This post is apropos of nothing. I don't even know if it's the right forum but here goes:
As I was riding along a quiet back road yesterday in the orchards of Southern Oregon, I came upon a ratty recliner that someone had simply deposited by the side of the road. They could have taken it 1 mile up the road to the dump, but of course that would have cost $15. It reminded me of all the garbage I see up in the national forest above my town: sofas, tires, cars, personal mail, all just dumped by the road.

I started to wonder. I've been around the world: Europe, Asia. Why do low-income Americans chose to live in squalor? In Thailand I saw dirt-poor people living in nice neat huts on stilts. In rural Norway, people keep their property clean. So why do the aptly-named white trash of this country chose to live the way they do? I'm not bashing poor people. My wife and I are barely scraping by. But when I see houses piled with junk, plastic kiddie crap and garbage, I just don't get it. When I see an otherswise decent house with peeling paint I ask the owner silently (he's out washing the chrome on his monster truck) "would it just kill you to spend $10 on a can of paint?"

And why it's bad enough that white trash live their own lives surrounded by their own detritus. Why is it ok to dump it in the national forest, or along a scenic road?

What is it about American values that leads people to behave this way?

Thread moving to PO in....

3.........2........1.........

Whats "American" about referring to anyone as trash?

I'm sure if you moved to Thailand, the American trash you speak of wouldnt mind

your remarks have nothing to do with cycling and are degrading and racist

Whats "American" about referring to anyone as trash?

I'm sure if you moved to Thailand, the American trash you speak of wouldnt mind

your remarks have nothing to do with cycling and are degrading and racist

I don't think the OP meant to make any racial commentary... maybe more economic or cultural.

fiddle,

You apparently are not as well traveled as you think you are if you only see that in U.S.A. With your nose stuck so far up in the air I'm surprised you were able to look down to see all the "detritus".

This post is apropos of nothing. I don't even know if it's the right forum but here goes:
As I was riding along a quiet back road yesterday in the orchards of Southern Oregon, I came upon a ratty recliner that someone had simply deposited by the side of the road. They could have taken it 1 mile up the road to the dump, but of course that would have cost $15. It reminded me of all the garbage I see up in the national forest above my town: sofas, tires, cars, personal mail, all just dumped by the road.

I started to wonder. I've been around the world: Europe, Asia. Why do low-income Americans chose to live in squalor? In Thailand I saw dirt-poor people living in nice neat huts on stilts. In rural Norway, people keep their property clean. So why do the aptly-named white trash of this country chose to live the way they do? I'm not bashing poor people. My wife and I are barely scraping by. But when I see houses piled with junk, plastic kiddie crap and garbage, I just don't get it. When I see an otherswise decent house with peeling paint I ask the owner silently (he's out washing the chrome on his monster truck) "would it just kill you to spend $10 on a can of paint?"

And why it's bad enough that white trash live their own lives surrounded by their own detritus. Why is it ok to dump it in the national forest, or along a scenic road?

What is it about American values that leads people to behave this way?

I've traveled a bit in my youth and I've seen enough squalor in other countries to make me thankful to live in the US. If you aren't, bon voyage.

You bring up a very good point. I do not have any answer for you but I can share some observations. First, unlike Thailand or Norway the US is a consumer driven society. The average American accumulates tons of cheap throwaway goods throughout their lifetime. In Europe and other places in the world, quality products are manufactured that can be passed from one generation to the next such as furniture built from real wood instead of compressed sawdust. Europeans have an excellent public transportation system within major cities and high speed rail between major cities. This eliminates the need for cars and most Europeans have never and will never own a car. In contrast, the average American will probably own close to ten cars in their lifetime. We just generate tons of products that eventually become trash after a few years of use.

Another observation is the idea of private property. We build fences to keep others out and to protect our property from the outside world. Americans have total control of their private property but they have no control over what happens on the other side of the fence. Since one cannot influence any control of public property, it is easy for one to lose interest in the care and maintenance of something that they have no control over. Since the days of the pilgrims, the idea of public property has never been popular.

