Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

www.rivendellbicycles.com

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

I might. I'm thinking that a nice lugged Columbine road bike with a jeweled head badge would look good in my living room.

Colnago C50 is lugged... :)

Once something you're on breaks you develop a healthy distrust of certain types of manufacture. Not that there's anything wrong with certain processes, but some processes are less tolerant of careless or cheap work. If something is built right then it will be fine. I will ride all, but prefer lugged. YMMV.

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

If you are looking for that retro, old school look, maybe for a SS or fixie or touring bike, then I think a lugged steel bike would fit the bill perfectly. If the bike has interesting lug work that are outlined, then all the better.

Mercian Cycles in the UK is a good place to start. There are several other frame makers that offer lugs as well.

http://www.vanillabicycles.com/vanilla_frames.html

Art on wheels.

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

I think most lugged rides are chosen. It's hard to find lugged frames at the lower price points anymore.

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?If I were buying, I would look in the following order:

1.) Richard Sachs

http://www.richardsachs.com/rsachs2.html

2.) Richard Sachs
3.) Richard Sachs
4.) Dave kirk
http://www.kirkframeworks.com/Photo%20Gallery.htm
5.) Vanilla
6.) Rivendell

A Lugged frame with a steel flat crown fork is just beautiful.

Len

made the choice for mine. sorry, i don't want any tig'd road frame, unless perhaps it's titanium.

and now another opprtunity to post a pic of the Mondonico.

just look at the Competitive add. I would love that Litespeed, take one in a second. But as far as "Classic", nope.

Compare the weld to the lugs posted throughout this thread. Just not the same distinctive look.

Richard Sachs or Richard Moon. Unfortunately, they have a 2+ year waiting list.

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

In the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

Well, if you want the absolute best it might just be Baylis. He worked at Masi, he knows how to build and paint.

A suprisingly good choise still out there. Just remember, a $2400 frame is not three times better than an $800 frame.

Well, not the absolute best, but a great deal perhaps, the Gios Compact Pro @$695 (excelsports.com importer/retailer). Headlugs are chrome. Some interesting details.

eBay - lugged steel is not popular, some dealers sell dead stock on eBay. I picked up a NOS Basso Loto SLX for $350 there.

Tomassini has Tecno with lots for chrome and much detail work @$1495. Maybe a better deal than Torelli or Mondonico.

Cinelli Super Corsa - classic frame built by the Columbus people in standard size nivachrome. Chrome headlugs, seat lug, stays, fork crown. Beautiful, classic, simple, elegant look. Best deal may be on eBay, there is a shop selling them there, or see gvhbikes.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=22681&item=3658434436&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

Guerciotti, Carrera, Moser - do a google search. There are shops closing them out, or call Red Rose Imports.

Although he's been mentioned a lot in this thread Sachs has a nice article on "Why choose lugs"...

http://www.richardsachs.com/articles/rsachslug1.html

I prefer his clean lines to some of the art bikes like Columbine or Moon...

http://www.bohemianbicycles.com/

my personal favorite:

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

I'm riding lugged carbon... as are many others, I'm sure. Doesn't the ubiquitous Trek 5200 have internal lugs?

for my future purchaes. A good lugged frame can easily get up in the $2K range. Just look at the pricelist for Vanilla, Richard Sachs, Rivendell sites listed above. I am not alone either. I beleive the waiting list from those builders are all over a year.

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

Hetchins

My main ride's an Atlantis, and I also have a lugged Trek tourer and a lugged Specialized Allez from the old chromoly days. Except for the Atlantis, it's mostly coincidence--they happened to be bikes I liked at prices I could afford and they happened to have lugs. There are some legitimate reasons to use lugs, though, even now--you can replace a damaged tube, for instance.
I don't think anyone could feel a difference from the saddle; I know I can't. But a nicely done lug just LOOKS so pretty. Now that my son's out of college and I'm old enough to go to the front of Grant's waiting list, I'm thisclose to ordering a Rivendell, which of course will have lugs.

