Check this out for some interesting reading:

http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf

It offers analysis of statistics, so we are bound to disagree on the methodology & such, but I find several interesting movements in the data:

1) Taxes are lower in the US and in EU
2) The standard of living in the US is higher
3) People in the US work more hours than in EU

One can reasonably argue that Europeans value leisure more make off better than Americans in the deal, but the data speaks volumes to the fact that lower taxes and hard work produce wealth. In the U.S. 45.9% of the poor own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.

I don't mean this to belittle the plight of the poor in the US, but I believe a little perspective is helpful. I may be beating a drum, but I challenge the communists and social program lovers of the board to produce evidence, aside from anecdotes, that wealth redistribution improves the lives of the poor, as a group. The boats are rising, gentlemen.

But, are the people working the longest in the US making the most money? Enjoying the highest standards of living? If not, your whole argument is out the window.

And what are the poverty statistics in these same parts of Europe? What are the standards of health, education etc.?

What you fail to realize is that the "communists and social program lovers" care about other things than amassing wealth and taking up space.

The successes and failures of the US system speak for themselves. I doubt this "perspective" will mean much to someone getting the short end of the stick in the US. "Ah, but look at the big picture. In Europe, you and your children wouldn't even have a car to live in. . ."

It is apples to oranges. Europe isn't nearly as dominated by suburbs as the US is- so homes do tend to be smaller- but how many people truly utilize all their space in a huge house? Also, with greater population density, public transportation is better developed in most of Europe- which makes a car less of a necessity.

A huge issue in Europe is how homogenous the population usually is. Also, there is more of an attitude that you are not any better than anyone else. This reduces the amount of conspicuous consumption, buying on debt, etc... and the social welfare state is designed to benefit everyone, not just a stigmatized subset of the population.

I don't really understand Europe- it seems people make less money, products cost more, there is less product selection, taxes are higher, yet on the surface, it seems most northern european countries have much higher standards of living and a better quality of life. It is really freaky.

I don't really understand Europe- it seems people make less money, products cost more, there is less product selection, taxes are higher, yet on the surface, it seems most northern european countries have much higher standards of living and a better quality of life. It is really freaky.



True, on all counts. ;)

I envy your low prices, and product choices, but we're definitely more laid back over here. I'll take six weeks a year holidays plus statutory days over a fortnight "vacation" any day. :)

Plus if I want something cheap we can't get here, I just order from over there over the net and take advatange of the superb exchange rate anyhow. ;) Just ordered some merino wool vintage cycling jerseys, bianchi shorts and mitts, dvds, a helmet and an SD card from the states...

Best of both worlds.

I've lived in both the US (mostly west coast) and in Europe (Menton, France) and I can tell you two things. First in the US I have a much better standard of living in the US if you are talking about housing, cars, material things. The second part of the equation is that living in France was the most relaxing, happiest time in my life. The stress levels in Europe are nowhere near the levels of stress I experience in the US.

One problem I have with your observations: The poor need to have cars in most cases because there is no decent public transportation. I remember back when I was poor, spending about 1/3 of my income on a succesion of ratty clunkers that I could've done without if there had been decent public transit. I even had to sell my bike to afford a car! I wouldn't have been nearly as poor if I didn't have a car back then.

One more thing-after being uninsured for about 6 of the last 10 years, a true single-payer health care system would've been better than being indigent. Luckily I didn't have any health problems, but if I had, welfare woul've been my only alternative.

Health care is the big issue not touched on by the OP. Cars? Ever lived in Paris or London? Who needs one.

Air conditioning improves quality of living?

Health care is the big issue not touched on by the OP. Cars? Ever lived in Paris or London? Who needs one.

Air conditioning improves quality of living?

Not only does Air Conditioning improve the quality of living. Here for this transplanted northerner in the South it actually gives life.

