the VERY rude comments they were making. When my friend spoke to the foreman he said her guests should be wearing bathing suits if they didn't want comments! WTF?

FTF, please don't come into the women's forum and start calling women sexist. I don't think you have a clue how much more complex it is for women to be on the receiving end of a cat call out on the bike than for guys to hear comments like "nice a$$."

Also, this isn't PO, so please watch the tone.

My riding partners wife runs early in the morning and the same thing has happened to here. Eddy not every guy is like that and it is unacceptable behavior, plain and simple. The only thing you can do is what jtolleson said, ignore it and move on. Remember your safety is more inportant than being right.

Eddy not every guy is like that and it is unacceptable behavior, plain and simple. The only thing you can do is what jtolleson said, ignore it and move on. Remember your safety is more inportant than being right.
Yes, I know. *sigh* Be the better person, take the higher road. I know that not every guy is like that, I just wish that I could stop these guys who are like that and confront them with their own stupidity. Some people don't take "no response" to mean "no."

FTF

Please read Gregg's guidelines stickied at the top of this forum. You shall not "insult women, either individually or in a group." You can express your opinions but you are expected to express them in a polite and respectful manner.

Gosh, I don't know what I would do if that happened to me. Anneli has told me about people saying hello to her and acknowledging her presence when she goes running, but absolutely nothing sexist. Maybe it's the Swedish culture, who knows. The only person who has ever commented my butt or legs or general form is Anneli, and that's the way it should be. In any case, what happens to you eddy is definitely unacceptable. If I drove by you, I would definitely check you out, but discreetly and politely :)

If I drove by you, I would definitely check you out, but discreetly and politely :)
LOL, thanks, Wayne. I needed that! :D

Wayne, you're MARRIED!!! :D:D:D:D

My friends and I check chicks out, but we dont whistle or make catcalls or anything.. We just look at well say 'wow she's hot' to each other... Nothing else...

Those who whistle and all, well, no comment.

uzzie,
The thing is to look but not open the cookie jar. You know what they say, "Look but don't touch."

When I was going to college I remember an incident in which a girl made me feel like a creep. I am 6'2" and was 250lbs then. It is late in the evening when I leave the library. Walking across the quad I am walking up behind a girl. Before I pass her she reaches for her keys and places them in her fist in such a way that some of the keys protrude between her clinched fingers. She's fearful of me. I stop walking. I watch her walk away towards the Student Union (lighted area) before I continue to walk to my car.

I totally forgot about that and how she made me feel like some kind of monster.

wayne *shakes head many times*

:D

i know sometimes you may feel vulnerable, but on the upside, comments and whistling is all you are getting. be thankful.

i was assaulted with a car, yes car, for no reason by a bunch of youths in a country town when cycling. I was singled out even tho there were other riders around. I can only assume this was the case because i was coloured in a pack of white riders in white country. (might sound like an over-reaction, but believe me i know racism when i see/hear it, my youth taught me that)

my advice, carry some mace with you and use as a last resort if you feel threatened. At least you are unlikely to be charged with battery if something does happen.

i know sometimes you may feel vulnerable, but on the upside, comments and whistling is all you are getting. be thankful.

i was assaulted with a car, yes car, for no reason by a bunch of youths in a country town when cycling. I was singled out even tho there were other riders around. I can only assume this was the case because i was coloured in a pack of white riders in white country. (might sound like an over-reaction, but believe me i know racism when i see/hear it, my youth taught me that)

my advice, carry some mace with you and use as a last resort if you feel threatened. At least you are unlikely to be charged with battery if something does happen.

Stories like your's make me cringe. I hate racism. Being Asian, I have experienced a little bit of racism, but probably not to the extent that you have. Racism stinks :mad:

Get Racism OUT!!!!!!! NOWWWWWW!!!!! Racist b** 3rds should be jailed... :D

I totally forgot about that and how she made me feel like some kind of monster.

I know that sucks but you should blame the low lifes out there that make her feel threatened to walk across the quad at night. Good on her for being prepared to fight. A car key in the eye can be a life altering thing for an attacker. She had no idea what your intentions were. Better for her to be prepared than raped.

Like the thread in the Lounge last week about the girl in the coffee shop getting harrassed... we, as men, shouldn't accept or allow that type of behaivor from our fellow men.

I know that sucks but you should blame the low lifes out there that make her feel threatened to walk across the quad at night. Good on her for being prepared to fight. A car key in the eye can be a life altering thing for an attacker. She had no idea what your intentions were. Better for her to be prepared than raped.

Like the thread in the Lounge last week about the girl in the coffee shop getting harrassed... we, as men, shouldn't accept or allow that type of behaivor from our fellow men.


Such men should be kicked in the butt, HARD... Makes us good guys 'suffer' too in a way I guess..

But, at least I'm glad our friends know who we are so yeah. And, err, ok I forgot what I wanted to say.. DOH!!!!

Pardon me? When was the last time you got harassed by a girl or woman while you were riding your bike? :confused:
Eddy,

What kind of harrasment are you talking about. I don't get much sexual type harrasment from women when I ride. But I get plenty of harrasment in general from both men and women. During my 13.5 mile commute I get yelled at, have things thrown at me, or excessive honking (one quick honk from a horn is not normaly harrasment). I have had women throw things at me, tell me to get on the side walk, change lanes and cut way too close to me, ect. ect. In other words, the same thing men do. I'll not argue that the harrasment is not more frequent with men than women, it is, but the difference is not that great, noticable, but not extreem.