I ride a Waterford and an older Trek both are lugged and silver brazed. I love lugs and steel and would not likely ride anything else.

I bought a custom lugged steel (Reynolds 853) frame and steel fork and am extremely happy with it. I find it is much easier to ride than the Litespeed Tuscany with Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork it replaced and I wouldn't consider anything else. I also don't care for those artsy lugs, but that's me. I have regular looking lugs which have the windows painted white. The frame is green and white.

Here are some pics

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?t=6259

I think my next bike will be lugged. That'll be some time, but I've got techno so now I'll get some soul.

buy and ride steel lugged bikes. Don't forget about the DeRosa NeoPrimato as a possibility.

Hand brazed in 1987 with lost wax lugs! I still ride her! I will buy another lugged steel bike!

Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

I dunno, I chose this one. 20 lbs., rides nicely, pretty as a picture (I think.) Everyone should own one lugged bike if only to keep the history alive..

As already mentioned, the Trek 5200... 5900 are lugged. And you see plenty of those on the road.

Pierre




Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

Who are the best out there for that. Mercier?

I dunno, I chose this one. 20 lbs., rides nicely, pretty as a picture (I think.) Everyone should own one lugged bike if only to keep the history alive..


Gasp! Oy my! It can't be! Could it? Is that a carbon fork on that fine steel lugged Colnago???

Gasp! Oy my! It can't be! Could it? Is that a carbon fork on that fine steel lugged Colnago???

Came that way - I had no choice !

I love my 1992-ish Waterford Paramount OS. Gorgeous lugs and a gorgeous, lively ride. Sure I'm replacing her Waterford forks w/ a Reynolds Ouzo Pro set, but all of those broken bones from superbike racing were my doing, not hers: you don't break up a good marriage for such small things.

a 77 Raleigh triple, A Centurion, and a Raleigh Technium (that my kid still rides) beautiful old fine bikes!

http://www.litman.com//bikes/eisentraut%20RawFrameMed.jpg

..no longer made but a great ride.531 lugged and smooth as buttah'.

http://www.tommasini.com/eng/telai/tecno.html

why not?

Art in motion

I came across this story the other day at http://www.bikespecialties.com/mariposa-dedebarry.html. Dede Barry, currently of T-Mobile, "wanted a steel bike, for durability and strength, with the vintage Mariposa lugs" for her 2002 World Cup race in Montreal. Her father-in-law, Mike Barry (Michael Barry's father) of www.bikespecialties.com in Toronto made it for her. It sure is a nice bike.

Even though I love a beautifully lugged bike, I would not get one at the moment. It's not the type of bike I want for my next bike.

I'm doing okay at racing right now and have my body weight down to the point that the only place I can save weight is on the bike.

Right now I'm looking at the stiff, light weight, mass produced, relatively low cost, racing frames. Yeah, I know there are some light weight lugged racing frames out there but they tend to be pricey. I want a frame I can beat to death and throw away in a couple of years after I wear it out.

I have been reading several posts in different threads the past few days and it got me thinking about taste and what is behind it. In another post, a writer said that he only wanted to ride a carbon fiber bike. I myself have had a thing for titanium and finally got one. In this thread people are getting emotional about lugged frames.

I love how our sport brings out so many different tastes. While I respect the craftsmanship and beauty of a lugged steel frame my own taste goes towards an unpainted minimalist Ti frame with discrete clean welds. I think it is the same personal taste that makes me like Japanese or Scandinavian design and architecture over Victorian flourish, or Mercedes Benz over Bentley.

Another post was asking newbies about why they got into the sport of cycling. When I look back, the reason cycling appealed to me was the mix of physical and mechanical and the way a streamlined efficient machine combined with a healthy tuned body can do such amazing things.

Sorry, I must be in a reflective mood today.

