Looks like LA's former soigneur dropped a dime on him...someone should console Spookyload.

1998 was a long time ago. It would be interesting to see how close to the Vuelta (4th place) it was though.

He's always claimed to use the altimetric chamber, EPO would be redundant then.

Looks like LA's former soigneur dropped a dime on him...someone should console Spookyload.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I made a bet (I never check the web on weekends) with a pal that U.C.H. would have a post on the subject. Thanx for being so predictable in your venom.

I made a bet (I never check the web on weekends) with a pal that U.C.H. would have a post on the subject.

I just thought it was rather funny that last week you were accusing Ulle of being a doper and now Lance is fending off allegations. I guess it didn't come as much of a surprise to you since Armstrong was part of the U.S. Olympic cycling team--the organization that developed blood doping. Isn't that team argument the very one you used to accuse Ullrich?

never accused Ulle of 'being a doper' you need to read with your mind and not your heart. I accused the EAST GERMAN sports machine of 'most likely' doping Ulle (in his teens or pre teens) without his knowledge or consent like they did every other young athelete in that era. That's what they did systematically in what they told their atheletes were 'vitamin shots'. it's why many D.D.R.Female Swimmers of that era are dying or having extreme health issues (also why many medals were pulled). you react as radically to any comment about Jan as any of those ' Lance Fan-Boys' you so love to heckle.Your enthusiasm for Jan and against Lance gives you a bias that in my experience is unparalelled in this board. It is so predictable that I made a bet that you would do what you did based solely on what I've encountered. Once again I thank you for elping me win the wager.
RE: LA, once again I don't care as I follow cycling not LA. Do I think he may have cheated? possible. did he use EPO? (yes for Cancer treatment, it's what the drug was designed for. as an enhancer? don't know.) based on his tests, no. I find the funniest thing people equating it with Pantani. So if LA and the Americans are doping (yes aware that we invented it, I live in the land of Eddy B) then somehow we must be better at alluding the authorities as our Marquis riders never get caught. Pantani's crash revelaled a Hematorcrit level of 60 and then crashed to a level in the teens until 'his' doctors arrived. His bust in the Giro once again was a plus 50. So if Lance is doping, then he's a better doper as he somehow (tested more than anyone, especially as the French until last year had a vendetta similar to yours) and USPS and found nothing. So based on the only
EVIDENCE we have (UCI and TdF tests) he and Jan, Tyler, Mayo, or MIllar for that matter (another rider in a scandal, as well as McGee) are all clean unless PROVEN guilty. To convict someone on second hand heresay is simplistic and the land of the zealots which I am not. I wish all of them a great tour, just sorry Vino and Cadel won't be there.

I just thought it was rather funny that last week you were accusing Ulle of being a doper and now Lance is fending off allegations. I guess it didn't come as much of a surprise to you since Armstrong was part of the U.S. Olympic cycling team--the organization that developed blood doping. Isn't that team argument the very one you used to accuse Ullrich?

Just out of curiosity, why do you hate Lance so much?

never accused Ulle of 'being a doper' ...

Let me get this straight. You didn't accuse Ullrich of being a doper. You just accused him of being doped. Talk about reverse homerism.

Thanks for helping me out with MY bet. I knew you wouldn't be able to admit the irony of accusing Ullrich of being a doper because he was on the East German team without accusing LA of being a doper because he was on the "We introduced blood doping to cycling" team in the states. Instead you roll out the old chestnut that he's never failed a test. Well just how many tests did Jesus Manzano fail? How about Virenque? Or Zulle? Or Rominger? Or Riis? How many tests for performance enhancing drugs has Ullrich failed? I'll clue you in on the answers. Zero. Testing has not proven to be effective.

Given the current circumstantial evidence there is no reason to accuse one over the other. Maybe the new book will change the balance since it delves into just what happened when Postal was caught disposing of drug paraphernalia during the Tour.