There is also a very crude mentality among many Americans, especially in the Western part of the US. Even here in civilized Connecticut, I sometimes notice people cursing and swearing and spitting and littering and graffiti. Many Americans lack social graces because they have never had to rely on such behavior. It's easier and safer to hide behind one's private property than it is to share and socialize with those on the other side of the fence. It is unfortunate, but that's were we are at this point in our history. I know that these are not answers to your question. I'm not sure why such white trash exists but there is sure a lot of it out there.

:(

You bring up a very good point. I do not have any answer for you but I can share some observations. First, unlike Thailand or Norway the US is a consumer driven society. The average American accumulates tons of cheap throwaway goods throughout their lifetime. In Europe and other places in the world, quality products are manufactured that can be passed from one generation to the next such as furniture built from real wood instead of compressed sawdust. Europeans have an excellent public transportation system within major cities and high speed rail between major cities. This eliminates the need for cars and most Europeans have never and will never own a car. In contrast, the average American will probably own close to ten cars in their lifetime. We just generate tons of products that eventually become trash after a few years of use.

Another observation is the idea of private property. We build fences to keep others out and to protect our property from the outside world. Americans have total control of their private property but they have no control over what happens on the other side of the fence. Since one cannot influence any control of public property, it is easy for one to lose interest in the care and maintenance of something that they have no control over. Since the days of the pilgrims, the idea of public property has never been popular.

There is also a very crude mentality among many Americans, especially in the Western part of the US. Even here in civilized Connecticut, I sometimes notice people cursing and swearing and spitting and littering and graffiti. Many Americans lack social graces because they have never had to rely on such behavior. It's easier and safer to hide behind one's private property than it is to share and socialize with those on the other side of the fence. It is unfortunate, but that's were we are at this point in our history. I know that these are not answers to your question. I'm not sure why such white trash exists but there is sure a lot of it out there.

:(

Furniture made from real wood in Europe? Most Europeans don't have a car? WTF? Do you think we live in the 1920s? :crazy:

I started to wonder. I've been around the world: Europe, Asia. Why do low-income Americans chose to live in squalor?
What is it about American values that leads people to behave this way?

I completely agree with you. Americans for the most part are complete slobs. All you have to do to see a cross section are the crappy 30 minute "comedy' shows that have fat slob husbands with decent looking wives, or MTV's "rap" videos with fat black slobs. Or all the disgusting people you see wearing sweat pants in stores and such. How about tennis shoes that close with velcro as they are too fat and lazy to lace them? Americans no longer stigmatize people for being sloppy, lazy or fat. America sells the idea it's ok to be gross. People have had no sense of style since the '50's.

Furniture made from real wood in Europe? Most Europeans don't have a car? WTF? Do you think we live in the 1920s? :crazy:

The answer to your question is probably yes.

Furniture made from real wood in Europe? Most Europeans don't have a car? WTF? Do you think we live in the 1920s? :crazy:

I thought everyone in Europe hearded sheep and washed their clothes on rocks and stormed castles.

While not taking a position on the purported "trashiness" of Americans (a tangent that can go so wrong in so many ways!), let me just suggest that you remove your head from your nether region and chalk this stream of completely mis-informed drivel about life in Europe up to not having yet learned how to discern reality from what you might wish it to be (btw. good luck with that, with practise, you might actually see the world as it truly is... warts and all!)

I'm just pulling your leg here but can you really blame me??

in Europe and other places in the world, quality products are manufactured that can be passed from one generation to the next such as furniture built from real wood instead of compressed sawdust

What? May I remind you of the geographic origin of one of the world's greatest compressed sawdust vendors -- Ikea? Europe is no different than the States in its obsession to have cheap replaceable furniture -- except perhaps in the rate at which we burn through the stuff.

Europeans have an excellent public transportation system within major cities and high speed rail between major cities. This eliminates the need for cars and most Europeans have never and will never own a car.

Transport policy is my work soi you'll excuse me if I gently point out that the latter part of your assertion is complete shite. Most Europeans will own not one, but several cars in their lifetimes and will use them... alot (albeit over shorter distances than in the USA) Despite the fact that we do have high-quality rail and public transport, car use is still increasing... everywhere in Europe.

