I know it's not the tubeset that provides the ride, so much as the craftsman who built it, but let's assume the builder is one of the good ones.

I'm curious if anybody has ridden or owns an S3 frame that can compare it to a traditional (likely heavier) steel frame they've owned or ridden with similar fit / geometry. Does it still 'feel' like steel? Did the S3 frame jump out at you with anything different?

Would you still pay the premium for S3 over less costly (but still lightweight) tubesets such as Foco, Life, OX Platinum, 853, etc...

With 953 being the newest super-steel (and priced accordingly) S3 kinda looks like a better value than ever. :)

boron xl, pinarello opera (eom 16.5), waterford 1200 (753 i think), all steel colnago master, serotta coors light, coppi genius carbon (genius tubing), moser tk1 (zero ht)
and 2 s3 bikes--kelly luscious and waterford r33.
all had great rides--i do feel some of the better frames i've ridden are almost as comfortable and most offer more stiffness and handle faster (design more than material). nothing beats good steel for a 5-6 hr weekend ride though.
i sold them all except for the serotta (in storage at my folk's for when i visit) and the r33, which i will sell this spring. now with 2 kids i just don't want to deal with steel, rain, and salt.
anyway, s3 does have a steel ride, but it is more harsh to me than the older super comfy steel. but some of this is of course the design. my kelly was a super compact design--stiff and handled so well--except on descents i missed clamping the top tube. the r33 is a responsive bike. waterford also has alternate geometries that are more comfort oriented--check their website for details--basically there is no stock r33-they build it as you want it.
my r33 has a steel fork, but with a carbon fork it ways less than my ti merlin. in short--it is light and it is steel--a good builder can make you a bike with s3 that will ride and perform as you want.
good luck
jim

nothing beats good steel for a 5-6 hr weekend ride though.

In the constant quest to squelch baseless claims, have you ridden a good Ti frame? You would not be able to tell the difference if the frame was painted, except of course that the Ti bike was lighter for the same durability, and more expensive. :)

litespeed liege--way stiff
colnago titanio--not nearly as nice a ride as the colnago master
merlin extralight--this is closer to steel, but still it is not as good as any steel bike i had/have. all were on either campy proton or eurus, same saddle, same post except the moser had a cool proprietary quill carbon. 3 had steel forks (waterford, moser, colnago) , the pinarello opera had it's house fork, the others had reynolds ouzo

I knew a guy who could run a sub-5 min mile in high tops, and did no better and felt nothing in running shoes--but he was obviously tough in the feet.

maybe others are tough in the saddle/hands--me, i have done enough 5 hour sunday rides on several bikes on the exact same route to know which feels more lively, comfortable, which is stiffer, which handles better.

not saying it is right for everyone, but the s3 tubing can make a wonderful bike--certainly the r33 is better than the ti bikes i have ridden.

plus, steel is usually much more affordable--now if you are paying waterford to make you an r33, you can probably find a merlin or such for the same. but like i said, i've sold my kelly, and will sell the r33--so there is always that option--wait for one to come up that fits.

since i am on the puget sound, i am electing to keep the merlin and sell the steel--if i was still back in maryland--well i bought the merlin only because we came here.

this is all just opinion--mine is between the 2 i find the ride of steel, including S3, to be better.
jim

I have a few thousand miles on an S3 frame built by Sacha White. Like any decent, well-designed, well-built frame, it's a pleasure to ride. Aside from Sacha's artistry, the biggest selling point for this material is weight - with Record, some reasonably light wheels and plain old components (Pave, WCS, Newton) the bike weighs in at just over 17 pounds in size 57. The bare frame weighed about 3.2 lbs.

It is very similar to the performance of 953 (I have about 300 miles on that frame) with the only major difference again being weight. The S3 frame was about .3 lbs. lighter than the 953 frame. The biggest deal with the 953 frame is the really nice job Carl Strong did in putting it together coupled with the great powder job by Spectrum. The 953 is a very smooth frame, but perhaps a hair more so than the S3.

Both of them are very similar to frames I have in 853, Ultra Foco and EOM16.5 leading me to conclude that just about every well-designed, well-built frame in any reasonably light steel is going to be a keeper.

Would I pay a premium? Well, yes, I did. But I did so out of curiosity - technological advancements in materials intrigue me and I like to spend my time and money on whatever is at the cutting edge at the moment. I would not pay the premium thinking that I would be getting a "better" bike, because frankly just about every well-designed, well-built frame in any reasonably light steel is going to be a keeper. Sorry to be repetitive but that is the way I feel when it comes to bikes of this caliber. A fine 853 bike will give you just as much satisfaction albeit (perhaps) in a heavier format.

thread drift.............
"yes i have had many steel--depends on what you want, boron xl, pinarello opera (eom 16.5)," So what was your opinion of the Pinarello opera? why did you get rid of it?

I needed some cash for unexpected home repairs, and i had a bianchi boron xl which rode almost as well. I was never a fan of the carbon monostay in terms of looks, and i knew the opera would have a better resale so i sold it. of the steel bikes i had, the only thing more comfortable was the waterford 1200. the pinarello was more fun simply because it was faster uphills--it was both lighter and stiffer, and it had crisper handling.
one just sold on ebay for under 1300 as a complete bike, which is pretty sweet. the gray to black colors really look better in person than in pictures--several times i passed people out on river road and got comments on the bike's looks.

happy riding
jim

S3 uses "aluminum like" large diameter tubes that are drawn very thin - particularly on the butted ends. EOM16.5 and Spirit are similar. You can expect these frames to be very light but ride more harshly than smaller diameter tubed frames. The next tier of framesets use smaller diameter, and thicker, tubes - 853, TT Platinum, Dedacciai Zero, etc. These tubesets are harder to generalize about though since they come with more optional tubes which can significantly change the characterists of a frame depending on which specific tubes are selected. The devil is in the details.