{[QUOTE=Utah CragHopper]Let me get this straight. You didn't accuse Ullrich of being a doper. You just accused him of being doped. Talk about reverse homerism.}

being a doper (present) and being subjected to doping beyond your knowledge or consent as a kid (past) is more of a defense of Jan then an accusation. I don't see the reverse homerism in this at all as I like Jan. Icannot prove anything, I'm not making accusations but on the assumption (conjecture) that he was treated like most or all other atheletes by the sports 'colleges' of the D.D.R. I don't think he's doped now, I even defended him when he was busted for amphetimines which he used 'recreationally' not as a performance enhancer but regardless he TESTED positive. that's proof. I also think Gibo's cocaine positve was for recreational use as well but to the UCI a BUST is a BUST. I understand this as it would be too hard to discriminate what the intended usage was for.

now regarding your bet you better have your cobetter read my e. as it doesn't support any claim you seem to make. I freely admit the US invented doping, '84 LA Olympics Eddy B, yadda yadda, see my last e. Doping then was done with a centrifuge and not EPO and pre-hematocrit TESTING, it was also many years before LA even entered the peloton. LA was 12 or so and not even a blip on the UCSF radar. So to try to compare the 2 (Jan and Lance's sport upbringing) is baseless and foundless.
Once again you seem to let your feeings interfere with your comprehension. I included almost every major rider in the TdF (Jan bust and all included) as 'most likely clean' as none have ever been caught with illegal hematocrit levels, unlike Pantani who had multiple high testings. He was also found with paraphenalia (much like the accusations about LA) but most pro's have IV's and syringes so this evidence is circumstantial and only bears weight when accompanied by failure of tests.

{Given the current circumstantial evidence there is no reason to accuse one over the other. Maybe the new book will change the balance since it delves into just what happened when Postal was caught disposing of drug paraphernalia during the Tour.}

see the key word here is CIRCUMSTANTIAL, now if you ever studied any law this term and evidence form is weak especially when it is based on heresay. it usually founders as the accuser has something to gain $$$ or a grudge to bear and this affects the quality of this form of evidence. Heck, YOU could be the author or the accuser, would your motives be subjective? Once again I only (I hate to use the word accuse) assume (admitted conjecture) that Jan (whom I like) was 'most likely' subject to some chemistry as well as many years of diet, coaching, etc.. which is why I laugh when people call him 'natural talent'. Tyler who didn't cycle seriously until his late teens or early 20's shows 'natural talent' as he succeeds without the decades of training most Euros or LA have had.

so once again when you say "...Postal was caught", who were they caught by? The author? The Assistant? if this were in court the lawyers would eat them alive as they have nothing to show for their accusations? I'm gonna bet that LA and his law team will own this author after the libel / slander suit. Once again, does it matter to me, not really.

now I gotta ask what the other person did? From where does this vitriol come? Have you ever met any of the pros? I've only met Zabel and he was great but I haver no attachment to him other than really respecting his number of Greens and longevity (oh and bike collection). It's cool to be a super fan but I think you are tad too attached to some of these guys judging by the emotional responses with which you reply. I can't imagine being so pro or anti any person I've never met (certain political figures exempted) especially a sports figure. No offense but you might wanna see someone about this, really. This much anger over strangers isn't healthy. I know you equate LA with the "jock type" were/are you pushed around and teased by the football players in high school?

Regardless, go Jan. Go Tyler, Go Iban, Go Ivan, Go Lance. Let's have a great tour.

I miss the classics already. Is it March yet?

I cannot prove anything, I'm not making accusations but on the assumption (conjecture) that he was treated like most or all other atheletes by the sports 'colleges' of the D.D.R...

Translation: "I'm not accusing him of doping, I just assume he was doping." Distinction without a difference.

Was he doping when he won the world junior championship in '93? You would think he would have noticed a sharp drop off in "talent" when he was no longer getting his drugs from the DDR.

I freely admit the US invented doping...Doping then was done with a centrifuge and not EPO and pre-hematocrit TESTING, it was also many years before LA even entered the peloton. LA was 12 or so and not even a blip on the UCSF radar. So to try to compare the 2 (Jan and Lance's sport upbringing) is baseless and foundless

And the team that started blood doping wouldn't have moved on to other things when they became available? Why not? Are the Americans somehow better than those cheating Germans? Ullrich was, what, 15 when the D.D.R. collapsed. Why do you insist on accusing Ullrich without acknowledging there is just as much, if not more, circumstantial evidence against Armstrong. And all of it is really, bloody weak. Maybe you should accuse both--or, even better, neither.

Once again I only (I hate to use the word accuse) assume (admitted conjecture) that Jan (whom I like) was 'most likely' subject to some chemistry

Do you find it necessary to accuse the guy of doping every other paragraph? Using the same logic you use against Ullrich, I suppose you will next accuse Ekimov. What about the current crop of young Italians and Spanish? The amateur scenes there are a cesspool of doping that is far worse than the former Soviet Bloc. No mystery injections there; everyone knows exactly what they are doing. Will you accuse Cunego?