As for what to do, just do what I do, ignore them. Give no reaction. Harrasment is harrasment, and it is wrong, but is isn't going away.

I used to get angry and swear and curse at them. It nearly got me aussalted a couple of times, not sexualy, but nearly aussalted none the less. I realized that on a bicycle you are VERY exposed, so I quit reaacting to harrasment. My ride quality improved.

One other thing, I think that the reason FTF, and myself, are a little defensive is that making sweeping generalizations like "And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior" is the same as me making a sweeping generalization such as "Why can't you girls fix your own bikes?" Neither is accurate, nor does it fairly represent the general population. I find your statement offensive because it does not represent me or my friends. Just as I'm sure you can perform roadside repairs just fine, my friends and I are able to respect a female rider's right to enjoy her time on the bike, free from our advances. We think so lowly of this kind of behavior that when it is pinned on us simply because of our gender, we feel wronged and sometimes become defensive. This being a women's forum, I would have ignored the sexism under the reasoning that my comments are not invited here, but since you asked.....

Negitivity over, Have a nice ride Eddy, soon you will be able to ignore those a$$hats, just like you ignore the drivers who place their mirrors within millimeters of your shoulder.

Chill.

FTF, please don't come into the women's forum and start calling women sexist. I don't think you have a clue how much more complex it is for women to be on the receiving end of a cat call out on the bike than for guys to hear comments like "nice a$$."

Also, this isn't PO, so please watch the tone.

Harraasment is harrasment, sexual or not, it's wrong to make someone feel threatened.

Sexism is sexism, whether directed at men, women or anything in between, it's wrong to make sweeping generalizations about a person because of their gender. Just because it is difficult for you be treated in a sexist way does not make it right for you to treat others that way. Sexism, racism, and most other forms social injustice end or begin with the individual. Defending sexism aginst men goes aginst your advice of ignoring it, even in this forum.

She asked. We gave our opinion. I am all for keeping my opinions out of a women's forum, unless they are invited in.

Fair is fair.

Chill.
Ok.

I would have left it at that, but the forum told me to make it five characters or more.

A Guy here. I think it is totally unacceptable to whistle or say anything like that to a girl running or riding, etc. I am sorry it happens. There is still a lot of sexist idiots out there - but the vast majority of guys do NOT think this is acceptable. I can see why some guys are offended by such a blanket statement - though I think many of the above choose poor tone and wording.

A few more points - many modern men are so far the opposite of this. I work a lot with a girl (she is my project manager). A number of times she has told me she likes a particular shirt I am wearing or the glasses I got. None of this is a come on. We are both married and know each other's family. Due to things like idiots in cars and the like, we are so repressed . . . I could not bring myself to say something similar to her.

I do think that unwanted attention to a women in a situation like that (riding, running, etc) is worse than a girl saying nice a$$ to a guy. Here is why - the fear of potential results. Girls get raped. Guys (generally) do not get forcibly raped by women. I am sure this taints how we react. For better or worse, a lot of guys would not have a problem with someone saying nice a$$. I cannot think of too many girls that would like that as the opening statement to a conversation or called from a car. That said, I think it is wrong to think all guys are okay with sexual advances or comments like that.

To the first post - sticking the tongue out is about as bad of a reaction as I could imagine. Bottom line is that the type of moron who will cat call you will think that reaction is a GOOD thing. Look, it is not me, but I have to think no reaction is the best thing you can do. Anger or flipping the bird could set the idiot off. More often than not even these idiots are harmless - they want reaction a lot more than anything. If someone goes nuts, they laugh and are sure to do it again.

More than anything, I hate that this stuff happens. Just as I hate that racist things happen. The best thing anyone can do is not do it themselves and teach their kids the same.

I don't think you have a clue how much more complex it is for women to be on the receiving end of a cat call out on the bike than for guys to hear comments like "nice a$$."



you believe that a man can't have a clue how much more complex it is?

I don't get this.......Harrassment is harrassment......why do you think it is more severe (which you seem to imply) when it's directed at women as opposed to when it is directed at men?

I am not defending FTF's method of responding, but if I understand his response, he is basically saying that it's not all men...it's only a small % of idiots. And BTW, I had the same reaction to paint's initial post when she said: "And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?" By directing the question that way, it implies that all guys do this. We don't.

All guys don't so this, in fact most guys don't......I was on a ride a few weeks ago, and a pickup went by me, guys yelling and screaming to get the F off the road etc, followed by a full bottle of gatorade heaved at me that just missed my head.........should I ask the question "Guys who drive pickup trucks, what makes you think this is acceptable behavior?" or just "Guys, what makes you think this is acceptable behavior?". When I was younger,I had a women ask me to dance at a bar only to learn later that she was trying to win a "See who can dance with the biggest geek in the bar" contest..........maybe I should ask..."Women,what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?"

I understand a little about how Paint must have felt, I also understand her frustration, I don't think this behavior is ever acceptable, but I don't like sweeping generalizations that lump me in with those that behave like this. And I think this is what the strong reactions were about.

FTF is correct about one thing....idiocy is not sex dependant.....

I'm just saying.

& eddy, sorry this happened to you. My wife rides alone in a very rural area, she's had a few times when she's gotten frightened....she does 3 things......1.) she ignores them outwardly, 2.) She carries pepper spray & 3.) she is not afraid to go up and knock on a door asking for help if the nharrassment continues or if she in any way feels unsafe.. Her safety is more important than continuing the ride.

Just my .02

Len

FTF, please don't come into the women's forum and start calling women sexist.

I only speak the truth. I guess I should feel sorry for that.