Does anyone have an opinion to offer about the Salsa S3 frame? Other than the fact that it's red...

(edited: weird typo)

I don't have the "steel" experiance as some others but I do have some experiance with S3. I've owned an 853, S3, and Focco, as well as an old jamis 531. My Indy Fab is 853 "pro" and my Strong is S3. The 853 is smoother, but I love the lively ride of the S3. And much to the displeasure of my fellow Moots Brethern, I find myself constantly taking my Strong out and leaving the others in the Den. Carl did an awesome job, and I agree with what Terry said, any type of tubing made buy a quality builder is gonna be a keeper. To answer your question, would I pay a premium for S3? When my turn comes up for Sacha to build me a Vanilla, it will be S3. By the way my Strong is 17.5 lbs with heavy wheels and Shimano 9 speed. My IF is 18.5 lbs with lighter custom wheels, and Shimano 9 speed.

hope that was a weird typo
jim

I have talked to Dean/Ionic about an S3 frame, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. Has anyone gone that route or do you go builder first then tubeset?

Builder first, tubeset second. If you're going custom.

I just received my Strong frame from Carl. I'm waiting on the build, so I'll have to report on that part, but the frame itself is a "custom Blend" of S3, Columbus Life and the seat tube is Foco for durability. I think that Phat&Slow and TerryB are correct. It's the builder's interpretation of what you want/need. Go with a good builder and as long as you can communicate your needs, you'll get what you want.

I have a curtlo s3 ,I love the ride its kind of like ti and sorta like carbon .very comfortable on those long century plus rides. Plus its fairly lite at sixteen pounds .Have a custom build you,ll love it .:thumbsup:

Please feel very free to post pix of that Strong prior to (and after) building it up.

OT: it seems like no matter how many builders I explore, I find myself wanting to have Carl build me a bike. I had several really good conversations with him last Summer and feel like he "gets it." It seems like he could build a frame out of cast iron drain pipe and the ride reports would be good. PLMK if I have it right.

Here is a preview.....hopefully built in two weeks...unless someone wants to donate a 2007 Campy Centaur group and then it would be the day after....

That bike is amazing. Why oh why didn't I send Carl a deposit before the price increase?

What is frame weight, what fork will you use, check GVH for a good price on the new Centaur stuff. Start a new topic for that sweet bike.

Here is a preview.....hopefully built in two weeks...unless someone wants to donate a 2007 Campy Centaur group and then it would be the day after....

Taken on the desk at Spectrum.

Nice frame.

The blue is actually darker in person. Frame weight before powder coat 3.2 lbs, 55 cm tt, 73 degree head tube 74 degree seat tube, 410 mm chainstays, 80mm BBdrop. Have checked all pricing, i just have a huge anchor to sell before I can pull the debit card trigger. I'm getting the 07 Centaur Crank from the LBS for mostly cheap, am putting a Columbus Carve fork for now...Alpha Q is promised by the end of the year. You all know anyone who wants to buy a 76 Wagoneer for really, really cheap?

That bike is amazing. Why oh why didn't I send Carl a deposit before the price increase?


:D That's exactly what I did. Carl built me a 29'r mtb in 2003 and I knew I'd be back for a road frame.

Trying to decide between straight-gauge Ti, S3, or his excellent Custom Blend steel frame.

S3 would just be subsituted for OX Platinum in TT & DT, then S3 seatstays instead of Life. Chainstays & ST would be Life.

Not much weight savings from standard tubes to S3, maybe 1/3 lb. 1/2 lb savings for Ti. 55cm compact frame...

I have a Strong Custom Blend steel frame on order and was open to any material and tube set when going through the design process. I went over my riding style and uses with Carl and he recommended the Custom Blend frame. Weight wasn't my #1 priority.

I bought a used Yamaguchi S3 (w/Alpha Q Sub 3) about a year ago and I just love it. It is a serious sloper (45 seat tube, 54 effective top tube) and weighed in a 3.25#. I really like the non-traditional tubes. The True Temper website discusses at length the rationale for the tubing shapes. Who am I to argue w/engineers and computer analysis? The Yama rides great. It has the legendary "steel feel" and it is also nicely stiff for sprinting/climbing (situations I am not renowed for). Equipped w/Veloflex tubulars and Chorus 9 it probably weighs in the 17# region. Lite, not stupid light. Ah!

I have a S3 Ionic Nemis frame(electric blue) that I bought from Dean / ionic . Its a compact frame and the welds are tight. Going to start the build as soon as I make a decision on a new fork.
Frame looks great. The only advice is to nail John down on a delivery date.

Can you post a pic of the frame? Did Spectrum paint it.

IONIC S3 NEMIS 58cm compact. I was told that Spectrum does the powdercoat
I'm trying decide on a new fork Alpha Q (GS10 or sub-3) or Reynolds UL(300 Grams) on a side note if anyone has an opinion on forks.

The bike looks great. Did they give you the option of using Dean decals instead of Ionic? I thought John mentioned that to me once.

Also, given that it's S3, what does that beauty weigh?

I did not talk to John about the decals, cool idea.
I kind of like the idea of Ionic sub brand for steel.
The one thing I might do down the line is a custom head badge using the S3 sticker design and incorporate ionic nemis name. http://www.headbadges.com/
I'm not sure about the weight. The site lists about 3 lbs. When friends pick it up they can't believe it's steel. I have to get a scale. I can tell you it's lighter than my Alum. frame.

Does that Ionic S3 have S3 chainstays & seatstays also?

Yes, Full S3, so quite the value when buying from other small manufacturers. John even put the headset in for the cost of the part.