We build fences to keep others out and to protect our property from the outside world. Americans have total control of their private property but they have no control over what happens on the other side of the fence.

Just a brief historical reminder... in France, we had a revolution and killed our King just so we could enjoy the full benefits of private property (art. 2 of the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizens). For anyone who has travelled through Europe to say that we may not value private property as much as our American cousins is ridiculous. However, I will grant you that treasuring the "commons" (assuredly, a concept more ingrained in the European psyche than in that of the US "anti-takings" crowd) is not seen in Europe as antithetical to cherishing private property rights...

Just a friendly reality check....

dude - reality check - you should check out any English town outside of London on a Friday or Saturday night - it's a freaking war zone - vomit, binge drinking, fighting, litter, sex in public

people are crappy everywhere - don't get all romantic about it

now I'm off to tend my herd of sheep

This morning I was putting on deodorant and thought to myself, I will be spending May through October in the Mediterranean, I won't have to use this stuff every day. Maybe after my weekly bath. (twice a week if I put in alot of miles) :rolleyes:

My favorite European country is Slovenia. It is rural, alpine, and friendly. All my favorite things. Many Slovenians have cluttered, fenced yards. The most interesting part was in Porta Roze (sp) near Koper. They have a trailer park. People use it for their vacation homes, but it looks just like any trailer park in the US, complete with cars on blocks and appliances in the yard. People are people.

I live in Hawaii and it's 5% homeless rate. The unemployment rate is around 2% so do the math. Non homeless people throw trash out the window and dump stuff along the bike path in West Oahu. The homeless people who live along the bike path pick the stuff up, put it in trash bags, and haul it up to the main road where the city/county picks it up. They may not have a home, but they keep the area they call home clean. Who is the trash?

I thought everyone in Europe hearded sheep and washed their clothes on rocks and stormed castles.

"Hearding" doesn't adequately describe the things we do to sheep but otherwise you're spot on although the castle storming business has hit an all-time low since records began in 783 AD. :rolleyes:

dude - reality check - you should check out any English town outside of London on a Friday or Saturday night - it's a freaking war zone - vomit, binge drinking, fighting, litter, sex in public

people are crappy everywhere - don't get all romantic about it

now I'm off to tend my herd of sheep

You're able to enjoy all that vomit, fighting, being mugged at needle point, doused with petrol ans set on fire by lager louts, getting shot at by yardies and many more traditional English delights within the greater London area as well, methinks. Hey, they even do that sort of thing in Cambridge.. :rolleyes:

Not the people type. I'm not going to comment on them. Reno is surrounded mainly by desert and for 40 miles in all directions there's enough dumped trash to run a recycling business for 10 years.

But, my favorite thing to run across was a dumped beaver. The type with 4 legs and a tail. It was 50 miles from the nearest water source and laying in the August sun. Sucker had inflated to the point of exploding from all the rot going on. Talking about crazy. So, like a good desert rat that I am I pulled out my rifle and shot the thing. Great fountain of goo into the air with that one. Who knew a rotting desert beaver could be filled with so much methane.

I completely agree with you. Americans for the most part are complete slobs. All you have to do to see a cross section are the crappy 30 minute "comedy' shows that have fat slob husbands with decent looking wives, or MTV's "rap" videos with fat black slobs. Or all the disgusting people you see wearing sweat pants in stores and such. How about tennis shoes that close with velcro as they are too fat and lazy to lace them? Americans no longer stigmatize people for being sloppy, lazy or fat. America sells the idea it's ok to be gross. People have had no sense of style since the '50's.

Americans either have to wallow in the poo or pluck out their eyes apparently.

Philippe, I am shocked. I thought that you were too smart to get dragged into posting here in PO. "Reality check" and PO are incompatible. That's what I like about the place.

If I had a camera when I was lost in Tourcoing last April, I could post pictures to prove that the US does not have a monopoly on white trash. But, alas, I only have my memories, or should I say nightmares.

I think Italians out-own Americans when it comes to cars.- even in cities.

I can assure you, IKEA products will not be passed down to our grandchildren.

I just took the train round trip from London to Manchester the other day, and I could have flown for the same price--- and we had the cheap seats. Public transportation aint cheap.