I don't think you have a clue how much more complex it is for women to be on the receiving end of a cat call out on the bike than for guys to hear comments like "nice a$$."


You are joking right. Wow.

FTF

Please read Gregg's guidelines stickied at the top of this forum. You shall not "insult women, either individually or in a group." You can express your opinions but you are expected to express them in a polite and respectful manner.

Respect is a two way street.

Len, I didn't mean to step on toes, but I do think that it is difficult for many men to understand how different (and more threatening) certainly things done towards women than they are towards men. I didn't say "men" don't have a clue; I said FTF doesn't have a clue (if he's comparing his being cat-called on the bike to Eddy's experience)

But my main point is that this forum is not the place to be calling out women the way FTF did.

The rest of this discussion is important and worth having, but I think better for Lounge or PO. Women should be able to come here and post about their feelings without getting ripped on as "sexist." Would people go into an African-American discussion group and start calling folks out as "racist" because they overgeneralized?

Chill.

Rock, glass houses and all. Plus she asked the "guys" a question.

No, FTF, I'm not remotely joking. If you were in the demographic where sexual comments can turn into physical assaults maybe you'd understand a little better.

In the meantime, I'm asking for the last time that you stop with your tone.

Len, I didn't mean to step on toes, but I do think that it is difficult for many men to understand how different (and more threatening) certainly things done towards women than they are towards men. But my main point is that this forum is not the place to be calling out women the way FTF did.

The rest of this discussion is important and worth having, but I think better for Lounge or PO. Women should be able to come here and post about their feelings without getting ripped on as "sexist." Would people go into an African-American discussion group and start calling folks out as "racist" because they overgeneralized?

You didn't step on my toes......but I don't think it is difficult for men to understand how threatening it is to a women....believe it or not men know what it is like to feel threatened.

I agree with your comment about FTF......but I don't think his message should be missed because of his tone is all.

I'm not sure I get your point about moving it to the lounge or PO. I think that most of the responders who were put off by eddy's generalizations were able to communicate this while still addressing her main point. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This is an important discussion IMO because it highlights fundamental differences between men and women and IMO helps bridge the gap....and I'm glad she posted it, no matter what forum it was posted in.

Len

No, FTF, I'm not remotely joking. If you were in the demographic where sexual comments can turn into physical assaults maybe you'd understand a little better.
And, guys never get sexually assualted, right? I've never had a girl come up and grab my balls in a club, nope not me. This is insane.

Why do you think that this is exceptable behavior?

Wayne, you're MARRIED!!! :D:D:D:D
We may be married, but we aren't blind....never understood why some married women expected their husbands to never notice an attractive woman when she walked by. I mean you don't have to pull one of those cartoon whistle kind of moves and make an arse out of yourself, but a quick glance? Sure...why not. :D

//Here's the perfect product for the whistling redneck in a pickup...they don't even have to roll the window down...just honk the horn:

http://www.truckstuffusa.com/wolftruckwhistlebywolo.html

Thread locked temporarily for a "time out". :nono:

Will reopen later.

Thread reopened.

As a male cyclist, I get sexually oriented attention infrequently, maybe once every few years. Female cyclists get the attention much more often (as Eddy's post showed). I can laugh it off because I know the women who showed me the attention were not serious. Women, on the other hand, can not assume that the unwanted attention is not dangerous.

Thread reopened.

Yay! I've been dying to tell eddy that that's what she gets for being so damn smokin'!!!

Just kidding, I know that's it's not acceptable just because a woman is good looking... but that was my witty repsonse.

Honestly, it doesn't happen all that much to me when I'm on my bike. I'm more apt to be buzzed by a truck with the driver shouting obscenities at me. Maybe I don't look feminine enough!??! I get plenty of car honks and stuff when I'm running. It's my policy to ignore all such unwanted attention. I don't even make eye contact or look up, regardless of how loud or frequently they honk. That's what they want, after all... Our attention. Negative or positive, the men that do this don't seem to care... So give them nothing and infuriate them all the more! :aureola:

Mike, that's the point I was trying to make above and you said it better than I did. It wasn't that I was trying to excuse harassment of anyone, but I did want to acknowledge the difference that you described.

A Guy here. I think it is totally unacceptable to whistle or say anything like that to a girl running or riding, etc. I am sorry it happens. There is still a lot of sexist idiots out there - but the vast majority of guys do NOT think this is acceptable. I can see why some guys are offended by such a blanket statement - though I think many of the above choose poor tone and wording.

I am not defending FTF's method of responding, but if I understand his response, he is basically saying that it's not all men...it's only a small % of idiots. And BTW, I had the same reaction to EDDY's initial post when she said: "And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?" By directing the question that way, it implies that all guys do this. We don't.

- And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?
- And, guys, what makes some of you think that this is acceptable behavior?
- And what makes guys think that this is acceptable behavior?
- And what makes some guys think that this is acceptable behavior?

They're all the same question, with two or three words out of place.
I guess those two or three words means the difference between a civilized discussion and a sh*t st*rm.
No wonder wars happen over words.

I do think that unwanted attention to a women in a situation like that (riding, running, etc) is worse than a girl saying nice a$$ to a guy. Here is why - the fear of potential results. Girls get raped. Guys (generally) do not get forcibly raped by women. I am sure this taints how we react. For better or worse, a lot of guys would not have a problem with someone saying nice a$$. I cannot think of too many girls that would like that as the opening statement to a conversation or called from a car. That said, I think it is wrong to think all guys are okay with sexual advances or comments like that.

Yes, this is how I feel. Most girls don't like this type of attention, and most guys do. I did not write that ALL guys think it is acceptable, but I did not specify that SOME guys think it is acceptable.

To the first post - sticking the tongue out is about as bad of a reaction as I could imagine. Bottom line is that the type of moron who will cat call you will think that reaction is a GOOD thing. Look, it is not me, but I have to think no reaction is the best thing you can do. Anger or flipping the bird could set the idiot off. More often than not even these idiots are harmless - they want reaction a lot more than anything. If someone goes nuts, they laugh and are sure to do it again.

More than anything, I hate that this stuff happens. Just as I hate that racist things happen. The best thing anyone can do is not do it themselves and teach their kids the same.

Yeah, I knew I should not have stuck my tongue out the moment I did it. Most of the time I do ignore it. But, like I wrote in another reply, some people don't take "no response" to mean "no." Some people will keep doing something until someone else calls them on it. Those guys in the coffee shop (http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=78386) will probably keep harassing girls until someone else stands up to them.

Harraasment is harrasment, sexual or not, it's wrong to make someone feel threatened.

Sexism is sexism, whether directed at men, women or anything in between, it's wrong to make sweeping generalizations about a person because of their gender. Just because it is difficult for you be treated in a sexist way does not make it right for you to treat others that way. Sexism, racism, and most other forms social injustice end or begin with the individual. Defending sexism aginst men goes aginst your advice of ignoring it, even in this forum.

She asked. We gave our opinion. I am all for keeping my opinions out of a women's forum, unless they are invited in.

Fair is fair.

I understand a little about how EDDY must have felt, I also understand her frustration, I don't think this behavior is ever acceptable, but I don't like sweeping generalizations that lump me in with those that behave like this. And I think this is what the strong reactions were about.

Again, I don't think that I'm making a wild generalization about guys when I write that I received unwanted attention three times in 21 miles. I asked one generalized question: "guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?" Some of you guys didn't answer it, you took it personally and ranted at me for asking. I'm sorry that some of you feel that it was a direct insult or that I was deliberately stating that all of the males of this board think harassment is OK.

All guys don't so this, in fact most guys don't......I was on a ride a few weeks ago, and a pickup went by me, guys yelling and screaming to get the F off the road etc, followed by a full bottle of gatorade heaved at me that just missed my head.........should I ask the question "Guys who drive pickup trucks, what makes you think this is acceptable behavior?" or just "Guys, what makes you think this is acceptable behavior?". When I was younger,I had a women ask me to dance at a bar only to learn later that she was trying to win a "See who can dance with the biggest geek in the bar" contest..........maybe I should ask..."Women,what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?"

I think you should ask these questions. And if you had asked, I would not have taken offense at the question because I would not have thought that you were lumping me in with these women. I would have been appalled and shocked that this happened to you.

& eddy, sorry this happened to you. My wife rides alone in a very rural area, she's had a few times when she's gotten frightened....she does 3 things......1.) she ignores them outwardly, 2.) She carries pepper spray & 3.) she is not afraid to go up and knock on a door asking for help if the nharrassment continues or if she in any way feels unsafe.. Her safety is more important than continuing the ride.

Yes, ignorance is bliss. I'm not trying to make light of ignoring these things, I know that it is the best thing to do. But ignorance won't make it go away.

This is an important discussion IMO because it highlights fundamental differences between men and women and IMO helps bridge the gap....and I'm glad she posted it, no matter what forum it was posted in.

Thank you, Len. I am still glad I posted it, even though I got harassed some more. I think I am pretty careful about the things I post, especially when they are of a serious nature. Heck, I've only posted, "I'd hit it," two or three times!

And, guys never get sexually assualted, right? I've never had a girl come up and grab my balls in a club, nope not me. This is insane.

Why do you think that this is exceptable behavior?

It's not acceptable behavior, even when sought after.

It's not acceptable behavior, period.

Eddy,

What kind of harrasment are you talking about. I don't get much sexual type harrasment from women when I ride. But I get plenty of harrasment in general from both men and women. During my 13.5 mile commute I get yelled at, have things thrown at me, or excessive honking (one quick honk from a horn is not normaly harrasment). I have had women throw things at me, tell me to get on the side walk, change lanes and cut way too close to me, ect. ect. In other words, the same thing men do. I'll not argue that the harrasment is not more frequent with men than women, it is, but the difference is not that great, noticable, but not extreem.

As for what to do, just do what I do, ignore them. Give no reaction. Harrasment is harrasment, and it is wrong, but is isn't going away.

My impression is that eddy's post is referring to harassment that is sexual in nature. All or us, men as well as women riders have to deal with the usual arsehats who buzz us or shout out the windows at us. But when sexually oriented catcalls get launched at a woman, well I've had it happen to me and it's gets old pretty fast. Because of this I can see why there is a good deal of exasperation on eddy's part in her OP. I do see your point in regards to this quote:

One other thing, I think that the reason FTF, and myself, are a little defensive is that making sweeping generalizations like "And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior" is the same as me making a sweeping generalization such as "Why can't you girls fix your own bikes?" Neither is accurate, nor does it fairly represent the general population. I find your statement offensive because it does not represent me or my friends. Just as I'm sure you can perform roadside repairs just fine, my friends and I are able to respect a female rider's right to enjoy her time on the bike, free from our advances. We think so lowly of this kind of behavior that when it is pinned on us simply because of our gender, we feel wronged and sometimes become defensive.

I do think this thread brings up a very important point. One thing that a woman riding alone has to contend with that men may not necessarily have worry about is that she is vulnerable to a violent attack like rape.

And yes, some of us do need advice with our wrenching so please do drop in and check on us. :)

Yay! I've been dying to tell eddy that that's what she gets for being so damn smokin'!!!

Just kidding, I know that's it's not acceptable just because a woman is good looking... but that was my witty repsonse.

Honestly, it doesn't happen all that much to me when I'm on my bike. I'm more apt to be buzzed by a truck with the driver shouting obscenities at me. Maybe I don't look feminine enough!??! I get plenty of car honks and stuff when I'm running. It's my policy to ignore all such unwanted attention. I don't even make eye contact or look up, regardless of how loud or frequently they honk. That's what they want, after all... Our attention. Negative or positive, the men that do this don't seem to care... So give them nothing and infuriate them all the more! :aureola:

LOL, thanks for lightening the mood a little, von.

I usually do try to ignore it. There was just something different that day. Although, the reason I looked up when the guy in the pickup truck honked was because I frequent that area several times a week and have often had friends or acquaintances honk at me to say hello.

My last word.

It just so happened that I received unwanted attention three times on one short ride. I was mad about it, so I posted about it. Yes, I was hoping for some sympathy, but also for a little insight into their behavior.

I apologize to you guys who were offended by my rampant, blatant, sexist, hypocritical, sweeping, blanket, generalized, presumptuous statement to whom the statement does not apply. To those guys to whom it does apply, none of whom are members of this forum: **** ***.

Thank you everyone for your help in giving me the distinction of having the first locked thread in Women's Cycling+.

It's not acceptable behavior, period.
That's what I meant when I said "even when sought after". :)

When I was going to college I remember an incident in which a girl made me feel like a creep. I am 6'2" and was 250lbs then. It is late in the evening when I leave the library. Walking across the quad I am walking up behind a girl. Before I pass her she reaches for her keys and places them in her fist in such a way that some of the keys protrude between her clinched fingers. She's fearful of me. I stop walking. I watch her walk away towards the Student Union (lighted area) before I continue to walk to my car.

I totally forgot about that and how she made me feel like some kind of monster.
Yeah, isn't that the best feeling? :(
For a two weeks I volunteered in a domestic violence center, I was supposed to work with the teenagers. At the time I was a runner, I was pretty big looking - I did 200 pushups a day, benched 240, etc.
I stopped volunteering after two weeks because I would walk in, and regardless of what I had on, the women would all flinch and shrink back from me... It killed me.

The thing that did the most damage to me, that really caused me to break and quit was when I walked into the center wearing running shorts and a tank top, and I was eating ice cream - not the most threatening look, but evidently the tank top was enough to make 3 of the women shriek and run into the women's restroom when I walked into the lobby.

-estone2

I think there are a couple of key differences, one being the way cat-calls are taken.

Fellas, let's be honest, if a female yells something at you while you're on the bike, it's generally taken as a compliment, no? I personally find it tasteless when a guy does the same to a woman on a bike. I don't think there's the same level of objectification happening to men as there is to women.

Secondly, it happens far more frequently to women, at least in the sexual sense. It's innapropriate, and unfortunately it will probably keep happening as long as lowlifes like the ones in the OP's post are around.

In no way do I view what any of the women on this thread have said as being unfair to us guys. In fact, I think they are being quite discerning when in comes to distinguishing between the guys with character and those who lack it. There's a bit too much reading between the lines going on here...there's no reason to get offended because someone has problems with those guys' actions. If you didn't do it, it's not directed at you.

As for the OP, I can't justify or apologize for that kind of behavior...just remember, that for every pig out there, there are plenty of decent individuals, like myself:D

And seriously, everyone just chillax.

[quote=eddy]I apologize to you guys who were offended by my rampant, blatant, sexist, hypocritical, sweeping, blanket, generalized, presumptuous statement to whom the statement does not apply. To those guys to whom it does apply, none of whom are members of this forum: **** ***.

quote]

thanks eddy, I needed that.


Len

- And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?
- And, guys, what makes some of you think that this is acceptable behavior?
- And what makes guys think that this is acceptable behavior?
- And what makes some guys think that this is acceptable behavior?

They're all the same question, with two or three words out of place.
I guess those two or three words means the difference between a civilized discussion and a sh*t st*rm.
No wonder wars happen over words.


unfortunatly, in the absence of face to face, reading of body language, interaction, all we all have to react to on the net are words......so yes, a few words do matter. And no, I don't think they are the same question....the word some changes the meaning dramaticially.

Should it have resulted in a **** storm....no.......the point could have been made in a much more civilized manner......but unfortunatly it wasn't.

I can tell you, that most guys I know get really pissed off when they see women they know and even women they don't know being harrased like you describe.....just my experience FWIW.

None of us like being made uncomfortable, threatened or demeaned.

Sorry it happened to you.

Len

you believe that a man can't have a clue how much more complex it is?

I don't get this.......Harrassment is harrassment......why do you think it is more severe (which you seem to imply) when it's directed at women as opposed to when it is directed at men?

I am not defending FTF's method of responding, but if I understand his response, he is basically saying that it's not all men...it's only a small % of idiots. And BTW, I had the same reaction to paint's initial post when she said: "And, guys, what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?" By directing the question that way, it implies that all guys do this. We don't.