"...Postal was caught", who were they caught by? The author? The Assistant? if this were in court the lawyers would eat them alive as they have nothing to show for their accusations?

WTF? Hit Google, dude, so you know what you are talking about. It was well reported a few years ago. The laboratory analysis of the goods Postal disposed of was published throughout France. Does it mean Armstrong was doping? No, not even close. But it does raise some questions about what was going on in team Postal.

now I gotta ask what the other person did? From where does this vitriol come?

Oh, so now you switch to the ad hominem attack. Cute. Why don't you tell us what you have against Ullrich, Germans, and, apparently, the French? Let me make some guesses, much like you are so fond of doing. You get your news "fair and balanced" from Fox and the orders have come down from up high that all good, red blooded, god fearing Americans are to disparage the French and Germans.

TROLL! Utah CragHopper is a troll, nothing more. Don't worry about arguing with him anymore ATP as he has shown his true colors in this thread. Waste of time. ATP, your arguments here are logical. UCH--Quit wasting people's time and get on with your life.

here I'll put it in matrix form and since you seem to understand ad hominum I assume you've studied some logic (once again logical inference)

A) the East German Sports Machine (or insert Warsaw Pact Countries) had a systematic doping plan for it's young atheletes in the 80's where most or all young atheletes were doped (steroids, HGH, EGH etc..)
B) Jan Ullrich was a young athelete in the DDR system in the 80's
therefore we can infer Logically
C) Jan Ullrich was most likely doped (once again NOT HIS FAULT)

in contrast
A) The US Olympic Team was using brand new blood doping technology on it's Olympic Cycling
(mostly track) Team
B) LA had nothing to do with this program as he was 12 and not even involved with any National organized US cycling program (he was racing tri's)
therefore
C) LA was most likely not doped in this era

or
A) The US had no 'early development program' similar to the Cold War Era Warsaw Pact countries (we don't take kids out of grammar school (private Gymnastics camps excluded, but once again not a National Program) to begin their training etc..
B) Since there is no 'program' of this sort, no systematic doping could have occured
therefore
C) it is highly unlikely that US atheletes were doped in their adolescence by any Association, State Sponsored School etc...

now with a name like UCH I'm confused about your nationality, one would assume by your handle you are a MTBer from Moab but I know this to be false. If you've ever had any experience with the UCSF or any of the American Cycling Organizations you'd know how lacking they are in organization, unity etc.. and have nowhere near the budget or bureacracy to carry out any systematic doping. The youth program in the US is a joke, it's mostly regional and to give an example a private business (Cyclocrossworld) seeks donations from it's patrons to help support the US cx program. Doping occurs in the US mostly from 'private' industries and/to individuals but is not implemented by the USOC, AAU or any other group on a wholesale level like the Eastern Bloc of the 80's.

as far as Eki, Vino...yes most likely, Eki probably for sure as he was part of the Red Machine from those days. (once again apply the matrix and insert Eki, Vino, Kivi (rest his soul) etc...)

so yes I ASSUME on a logical inference, I don't ACCUSE as if it did happen it was beyond their knowledge and/or control. See I see these guys as 'victims' not as perpetraitors. I hold them in high esteem and without any responsiblity, that it was 'done' to them.
You keep failing to see this as once again your 'passion' seems to interfere with your logic.
RE: ad hominum, close but not quite. It's not an attack if I ask where your anger comes from, when it is obvious that this stuff evokes an emotional response from you. I don't say you are stupid, dumb, foolish, nor do I make any references to your sexuality (as you have done in previous e's) or any lifestyle choices(these would be ad hominum). I'm simply stating by your reaction and misinterpretation of things that you are having a visceral vs. cerbral response. Your comment about Eki is a classic example as you again are somehow inferring that I'm a LA or USPS backer which I've explained to you a zillion times I'm not. So you think by using Eki (USPS) that you have somehow made a point and 'caught me' (similar to your other 'catches') when I'm actually in agreement as I call them as I see them and not how I feel.
Any eastern bloc rider who spent their youth at a 'sports college' probably had some crap pumped or fed into them. So can you claim any argumentative victory? no you've actually added to my point. You also failed (again) to note that I think Jan is a great rider, regardless of the fact that I don't buy the 'natural talent' argument so often used. Underachiever-yes, huge talent-yes but to infer that someone whose probably had 20 plus years of cycling coaching etc.. as 'natural' is illogical.
so in conclusion: 'lighten up Francis"

One side:

1) The D.D.R. had an organized doping program. Aside from blood doping, drugs from this era had little proven effect on aerobic endurance sports.
2) Ulle was a preteen and very early teen before reunification. Maybe he was doped but it's a rather young age. I wouldn't assume anything given his age and the crudeness of the drug technology.