I would suggest that America actually has LESS litter than most places I have been in the world--- but Americans are crazy about their private property- no question there. Here in Norway, the ocean belongs to the people, and it is almost impossible to build a house or cabin on it, unless it has been grandfathered to you.

You bring up a very good point. I do not have any answer for you but I can share some observations. First, unlike Thailand or Norway the US is a consumer driven society. The average American accumulates tons of cheap throwaway goods throughout their lifetime. In Europe and other places in the world, quality products are manufactured that can be passed from one generation to the next such as furniture built from real wood instead of compressed sawdust. Europeans have an excellent public transportation system within major cities and high speed rail between major cities. This eliminates the need for cars and most Europeans have never and will never own a car. In contrast, the average American will probably own close to ten cars in their lifetime. We just generate tons of products that eventually become trash after a few years of use.

Another observation is the idea of private property. We build fences to keep others out and to protect our property from the outside world. Americans have total control of their private property but they have no control over what happens on the other side of the fence. Since one cannot influence any control of public property, it is easy for one to lose interest in the care and maintenance of something that they have no control over. Since the days of the pilgrims, the idea of public property has never been popular.

There is also a very crude mentality among many Americans, especially in the Western part of the US. Even here in civilized Connecticut, I sometimes notice people cursing and swearing and spitting and littering and graffiti. Many Americans lack social graces because they have never had to rely on such behavior. It's easier and safer to hide behind one's private property than it is to share and socialize with those on the other side of the fence. It is unfortunate, but that's were we are at this point in our history. I know that these are not answers to your question. I'm not sure why such white trash exists but there is sure a lot of it out there.

:(

where I get what you're saying (I've seen Southern Oregon and E. Oregon and there is an inordinate amount of rusty yard decorations)..I think the response here has been inappropriate harsh. Your comment is on the complex social capital that humans think they do or do not have really...combined with a throw-away/recyclable economy where nothing is really made to any standard of general quality. its cheaper to replace and dump than keep and restore. have you noticed TV repair shops are basically things of the past?

my point being, I know what you're saying, but I think there are more shades of gray than your experience has led you to. there are folks of "white trash" everywhere in the world...and a lack of respect for the environment in general. southern Oregon has a lot of unused and useless property...such places are often viewed as dumping grounds (Yucca Mt. in Nevada for instance or the Umatilla Army Depot outside of Hermiston). its simply out of site, out of mind, and cleaned shared spaces are not as desirable or enforcable outside of major urban areas (dump a car in the woods outside of Medford, the car will stay there...do it in Portland and it'll be towed and scrapped).

People aren't as baseless as the majority of "civilized" folks think they are...I wish I could pinpoint it to one source (I have my suspicions about generally less educated religious folks who truly believe God put the earth here for us to use up in whatever fasion they want...or generally inept environmental stewards who haven't learned the benefits of a cleaner environment for their own health and wellbeing).

I know what you're saying however..there are a lot of rusty clothes washers and old pickup trucks stewn throughout C. and E. Oregon front yards...

I propose all meth addicts get a large truck and go on a road trip..they could get all the scrap metal they want without actually having to steal road barriers or farm irrigation pipes..

Furniture made from real wood in Europe? Most Europeans don't have a car? WTF? Do you think we live in the 1920s? :crazy:

We know YOU live in a windmill......with fake wood furniture.

No, White Trash isn't uniquely American. But you guys are the best at it, lead the way and there is no doubt it was invented in America. The rest of the world just copying and will always be behind. You know how the rest of the world just wants to be America??? We'll ain't you proud of the social detritus you cats is pioneering around this world. I wonder what other good will come from your great lands and libertary culture? :rolleyes:

And what's racist about sayiing white people suck? History shows us that, without question.

I know these things, I travelled lots you know. There is only wisdom that comes form my keyboard. But I'm humble before teh J's. All praise be to J's. And chicks :thumbsup:

No, White Trash isn't uniquely American. But you guys are the best at it, lead the way and there is no doubt it was invented in America. The rest of the world just copying and will always be behind. You know how the rest of the world just wants to be America??? We'll ain't you proud of the social detritus you cats is pioneering around this world. I wonder what other good will come from your great lands and libertary culture? :rolleyes:

And what's racist about sayiing white people suck? History shows us that, without question.

I know these things, I travelled lots you know. There is only wisdom that comes form my keyboard. But I'm humble before teh J's. All praise be to J's. And chicks :thumbsup:

All right, we're loud mouthed, meddling, arrogant and embarrass ourselves culturally w/out fail. Our negative influence is scary- even France is getting fat (and giving up smokes!). What is the solution world traveler?

Just a brief historical reminder... in France, we had a revolution and killed our King just so we could enjoy the full benefits of private property (art. 2 of the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizens). For anyone who has travelled through Europe to say that we may not value private property as much as our American cousins is ridiculous. However, I will grant you that treasuring the "commons" (assuredly, a concept more ingrained in the European psyche than in that of the US "anti-takings" crowd) is not seen in Europe as antithetical to cherishing private property rights...

Just a friendly reality check....

Wow is that what the national razor, the committe on public safety and thousands of murders can be reduced too. That is very good revisionism...as a historical reminder one might want to "fast forward" a few years, after the Thermidors, to Bonaparte, Empire and Waterloo.

Not many were all that hip to the Declaration of the Rights of Man by 1801 or so. In fact one could say that the enlightenment had quite the backlash...

As a friendly historical reality check.:D

Wow is that what the national razor, the committe on public safety and thousands of murders can be reduced too. That is very good revisionism...as a historical reminder one might want to "fast forward" a few years, after the Thermidors, to Bonaparte, Empire and Waterloo.

Not many were all that hip to the Declaration of the Rights of Man by 1801 or so. In fact one could say that the enlightenment had quite the backlash...

As a friendly historical reality check.:D

Made your day din he? :)

Wow is that what the national razor, the committe on public safety and thousands of murders can be reduced too. That is very good revisionism...as a historical reminder one might want to "fast forward" a few years, after the Thermidors, to Bonaparte, Empire and Waterloo.

Not many were all that hip to the Declaration of the Rights of Man by 1801 or so. In fact one could say that the enlightenment had quite the backlash...

As a friendly historical reality check.:D

Yeah yeah yeah. But the general idea was there. It's (Declaration of the Rights of Man) hardly negated by the intervening troubles and abuses years after the fact. We all know that the French Revolution was the death knell for the monarchistic system of Europe and the reason it is remembered so poignantly today. "Liberty" and "Property" so clearly expounded for godsake! Quit pretending like we taught it to the world.

You got a problem with the not-swift-enough enactment of the Declaration of the Rights of Man?' Really? I should suppose by your gloated reasoning that the deaths and hardships suffered in those historic years past bore no fruit at all.

And quite frankly I have a serious problem with your working definition of "war crime" which I've seen you go to great lengths defending on the US of A's part before. I find your delight in bringing up historic French infidelity to Ideal opposed your defense of US travails most entertaining. If hardly enlightening.

I'm trying to understand the reason behind your polemics. I see none other than arrogance and a need for superiority.

PS - I know you meant your jab lightly but you bug me.

I am offended and appalled by the use of that term here or anywhere. It's racist and offensive. Sorta' like the 'N word' and 'faggot'. This thread should be eliminated. It assaults my sensibilities. I'm shocked. Stunned even. Has anyone written the New York Times about this yet?

If you think American 'white trash' do not care about their environment you should visit the ME, especially Saudi. I think they import all the world's used car tires, and dump them by the side of the highways.

If you think American 'white trash' do not care about their environment you should visit the ME, especially Saudi. I think they import all the world's used car tires, and dump them by the side of the highways.

do you blame them. why plan for a future when it's obvious they all about to get nuked, eradicated and blown away. if you had a nuwkliya bomb over your house would you be trimming your hedgerows and cleaning your gutters of dead leaves? don't think so ....

they just rational. then again you don't know what that means do you?

I am offended and appalled by the use of that term here or anywhere. It's racist and offensive.

You have every right to say so.

You are actually correct, "white trash" is a racist term, linked to segregation and slavery. The non-racist term is "trailer trash". I am glad to see you are becoming enlightened through your on line experience.