I liked lugged Heron frames so much that I bought the company!

My next bike will be steel, and hopefully lugged. Heron (see the earlier post) is one that's high on my list. My current primary road bike is a typical light, racey Aluminum design and it has served me well. I also, however, have an older lugged-steel Trek that I set up as a bad-weather, general-purpose bike and I love riding that thing. It is more of a "sport-tour" design with longer stays, relaxed geometry, etc. It weighs about as much as some motorcycles, especially with rack, fenders, lights, etc., but the ride is wonderful. Riding it has convinced me that I want a steel bike of similar design, but built with more modern frame tubing and components for lighter weight and better performance. I don't race -- just ride for fun and fitness -- but put in some decent miles and do a lot of climbing in the Colorado mountains. Some of the pictures in this thread really get me dreaming.
JM

I like the durability, ride, repairability, and look of a lugged frame. Here's mine, in fact, as pictured on the Vanilla web site:

as you can by the response. there are lots of folks who get lugged bikes by choice. the last couple of bikes i've bought are older lugged Gios' that i plan to clean and fix up. other then lugs, i prefer fillet brazed frames. my current 'modern' bike is fillet brazed. i don't think i could ever buy another tigged frame. they just don't look as nice and since i don't race, performance is not the most important thing for me.

Compared to Jack Taylor. The lugs aren't that visible in the picture. BTW, this is now a fixie.

Compared to Jack Taylor. The lugs aren't that visible in the picture. BTW, this is now a fixie.


gimme the jack taylor, the one w/ "bad mother f$&** written on the saddlebag.. (pulp fiction)

I've a Guerciotti, a Rivendelle Ramboullet, and a Merckx Corsa. They are beautiful to look at, and they offer a nice ride. I'm not a competitive ride, so no worry there. Oh, and my old college days 10 speed Raleigh Gran Prix. All lugged frames. I do have one tigged frame road bike and also a mountain bike. I don't have any aluminum, titanium, or carbon frame bikes.

1991 Tommasini Diamante
Columbus MS

Lugged and loving it

This bicycle is far and away the greatest piece of machinery I'd ever ridden. Better than the Litespeed Ultimate, Classic, and Merlin, hands down. Up there with the 93 Basso Loto. Feels a little sliggish at times, but fast as hell.

Sorry for the repeat pic-- just everyone else is doing it so I want to show and tell too.

Lugged and loving it

Down tube shifters look great. How many gears? I love the steel fork, quill stem and the wheels. If it is a 58cm you are welcome to send it to me. How many spokes in those wheels? I have 32 in mine and those look as if they may be 36ers.

What a nice collection of beautiful frames!

Most say lugs, for all their beauty and craftsmanship, contribue nothing to the quality of the ride, and riding, you can't tell the difference between lugs or tig welds. But in the 70s and 80s, frame builders argued over the merits of short point vs. long point lugs, investment castings vs.stamped steel, silver brazing vs. copper brazing, and how all these things varied the characteristics of how the frame performed and the feel of the ride.

I have two mid-eighties bikes, both lugged steel. One is a DeRosa, Columbus SL with an SLX seat tube. It has short point lugs, flared only a half inch or so out along the tubes. Their flanges are less than 1/4" from the tube junctions, a very minimal, lightweight design. These lugs also hug the shape of the tube junctions, like a finished tig-weld. Long forks extend from a flat fork crown, at the time, a DeRosa trademark. It makes a light fork, surprisingly. The larger area of the crown spreads out dampening over more surfaces than a more compact semi-sloping or fully sloping crown.

These lugs give the bike a "supple" feel. Solidly copper brazed, they make the tube junctions very stiff, making transfer of energy and road feel very efficient. The tubes can dampen vibrations along their entire lengths, right up to the junctions. Hammering up a hill, the bike responds with every pedal stroke, thanks to those well brazed, tight lugs. As the longish frame tubes flex a bit to round off resistance to pedaling effort, they are always reigned in by those stiff lugs, and the bike shoots straight ahead. I think all hand brazed lugged frames have these characteristics, and machine made versions aspire to them. The tubing is thin and flexible, which makes comfort, but the joints are very stiff, transferring power and control without dissipating any energy.