All guys don't so this, in fact most guys don't......I was on a ride a few weeks ago, and a pickup went by me, guys yelling and screaming to get the F off the road etc, followed by a full bottle of gatorade heaved at me that just missed my head.........should I ask the question "Guys who drive pickup trucks, what makes you think this is acceptable behavior?" or just "Guys, what makes you think this is acceptable behavior?". When I was younger,I had a women ask me to dance at a bar only to learn later that she was trying to win a "See who can dance with the biggest geek in the bar" contest..........maybe I should ask..."Women,what makes you think that this is acceptable behavior?"

I understand a little about how Paint must have felt, I also understand her frustration, I don't think this behavior is ever acceptable, but I don't like sweeping generalizations that lump me in with those that behave like this. And I think this is what the strong reactions were about.

FTF is correct about one thing....idiocy is not sex dependant.....

I'm just saying.

& eddy, sorry this happened to you. My wife rides alone in a very rural area, she's had a few times when she's gotten frightened....she does 3 things......1.) she ignores them outwardly, 2.) She carries pepper spray & 3.) she is not afraid to go up and knock on a door asking for help if the nharrassment continues or if she in any way feels unsafe.. Her safety is more important than continuing the ride.

Just my .02

Len
Len, I have to quibble with you -- I don't think that men really can understand. Yeah, we may know what it feels like to be physically threatened, or at least those of us who are not the biggest dude in the place, but we don't -- or the vast majority of us don't, anyway -- know what it's like to be sexually threatened.
Sexual politics is not a wash. When we see those news stories -- c'mon fellows, you know this is true -- about the young female junior high school teachers seducing students, most of us are thinking, in my dreams my gawd why didn't anything like that ever happen to me. The other way around, male teachers and female students, society collectively gets ready for the lynching party.
Men are gross, is the short answer. But we don't all behave that way, for sure.
We don't necessarily make the rules, or understand them, but those are the rules.

biting my tongue in regards to this thread, but I feel that I have to point something out. When women wear skin tight skimpy outfits like they do at the beach, or when some women run or workout. Then you are GOING TO ATTRACT attention. Whether you want it or not. Luckily for me....a bald slightly overweight male attracts little attention in a skin tight outfit. I'm not talking about cycling, because the outfits are generally not sexual in nature, but when I hear a woman complain about "unwanted" attention, I often wonder what HER part in that is. Maybe that is wrong, but I do. And I notice some of the women who run in our area, and they don't run in a loose t shirt and shorts....they have to wear the skin tight halter bra with skin tight shorts.....well..if you are going to do that, don't complain about the attention...

Len, I have to quibble with you -- I don't think that men really can understand. Yeah, we may know what it feels like to be physically threatened, or at least those of us who are not the biggest dude in the place, but we don't -- or the vast majority of us don't, anyway -- know what it's like to be sexually threatened.
Sexual politics is not a wash. When we see those news stories -- c'mon fellows, you know this is true -- about the young female junior high school teachers seducing students, most of us are thinking, in my dreams my gawd why didn't anything like that ever happen to me. The other way around, male teachers and female students, society collectively gets ready for the lynching party.
Men are gross, is the short answer. But we don't all behave that way, for sure.
We don't necessarily make the rules, or understand them, but those are the rules.

I sit corrected.

Len

biting my tongue in regards to this thread, but I feel that I have to point something out. When women wear skin tight skimpy outfits like they do at the beach, or when some women run or workout. Then you are GOING TO ATTRACT attention. Whether you want it or not. Luckily for me....a bald slightly overweight male attracts little attention in a skin tight outfit. I'm not talking about cycling, because the outfits are generally not sexual in nature, but when I hear a woman complain about "unwanted" attention, I often wonder what HER part in that is. Maybe that is wrong, but I do. And I notice some of the women who run in our area, and they don't run in a loose t shirt and shorts....they have to wear the skin tight halter bra with skin tight shorts.....well..if you are going to do that, don't complain about the attention...
I think attention is fine. We all like a little attention. Right, girls?
But catcalling and circling back and leaning out of cars is not attention. I mean, it is, but it's way beyond attention -- and if we boys don't know where the line is, then we need to learn.
It's not that hard. One is innocent and even flattering. On a ride a couple of weeks ago, I and some buddies passed this lovely woman running. I turned, looked, and flashed her a friendly and appreciative thumbs up. She smiled; she was tickled.
The other is creepy and threatening.
I had a friend who was rather bounteously endowed. She said, you know, it's fine to look, they're a part of me, it's okay, but just don't stand there talking to my breasts. I hear you, friend.
there's a line. it's not that hard to find.

My last word.

It just so happened that I received unwanted attention three times on one short ride. I was mad about it, so I posted about it. Yes, I was hoping for some sympathy, but also for a little insight into their behavior.

I apologize to you guys who were offended by my rampant, blatant, sexist, hypocritical, sweeping, blanket, generalized, presumptuous statement to whom the statement does not apply. To those guys to whom it does apply, none of whom are members of this forum: **** ***.

Thank you everyone for your help in giving me the distinction of having the first locked thread in Women's Cycling+.

Fair enough, eddy, I can certianly understand being mad, venting, and realizing that it was taken the wong way after the fact, having done this myself a time or two. Thanks for being a good enough person to look at things from other angles. Congratulations on having the first locked thread in this forum. That ranks up there with getting a speeding ticket on your bike.
As far as insight into why some men behave this way, hey, what do expect from us, the tv show says we're from mars ya know. Just Kidding. Really, some of my gender can be moreons.

biting my tongue in regards to this thread, but I feel that I have to point something out. When women wear skin tight skimpy outfits like they do at the beach, or when some women run or workout. Then you are GOING TO ATTRACT attention. Whether you want it or not. Luckily for me....a bald slightly overweight male attracts little attention in a skin tight outfit. I'm not talking about cycling, because the outfits are generally not sexual in nature, but when I hear a woman complain about "unwanted" attention, I often wonder what HER part in that is. Maybe that is wrong, but I do. And I notice some of the women who run in our area, and they don't run in a loose t shirt and shorts....they have to wear the skin tight halter bra with skin tight shorts.....well..if you are going to do that, don't complain about the attention...

