I had a bike fit done a couple of years ago. I have kept my bike setup the same since then and have been comfortable.

As I was watching the ToC it occurred to me (I am slow) that these guys knees didn't come up nearly as high as mine do. I'll bet mine were at least about 90 degrees. Well I played around with the height and seat position. I ended up raising the seat up 3/4" and some minor seat adjustments. My knees are still bent at the bottom of the downstroke, but they don't bend nearly as much at the top.

Today was the maiden voyage. We went for a 40 mile ride with a couple of friends. At first the bike felt very odd, but not in a bad uncomfortable way. I also found that I was able to maintain a better pace. The main thing was that I was able to climb right along with my friends who usually have to wait at the top for me. I was amazed.

So for all you physiologists....Should an adjustment like this make this much of a difference?

The desired angle at bottom of pedal stroke is somewhere between 25-35 degrees when measured with a goniometer. There have been studies on this method vs. heel on pedal vs. 109% inseam and they all come in pretty close.

http://www.asep.org/files/PevelerSaddle.pdf

don't forget that when you raise your seat you are also moving it back. You can use a plumb line to see where your knee is with respect to your pedal (check a bike fitting website/book for details).

Many people feel moving back improves climbing power. Saddle height also depend on what sort of pedal stroke you have-whether your heel is above/below your toes through the stroke etc. I've found through the years that I feel most comfortable with my saddle about 1cm higher than the formulas put me.

well i didnt get much feedback to my original question.....oh well

I went riding today with a friend who ALWAYS climbs stronger than me. For the first time ever I beat him up a hill that he normally has to wait for me at the top!!!!!:thumbsup:

So, it seems to be working I am going to keep the new changes

Here's some basic fit info. If you use a plumb bob to check knee over pedal (KOP)relationship, be sure the bike is setting on a level floor or the reading will be worthless.

www.coloradocyclist.com/bikefit

As a rough guideline for saddle height, your foot should be horizontal with the leg locked at the bottom of the stroke. Then a 2cm rise in the heel while pedaling will produce about a 30 degree bend in the leg at the bottom of the stroke.

As others noted, moving the saddle up 2cm also moves it back 6mm (1/4 inch). Not a big deal, but it also increases the reach to the handlebars and the drop from the saddle to the bars. A typical bike shop setup will be conservative on both drop and reach, so you may have no problem adapting to the new position.

The desired angle at bottom of pedal stroke is somewhere between 25-35 degrees when measured with a goniometer. There have been studies on this method vs. heel on pedal vs. 109% inseam and they all come in pretty close.

http://www.asep.org/files/PevelerSaddle.pdf

Thanks for the article!

Here's some basic fit info. If you use a plumb bob to check knee over pedal (KOP)relationship, be sure the bike is setting on a level floor or the reading will be worthless.
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I don't pay much attention to fit details because I'm comfortable on all my bikes, but seems like I've read a couple of things lately that claim the Knee Over Pedal Spindle rule has been abandoned except as a possible starting place. I think Grant P had something on it in the Rivendell Reader this issue or last, and there was something else, can't remember where.
In any case, it's probably best to look at all these "rules" as places to start when you dial in your fit, not as inviolable laws.

Like previously pointed out, when moving your saddle up, it also moved it back. Assuming your previous position had your knee directly over the pedal spindle, your new position moved your knee back.

By moving your knee behind the spindle axis, this often times results in a more powerful pedal stroke. You use your thigh muscles more and your calf muscles less. For climbing and stage races this can be a beneficial position (assuming you aren't hurting your knees or having any knee pain). However, there is a trade off, you lose quick acceleration and you may find your cadence has dropped a bit.

Your best bet is probably to drop a plumb line from your knee and adjust the saddle fore and aft until your knee is directly above the pedal spindle. Try out this "neutral" position and see how it works for you. Then adjust fore or aft - no more than 1 or 2 cm - to get the position you like best.

seems like I've read a couple of things lately that claim the Knee Over Pedal Spindle rule has been abandoned except as a possible starting place.

In any case, it's probably best to look at all these "rules" as places to start when you dial in your fit, not as inviolable laws.

You have it correct. KOPS never was a "rule" and anyone who said it was either was displaying their ignorance or quoting someone who was. KOPS is simply a good place to start, and always has been. To say it has been discounted, suggests only that there were some fools out there saying "KOPS or die" and those people were just fools.

Spinners and sprinters may well want their saddle a bit forward of KOPS, and mashers and climbers may well want it as much as 3 cm to the rear. The generally accepted range is KOPS +1, -3 cm.