The other bike, a tourer, uses long point lugs. They're flared over an inch along the tubes, and round off or fill in the angles of the junctions. The tubing is the same, SL-SLX, but the fork crown is "fully sloping" which holds shorter fork blades, providing a more direct path for road vibrations to go into the frame.

This bike feels much stiffer than the DeRosa. The lugs re-inforce more length of tubing, taking away a degree of "suppleness" that is noticed in the final miles of a long ride. The bike only feels "supple" when loaded up with panniers or a day's groceries on a trunk rack. That's where it shines. The loads can jiggle all they want but those long point lugs keep everything under control. The frame doesn't go noodly, like most lightweight frames would when heavily loaded. The load just make it more resilient, all thanks to those lugs, which transfer energy to the middle of the tubes to be dissipated, away from the tube junctions.

Nelson Vails, the track star, said once, "It's all in the lugs." He was referring to how efficiently his lugged steel track bike tranferred his awesome power to the tarmac, and how great it felt winding up a sprint in the bell lap.

i'd order a richard sach or
a lugged (if possible) *Dedacciai EOM 16.5 (italian steel with the strongest KSI rating, 220)
compact, Ferrari red
with Campy 10 (Record, if that's what i can afford with cash on hand, at that time)
goal: a stiff 16 pound steel road race bike

i just bought a new steel road bike, a tigged Dedacciai EOM 16.5 with Chorus, for racing.

i'm considering getting a lugged mtb frame...



*Dedacciai
EOM 16.5 (boron) Proprietary low carbon microalloy steel 220 ksi 9% Dedacciai's lightest steel tubeset (among the lightest steel available). Not for the faint at heart; a true 'raceday-only' tubeset. Extremely difficult to work with and even harder to get.
from
http://www.strongframes.com/index.php?get=Frame%20Tube%20Specifications&nav=Tech%20Geek%20Love

[QUOTE=Flip Flash]Looking at bikes it looks like you can go performance at various levels by price, but are there any riders who ride lugged bikes by choice.

yes, next time. who's got the lightest racing lugged frame?

i purchased a light tigged-welded steel [EOM 16.5 Dedacciai] bike cause that whole chorus bike cost me less than one good lugged frame (glad i didn't see this discussion a week ago, or i'd have spent double what i did) which is fine cause i iwsh to race it hard (which means things will break, sooner than later)

after i've purchased a santa cruz vp-free dh-trail mtb, the next road raceframe will be a lugged: a richard sach (aieee, the waiting!) or a tomasinni ultrafire [EOM 16.5 Dedacciai].

http://www.richardsachs.com/03signature_gallery/index.html
vs.
[url]http://www.tommasini.com/eng/telai/ultra_fire.html

I think you are confusing things here. The touring bike likely has much thicker tubing, especially in the rear triangle and fork blades, to withstand the twisting of heavily loaded panniers. I'd bet you've got a 1.0-0.8-1.0 (I think...) SP downtube, and SP stays / blades.

While I agree that the springiness of a steel or titanium frame can make a bike feel faster in a sprint, if that's how you like your bikes to feel. I love the feel of a frame with the "right" amount of flex. But I doubt that a stopwatch could tell the difference, or a power meter. It's a purely subjective phenomenon.

Don't bother trying to pin down exact physical reasons for your subjective assessments of bicycle feel. Even when subjective preference is consistent over time, as yours (and mine) seem to be.

This mirrors a debate in audio circles. The camp that says "If it cannot be measured by currently available equipment, or explained by current theory, it cannot exist" vs the camp that says, "I don't care if it's physics or divine intervention, I hear what I hear, and that's what's important".