I wear skin tight biking clothes for a reason, and it ain't for attention. I'm sure this can apply to women as well. Also, if a woman walkes naked down my street, I don't have the right to harass her. It's called self control. I might say something like "nice shoes", but that's just to be funny. I'm normaly not one to "blame the victem".

My $.02--

OK, first, since most of us guys have never spent any time in prison the threat of sexual assault to us is virtually nil. This means that we will have a very hard time ever understanding the fear women must feel when they are made to feel threatened with sexual attack. If we ever could. To the OP, sorry this happened to you.

Second, I have to admit I have made the occasional wolf whistle back when I was in college. One apt I lived in had a balcony that overlooked the parking lot. Every afternoon my roommates and I would sit outside and "greet" every girl that pulled into the parking lot as soon as she got out of her car. At first people were really irritated, we didn't get it at the time, but it was not as harsh on us as it could have been because all these girls knew us and knew that if they were threatened we were people they could count on to look out for them. One thing that lessened the girls' fury was the fact that we called out to every single girl in the complex, every day. All of them. No matter what they looked like, how they were dressed, didn't matter. After a while they appreciated it, and when we all moved they told us how much they missed it. That experience was the exception WRT those kinds of actions, not the rule. Unfortunately, most guys don't have the same kind of intentions that we did. I kept doing it at my next apt., and the last girl I ever did it to chewed me out royally. Impressed me so much I married her. ;)

Ladies, we're not all neanderthals, and guys, the ladies don't think we're all rapists. The problem for the ladies IMO is that on first glance they can't tell the difference--especially when we harmless ones in some cases act the same way as the ones who aren't.

This is an interesting discussion. I see this as boundaries of respect. That most “unwanted attention” is male to female is a reflection of the perceived disproportionate amount of power in some male minds. I think it’s structure determining behavior. That is one of the reasons some woman, including my daughter, can find it threatening. Some more insightful people see the need for power to be more evenly distributed for that reason.

I read some of the posts in this thread as much more defensive than respectful or wanting to understand. Too many men still have a tribal male impulse and an element of unevolved animal that pushes their behavior. Like animals, when getting the scent of blood they can’t help but go for it.

Eddy, my daughter found a study a couple of years ago that showed male bats that have the largest testicles also have the smallest brains. That gave her the excuse, to be taken lightly and out of context, to dismiss things like the unwanted attention you write of as some men making an evolutionary trade off between intelligence and a sense of power, sexual or simply power. She is good at finding ways to defuse her reaction to such things. She also knows that structural behavior is something that many men and woman have worked hard to understand and try to change and that there is still work to be done. I think it should please us all when people make choices that lead to understanding and possible solutions rather than defensiveness, resentment or anger.

biting my tongue in regards to this thread, but I feel that I have to point something out. When women wear skin tight skimpy outfits like they do at the beach, or when some women run or workout. Then you are GOING TO ATTRACT attention. Whether you want it or not. Luckily for me....a bald slightly overweight male attracts little attention in a skin tight outfit. I'm not talking about cycling, because the outfits are generally not sexual in nature, but when I hear a woman complain about "unwanted" attention, I often wonder what HER part in that is. Maybe that is wrong, but I do. And I notice some of the women who run in our area, and they don't run in a loose t shirt and shorts....they have to wear the skin tight halter bra with skin tight shorts.....well..if you are going to do that, don't complain about the attention...Good points, phys. Lots of shades of grey here. I would say that when a woman is working out, in general she is not looking to attract attention. Really, she's just looking for a workout. I think most women would not object to something like a thumbs up. For me I would take the thumbs up sign as a positive comment on my riding, not on my physical "attributes". But then again, I am not the type of girl to ride in a halter bra - think of the sunburn!

The subject of a woman "asking for attention" kinda strikes me as the American version of a veil/burkha issue. I guess it's just another gaping crevasse in the male-female divide.:(

Good points, phys. Lots of shades of grey here. I would say that when a woman is working out, in general she is not looking to attract attention. Really, she's just looking for a workout. I think most women would not object to something like a thumbs up. For me I would take the thumbs up sign as a positive comment on my riding, not on my physical "attributes". But then again, I am not the type of girl to ride in a halter bra - think of the sunburn!

The subject of a woman "asking for attention" kinda strikes me as the American version of a veil/burkha issue. I guess it's just another gaping crevasse in the male-female divide.:(
I thought that the thumbs-up -- I hope, anyway -- was taken in this spirit: her working out was working, because she looked healthy and, you know, good, and we were saluting her in honest appreciation in this land of couch potatoes for what she was doing for herself.
plus she was running, and we were riding by at speed, so it could be only but so threatening.

Sometimes we ride with a guy who has long flowing brown hair. (About a foot long). He doesn't always tie it up really well when we ride so it flys behind him as we ride along. He's also fairly darn skinny and lacking anything but leg muscle, so every once in a while he gets the cat calls and "Oh yeah baby!" comments. At least until the car gets even with him and they realize there's a beard. Poor guy, a victim of constant unwanted sexual redneck attention. . .! But it provides us with a good laugh.