Other side:

1) The U.S. had an organized doping program in the 80's.
3) Armstrong was involved in the early 90's.
3) It's logical to assume the U.S. moved from blood doping to EPO when it became available in '88 since EPO is a much easier doping method.
4) Maybe Armstrong was doped then along with the rest of the '92 team--just like '84. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe none of the '92 team was.
5) Postal was caught disposing of Actovegin along with other substances.
6) Former teammate at Motorola has talked about doping at the team.
7) Postal's former soigneur has talked about doping in the team.

Both weak circumstantial cases. And yet Ullrich is the only one of the two you are "assuming" was doped.

Given that doping is the most scurrilous charges you can make against a modern cyclist, I wouldn't go around a public forum "assuming" anyone was doped up without better evidence, especially as anything that happened 15 years ago has no current effect.

Now that Miller has been outed, we can burn him at the stake, though. :-)

exactly my point and as I said (in agreement) they (east bloc) were most likely doped as adolescents and most likely w/ steroids and growth hormones, no effect on LTR, anaerobic levels or hematocrit levels but big effect on muscle developement. and I don't hold them responsible and it's why I keep referring to it as 'were doped' (past tense and beyond knowledge). Once again I've never stated whether Armstrong is a doper or not, I'm just saying if he did it wasn't related to the 84 scandal or likely the various US Cycling or Olympic Associations. Eddy B the man at the helm in 84 was let go as was his staff from this if memory serves me right. Any doping prior to LA's Cancer is useless as EPO is standard meds for Chemo patients so I'm sure he had his fill.
If he did dope (conjecture) it was most likely through his dealings with Dr Ferrari. Once again you seem to think me a LA fan/apologist whatever and I'm not. I just am a bike fan and agree we need to clean up the sport. I just don't believe in jumping to conclusions w/out evidence. Even the Kelme scandal is suspect as the rider making the allegations (Jesus) has a serious axe to grind and therefore is motives ergo his testimony are highly suspect. Until material evidence is provided to match the testimony I just don't buy it.
In Millar's case, yup Gaumont spilled the beans, Millars apartment provided the evidence
( what an idiot, in the midst of all this why would anyone have stuff around ) and ole David fessed up. Bang, Guilty. So once again than if we are to assume everybody (or close to) is doping then somehow the Americans are better as they don't get caught. It's hard to believe that amongst all the tests and raids etc.. they've never turned up anything concrete against USPS and they tried like fiends a few years ago. In the duration we've had 2 major French squads at least the same of Italian and a Spanish team suspect (Kelme so far but I'm not convicting yet). Considering that the sport is held in their homelands it would mean more available places to 'stash'. A foreign team, USPS, Selle Columbia etc.. by nature (on the road) should be easier to catch transporting or holding substances as they have no home base (unless you count Gerona) but would be more likely to be 'holding' in hotels busses etc.. Festina was caught w/ Grote Belge a mixture of Moprhine, Cocaine, Cortisone and few other sorted chems. I'm just amazed that Cofidis is going down to something as 'basic and old' as EPO. Since the Team is built around Millar my guess is Cofidis will fold. Personally not as an LA fan but I think they've been cursed since their failure to honor his contract during his illness. Nothing but hardships and woe (Bobby J's 3rd in the Tour excluded) basically since that time. I think we can play the funeral march for them. Millar's gonna be looking for a job and it may be tough.

Looks like LA's former soigneur dropped a dime on him...someone should console Spookyload.
What is your point. Are you just trying to be the biggest troll of all time? You seem to need attention, so you post these things to get a rise out of people. Do I care if he used EPO? No. Do I think he did? No. He has probably been drug tested more than any human alive. He seems to pass them all.

So a lacky who wants to write a story, but really has nothing of noteriety to put in it. Here is an idea...say you saw Lance doping first hand. Have zero proof, and sit on it for five years. That will make you some money for sure.

Are you the type of person that always cheers against the home team? You probably hate whatever sports team is doing well because it gives you something to argue with people about at work/school. You probably don't listen to the radio because there is nothing worth listening to on it compared to your inside knowlege of what real music is. I know people like you. The sad thing is in your attempt to be so different, you put yourself right into another stereo type...the rebel. The same personality traits as the kid riding his skateboard down the street with blue hair and his "Cure" concert T shirt with black jeans in the middle of summer. Get a life.