I tend to fall into the latter camp, and I'm an aspiring electrical engineer and stereo geek. What I hear (or feel) is mine alone, and, to the extent that those impressions are consistent over time and experience, they constitute "reality", at least as my senses and mind are perceiving it. This is not the "placebo effect", a permanent physical change in the body as a result of the influnce of the mind. Don't forget, the people in clinical trial who get better on the placebo, still get better. It's the drug, not the patient, that is being evaluated.

It simply means that human perception, whether through the senses evolution gave us or the extensions to those senses we have created for ourselves, can never perfectly capture reality. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem has an analog in the real world.

I'm sure you feel exactly what you say you feel. I'm also sure that the lugs are not the cause, at least not in the way you've described.

--Shannon

made the choice for mine. sorry, i don't want any tig'd road frame, unless perhaps it's titanium.

and now another opprtunity to post a pic of the Mondonico.

wow, nice looker, that rufus's Mondonico

oohhh that sure is pretty...

What a nice collection of beautiful frames!

Most say lugs, for all their beauty and craftsmanship, contribue nothing to the quality of the ride, and riding, you can't tell the difference between lugs or tig welds. But in the 70s and 80s, frame builders argued over the merits of short point vs. long point lugs, investment castings vs.stamped steel, silver brazing vs. copper brazing, and how all these things varied the characteristics of how the frame performed and the feel of the ride.

I have two mid-eighties bikes, both lugged steel. One is a DeRosa, Columbus SL with an SLX seat tube. It has short point lugs, flared only a half inch or so out along the tubes. Their flanges are less than 1/4" from the tube junctions, a very minimal, lightweight design. These lugs also hug the shape of the tube junctions, like a finished tig-weld. Long forks extend from a flat fork crown, at the time, a DeRosa trademark. It makes a light fork, surprisingly. The larger area of the crown spreads out dampening over more surfaces than a more compact semi-sloping or fully sloping crown.

These lugs give the bike a "supple" feel. Solidly copper brazed, they make the tube junctions very stiff, making transfer of energy and road feel very efficient. The tubes can dampen vibrations along their entire lengths, right up to the junctions. Hammering up a hill, the bike responds with every pedal stroke, thanks to those well brazed, tight lugs. As the longish frame tubes flex a bit to round off resistance to pedaling effort, they are always reigned in by those stiff lugs, and the bike shoots straight ahead. I think all hand brazed lugged frames have these characteristics, and machine made versions aspire to them. The tubing is thin and flexible, which makes comfort, but the joints are very stiff, transferring power and control without dissipating any energy.

The other bike, a tourer, uses long point lugs. They're flared over an inch along the tubes, and round off or fill in the angles of the junctions. The tubing is the same, SL-SLX, but the fork crown is "fully sloping" which holds shorter fork blades, providing a more direct path for road vibrations to go into the frame.

This bike feels much stiffer than the DeRosa. The lugs re-inforce more length of tubing, taking away a degree of "suppleness" that is noticed in the final miles of a long ride. The bike only feels "supple" when loaded up with panniers or a day's groceries on a trunk rack. That's where it shines. The loads can jiggle all they want but those long point lugs keep everything under control. The frame doesn't go noodly, like most lightweight frames would when heavily loaded. The load just make it more resilient, all thanks to those lugs, which transfer energy to the middle of the tubes to be dissipated, away from the tube junctions.

Nelson Vails, the track star, said once, "It's all in the lugs." He was referring to how efficiently his lugged steel track bike tranferred his awesome power to the tarmac, and how great it felt winding up a sprint in the bell lap.

hey... i almost climaxed on those lugs. is that "erotic bike prose"?

[QUOTE=Fredrico]What a nice collection of beautiful frames!