We know YOU live in a windmill......with fake wood furniture.

The windmill is made of plastic and the "wooden" shoes come from a mould, but don't tell anyone. :wink:

You have every right to say so.

You are actually correct, "white trash" is a racist term, linked to segregation and slavery. The non-racist term is "trailer trash". I am glad to see you are becoming enlightened through your on line experience.

Next thing you'll know is that he's died his hair blue, got a nosering and moved to San Francisco. :D

This morning I was putting on deodorant and thought to myself, I will be spending May through October in the Mediterranean, I won't have to use this stuff every day. Maybe after my weekly bath. (twice a week if I put in alot of miles) :rolleyes:

My favorite European country is Slovenia. It is rural, alpine, and friendly. All my favorite things. Many Slovenians have cluttered, fenced yards. The most interesting part was in Porta Roze (sp) near Koper. They have a trailer park. People use it for their vacation homes, but it looks just like any trailer park in the US, complete with cars on blocks and appliances in the yard. People are people.

I live in Hawaii and it's 5% homeless rate. The unemployment rate is around 2% so do the math. Non homeless people throw trash out the window and dump stuff along the bike path in West Oahu. The homeless people who live along the bike path pick the stuff up, put it in trash bags, and haul it up to the main road where the city/county picks it up. They may not have a home, but they keep the area they call home clean. Who is the trash?


Is the 5% homeless and 2% unemployed based on the same population? Usually unemployement is calcualted based on the employable workforce but I would think homeless is based on the entire population.

Is the 5% homeless and 2% unemployed based on the same population? Usually unemployement is calcualted based on the employable workforce but I would think homeless is based on the entire population.


I'm sure Bill knows that.... but you should checkout some of his ride reports in C&T. The underbelly of "paradise" ain't all that pretty.

Ever heard of a chav? (That's British white trash)

So no, it's not uniquely American.

Ever heard of a chav? (That's British white trash)

So no, it's not uniquely American.

The term 'White trash," says more about the real insecurity of those who use it to describe people they feel superior to than it does to describe anyone. It's a blanket term for poor whites and is as derogatory as the n word, and intended as such.

Thanks all for your replies. I just got to see the results of my rant--the moderator had moved my thread and I had to dig around for it.

Some of you seemed to think my rant was a racist one. It wasn't meant to be that. I think of it "culturalist" rather than racist. After all, I'm white and at this point pretty low on the income totem pole. It's not even a question of income or race--it's one of attitude and a feeling of civic responsibility.

Many of you were right: I haven't been to every country, and there are certainly many where people have no qualms about dumping stuff by the side of the road. But in this day and age in America, we should be beyond that. The average low-income person in this country doesn't live on 2 dollars a day--even the poorest people in this country have refrigerators. Cars. TVs. Shoes. Wristwatches. Access to higher education in some way or other. The poorest people in this country, with a few exceptions, have it better materially than 99% of all the people in history around the world.

Am I a snob? Ok, sure. But when I see large pieces of furniture dumped by the road, or
on national forest land, I know that whoever dumped it had a pickup. They didn't carry it there on their back. They just chose to despoil it for the rest of us. It was a conscious choice, it involved effort and it was not due to their poor victimhood. Snobbishness, if not outrage, is thoroughly justified.

I see the same behavior from wealthy and middle-class people who walk their dogs on the bike path. Sure it's ok if they don't use a leash and their dog darts under my wheel at the last second or gets in fights with other dogs. Why should the rules apply to them?
As long as their dog gets to roam free.

Wow is that what the national razor, the committe on public safety and thousands of murders can be reduced too. That is very good revisionism...as a historical reminder one might want to "fast forward" a few years, after the Thermidors, to Bonaparte, Empire and Waterloo.

Not many were all that hip to the Declaration of the Rights of Man by 1801 or so. In fact one could say that the enlightenment had quite the backlash...

As a friendly historical reality check.:D

Sounds a reasonable interpretation of the French revolution - a revolution of the Bourgeois bringing in bourgeois values of private property and capital and tossing aside the feudal elites.

A Capitalist revolution just several decades premature (or so Marx would have us believe).