As for Eddy's original question. There is no excuse. You've just got a bunch of guys who feel they're being real men or just desparate for some type of women's attention, so they'll behave like s$^@heads.

As for the original, earlier wacky, angry replies. Come on man! Give me a break. Guys who overreact like that often leave me really wondering about them. I had no problem understanding Eddy's question, and I'm sure the poster didn't either. Just looking for a fight. Reminds me of a lot of the guys I meet in bars. . .chip on shoulder. . .lookin' for a fight. Needin' a smack down I guess.

so, is the problem the unwanted attention or the fact that you can't do anything to stop it?

because all i'm hearing from you is that you're pissed that you can't do anything about it.

why worry about what you can't control? ignoring is the bigger, better, more mature way of handling the situation. you are riding a bike, you have options to ignore, avoid and change the situation.

you might have me in your ignore list so someone tell her i'm not flaming. :)

so, is the problem the unwanted attention or the fact that you can't do anything to stop it?

because all i'm hearing from you is that you're pissed that you can't do anything about it.

why worry about what you can't control? ignoring is the bigger, better, more mature way of handling the situation. you are riding a bike, you have options to ignore, avoid and change the situation.

you might have me in your ignore list so someone tell her i'm not flaming. :)
isn't really the heart of it the threat of violence that can't be controlled? and, while guys may understand that there are guys out there that we are not going to take on physically to great effect, we also are pretty sure that, if it came to violence, we may get a bloodied nose or something -- we may even get stabbed or worse -- but we're not going to get raped.
the odds that this guy would commit actual violence are slim, I think everyone agrees. but not non-existent. and if it came to violence, it wouldn't be just his pushing her or throwing a punch or two. if it came to violence, he would be meaning real business, as in sexual violence. that's the reality of the sexual politics. which is why guys never will really understand.

Eddy, sorry you had a problem, when I see an attractive woman I try and treat her how I would want my daughter (if I had one) wife or sister treated. On this forum I try and write as if everyone knew who I was and that helps to keep me accountable. It seems that some on this thread are protesting too much possibly (FTF) and why in the world did this thread have to be locked earlier? Did I miss something. People can't we have a conversation without going to the mattresses??

Peace Out

It seems that some on this thread are protesting too much possibly (FTF) and why in the world did this thread have to be locked earlier? Did I miss something. People can't we have a conversation without going to the mattresses??

Peace Out
JT and I locked the thread temporarily in part to give the thread a chance to cool down, but also to give us time to break out the Hattori Hanzo sword and address what we felt was the unacceptable tone of FTF's posts.

FTF has been banned from the WC+ forum and has been given a few days "time out" from RBR.


*Hattori Hanzo sword sheathed*

I've been lurking on this thread for quite a while. First, I'm a male. To the OP, sorry you have to go through this. There's no excuse for it. I sympathize with your frustrations. Please try to remember that most guys are not like this, at least guys I know. Maybe it is the demographics or level of education of my peers, but guys I know rarely if ever throw out verbal harrassment. (To be honest, if guys in this demographic want to objectify women, they drop $500 at a strip club.)

It still amazes me that men think it's a level road out there. Sure we have some great women cyclists and women in CEO positions, etc. but the simple fact is that many more women are physically and psychologically victimized by men than the other way around. And we still have men blaming the harrassment "victims" for wearing lycra shorts. What year is this?

Harrassment is still a very real problem in our society. In fact, a group here in NYC actually holds seminars for women and transgender cyclists on how to deal with street harrassment (http://www.times-up.org/calendar/detail.php?calendarid=948) Maybe you should organize one where you live. Good luck and rubber side down.

(To be honest, if guys in this demographic want to objectify women, they drop $500 at a strip club.)

:eek: Is that how much those places cost? :eek:

FTF has been banned from the WC+ forum and has been given a few days "time out" from RBR.


*Hattori Hanzo sword sheathed*

sheet...I musta missed the FTF posts that caused such a reaction from you! That's pretty harsh...then again some people won't leave well enough alone when asked to. :eek:

:eek: Is that how much those places cost? :eek:

Last time I was in a dancer's bar lap dances started at $20. I have no idea where they end.

Last time I was in a dancer's bar lap dances started at $20. I have no idea where they end.

There is often a cover charge, beers are usually $5 or more...dancers hound you for dollar bills constantly and hit you up for the $20-40 lap dances. You can drop some serious coin in one of those places if you aren't careful.

Okay, I didn't read this entire thread. I only got through the first two posts, but here goes.

I will agree that it is different between men and women. Exactly why, I have no idea. I'm a guy, and when women say something to me out of a car window or whistle at me, I take it as a compliment. I don't whistle at women, but I am guilty of actually pulling up next to good looking women and taking a look at them. Now, that doesn't mean I follow them for miles on end. I decide whether or not they are good looking and move on. Kind of satisfies the curiosity.

The last time I was out riding, I climbed a mountain. On the descent, I was stuck behind a group of women in a car, and the driver was struggling to go fast enough to keep me off her bumper. Well, I ended up passing the car on the next straight section I came to. At the bottom, there is a stop sign, and some of those girls were whistling at me while the others were waving. I took it as a compliment.

On the flip side of things, I would rather be getting whistled at than ignored. If guys are paying attention to you, it means you are good looking. Now, that doesn't mean that these guys are going to do anything bad, just like I never thought that those girls were going to pull a gun on me and kidnap me.

I equate the whistling to the crowd of children that gathers at the back of a school bus when I am drafting off of it at 45 mph. I just look at it as a compliment.