Most say lugs, for all their beauty and craftsmanship, contribue nothing to the quality of the ride, and riding, you can't tell the difference between lugs or tig welds. But in the 70s and 80s, frame builders argued over the merits of short point vs. long point lugs, investment castings vs.stamped steel, silver brazing vs. copper brazing, and how all these things varied the characteristics of how the frame performed and the feel of the ride./QUOTE]

My current bike is the first lugged steel bike I've owned in about 30 years so I have nothing to compare it to. The builder of my bike insists that stamped lugs provide a better ride than cast lugs and gave me a 15 minute explanation on why that is. He also does copper brazing for the lugs. He uses silver for some things, but says the copper flows much better and prefers that for the lugs. I knew nothing about any of this at the time and still know very little. I do love the way it rides.

Thank you FlipFlash for starting this thread. There are many beautiful bikes displayed in here.

I think you are confusing things here. The touring bike likely has much thicker tubing, especially in the rear triangle and fork blades, to withstand the twisting of heavily loaded panniers. I'd bet you've got a 1.0-0.8-1.0 (I think...) SP downtube, and SP stays / blades.

While I agree that the springiness of a steel or titanium frame can make a bike feel faster in a sprint, if that's how you like your bikes to feel. I love the feel of a frame with the "right" amount of flex. But I doubt that a stopwatch could tell the difference, or a power meter. It's a purely subjective phenomenon.

Don't bother trying to pin down exact physical reasons for your subjective assessments of bicycle feel. Even when subjective preference is consistent over time, as yours (and mine) seem to be.

This mirrors a debate in audio circles. The camp that says "If it cannot be measured by currently available equipment, or explained by current theory, it cannot exist" vs the camp that says, "I don't care if it's physics or divine intervention, I hear what I hear, and that's what's important".

I tend to fall into the latter camp, and I'm an aspiring electrical engineer and stereo geek. What I hear (or feel) is mine alone, and, to the extent that those impressions are consistent over time and experience, they constitute "reality", at least as my senses and mind are perceiving it. This is not the "placebo effect", a permanent physical change in the body as a result of the influnce of the mind. Don't forget, the people in clinical trial who get better on the placebo, still get better. It's the drug, not the patient, that is being evaluated.

It simply means that human perception, whether through the senses evolution gave us or the extensions to those senses we have created for ourselves, can never perfectly capture reality. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem has an analog in the real world.

I'm sure you feel exactly what you say you feel. I'm also sure that the lugs are not the cause, at least not in the way you've described.

--Shannon

You're right: now I remember the framebuilder telling me, back in '85, that he used SP in the rear triangle and forks, and SLX or SP in the downtube, which would probably feel about the same. The stiff feel of the ride is mainly because of the more "robust" tubes, as you suggest.

Nonetheless, the lugwork compliments the integrity of those tubes. How well the tubes are joined together makes a key contribution to handling and responsiveness. A good investment cast lug contributes an integrity all its own to the tube junctions. It's molecular integrity isn't destroyed by welding, so it will handle stress with absolute ease, and spread it out over the tubing it's brazed onto. Unless a lugged frame is heated too much in the brazing and loses it's elasticity, it will last a life-time. A TIG welded frame may also last forever, but anecdotal evidence to the contrary keeps popping up. A TIG weld destroys only a small amount of metal, but this critcal juncture loses it's elasticity, it's ability to handle repeated stress. That's where frames always break, at a weld. It can't be as strong as an investment cast piece of metal shaped to fit like a glove over the tubes it's holding under a thin film of melted copper.

I agree with you that how one feels the bike responding to various stresses is what one makes of it, and that's dependent on the personality of the rider and how it is expressed riding the bike. But subtle ride qualities intentionally built into a frame can communicate the same feelings to many riders, like a good work of art. Furthurmore, the rider adapts to the bike in time, learns what the bike can do and how to ride it, how to accomodate it's personality. Objectivity gets clouded over the longer a great relationship endures, but one always remembers the initial infatuation.