Check this out for some interesting reading:

http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf

It offers analysis of statistics, so we are bound to disagree on the methodology & such, but I find several interesting movements in the data:

1) Taxes are lower in the US and in EU
2) The standard of living in the US is higher
3) People in the US work more hours than in EU

One can reasonably argue that Europeans value leisure more make off better than Americans in the deal, but the data speaks volumes to the fact that lower taxes and hard work produce wealth. In the U.S. 45.9% of the poor own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.

I don't mean this to belittle the plight of the poor in the US, but I believe a little perspective is helpful. I may be beating a drum, but I challenge the communists and social program lovers of the board to produce evidence, aside from anecdotes, that wealth redistribution improves the lives of the poor, as a group. The boats are rising, gentlemen.

taxes are higher in the EU but everyone has health coverage and there is an effective welfare state - to reflect accurately you should add the US contribution to health care insurance etc.

standard of living higher in the US - certainly in respect to material possessions that is true - how is this measured?

low tax work hard creates wealth - for everyone or the few?

US works longer hours - yes indeed

US has shorter holidays - yes indeed

in many countries in Euroland it's not customary to own a house - it is customary to rent

in many places in the EU it is unnecessary to have a car - there is efficient and inexpensive public transport

in many places in the EU air conditioning is unnecessary for most of the year

you're comparing apples and oranges

The boats are rising, gentlemen.
But sometimes big boats swamp little ones, when this "rising" occurs.

Thought to ponder: Just as the threat of unions makes non-union bosses treat employees at least maginally better, so does the threat of socialism curb the more egregious excesses of capitalism. Unfettered capitalism leads to child labor, company stores, payment in 'scrip, sweatshops, 80 hour weeks, monopolies, environmental devastation, Robber Barons ... and you only need look at the history of American capitalism for evidence. It's all right there in America's own 19th and early 2oth Centuries.

The rise of Labor and the "threat" of socialism, coupled with citizen revulsion at the piggish abuses of unfettered capitalism, led to the election of (timid) liberal-progressives who legislatively put a leash and a muzzle on the Big Hog.

It was paltry little -- the Hog needed to be smashed, not muzzled -- but I'm not sure the "evidence" tells us capitalism makes everyone's life better. Rather, the evidence tells us America's political attack on capitalism, timid as it has been, has served to return at least some stolen labor back to the lower classes and made their life better.

21st Century Capitalst Hogs: Virtual wealth and the stock market. Enron, Global Crossing, etc. all revolve around a few people stealing a little bit (although impacting some individuals greatly) from many through the stock markets. Misinformation, lack of meaningful audit, and weak (but getting stronger) securities rules attribute to this.

I don't have the time or the energy to go through all that a point at a time, but I do want to point out that it's possible to disagree with you, Doug and Live Steam and still not be a communist. Maybe we're all just believers in the Golden Rule or something.

I wonder: where are the stats on the U.S. vs. 'Yurp individual bankruptcy rate?

Ok, so we make more money here because we work so hard and long to accumulate as much as the incessant and ubiquitous advertisers tell us to buy, blow 3 or 4 times more on credit than what we earn because our appetite for yet more conspicuous consumption is never slaked, then go broke.

Meanwhile, our kids are getting raised in seriously dysfunctional homes more often than not, divorce rates stay high, widespread alcohol/drug abuse, clinical depression, obesity, disrespect and marginalize our elderly - all of the rest of the typical 'American' maladies still remain.

Sounds like capitalist utopia to me...

Lawyers! I know you're old and all :O), but I doubt that we could ever return to the good ol' days of your childhood and the sweat shops that people had to toil in to earn a days wage :O) Lawyers protect the public from what ever injustices the big bad corporate machines could inflict. It is a heavy price to pay, as their over zealous litigiousness has caused the escalation in the cost of almost everything.

Aren't you getting tired of trolling me yet, LS?? Or was that you're attempt at an intelligent response?? :confused:

**YAWN** :rolleyes: