After my first ride on the Arte, I didn't think that there was much difference between the two frames. However, I was riding the Arte with Zipp 202's instead of the aluminum box style Campy rims that I have on the Cristallo right now. Day two, right after day one, I came home with somewhat numb hands and a numb bottom. Day three, which was right after day two, I rode on some grinded down payment and that Arte was really rough. I could feel the vibrations throughout my body and thought I was going to lose some fillings. Sad thing is I rode the same road the week before on the Cristallo and the aluminum wheels and it seemed much, much smoother.

With that said, the Arte is rather stiff and I don't notice any flex in the frame. Same goes for the Cristallo though. So, as soon as I get computer sensors for the Cristallo, that is going to be my everyday bike and the Arte is only going to be used for racing.

Would a Dream HX be any more comfortable than the Arte? The reason I am asking is because I am looking at buying one this winter, to replace the Arte, but if the Dream is a more comfortable frame that is just as stiff as the Arte, I would buy that new frame right now and think about selling the Arte. Somehow, I doubt anybody has done comparison rides on a Dream and an Arte, but I still appreciate any input.

For a second/racing/backup bike, for the price of an 'Arte' frame, I'd probably look to a brand where you'd get more for your money, like maybe a Giant TCR carbon.
I just ordered an Extreme Power sloping 50 from my LBS. Can't wait! :)

Money isn't too much of an issue on this. I am thinking about getting a C50 or Extreme Power for racing since they are lugged frames and they can be repaired. My only issue with using those frames is that I will cry like a baby if I wreck one, but I guess I won't cry too much since they can be repaired. I am also thinking about getting a Dream HX in WHIB to replace the Arte. Keep in mind that I paid $650 for the Arte frame. What Giant frame can I get for that price?

Money isn't too much of an issue on this. I am thinking about getting a C50 or Extreme Power for racing since they are lugged frames and they can be repaired. My only issue with using those frames is that I will cry like a baby if I wreck one, but I guess I won't cry too much since they can be repaired. I am also thinking about getting a Dream HX in WHIB to replace the Arte. Keep in mind that I paid $650 for the Arte frame. What Giant frame can I get for that price?


eBay opens a world of options, Im guessing 650US could get you pretty much anything current out of the eastern parts. Why would you replace the Arte if you just got it finished?

Money isn't too much of an issue on this. I am thinking about getting a C50 or Extreme Power for racing since they are lugged frames and they can be repaired. My only issue with using those frames is that I will cry like a baby if I wreck one, but I guess I won't cry too much since they can be repaired. I am also thinking about getting a Dream HX in WHIB to replace the Arte. Keep in mind that I paid $650 for the Arte frame. What Giant frame can I get for that price?

Ahh....I was assuming you paid more. I think I was assuming you would have paid 1k+ for it. And for 1K, I'd go for a carbon Giant, etc., over any aluminum frame, but thats just my personal preference.

After my first ride on the Arte, I didn't think that there was much difference between the two frames. However, I was riding the Arte with Zipp 202's instead of the aluminum box style Campy rims that I have on the Cristallo right now. Day two, right after day one, I came home with somewhat numb hands and a numb bottom. Day three, which was right after day two, I rode on some grinded down payment and that Arte was really rough. I could feel the vibrations throughout my body and thought I was going to lose some fillings........


fabs, you've ridden the bike 3 times and your looking to replace it? I think you're reading too much into the cycling marketing hype. If you want to make the arte feel smoother, let a couple psi out of the tires and get out and ride.

Yeah, it might be tire pressure that is causing the problem because I have the 202's on the Arte at 120 psi and the Campy Records on the Cristallo at 110 psi. However, I put a 42 mile ride on the Arte yesterday and it still beat me up pretty good. That is 4 days in a row on that bike. Sad thing is that if I wasn't taking today as a rest day because my legs just didn't want to respond yesterday, then I would be back on the Arte again. Once I get the computer sensor for the Cristallo, I am going to try the 202's on the Cristallo and see if there is a difference.

The Dream HX in WXIB just looks so nice. Maybe I'll keep the Arte and buy a Mirage groupo for it and swap the Record stuff to a Dream HX frame. In all likelihood, I'll finish out this season, evaluate how it went and how the bikes rode, and then come to a decision regarding whether or not I need to replace anything.

I checked out the Giant bikes/farmes and about the only frame I would want is the TCR Advanced, and that thing isn't cheap. I could get another Cristallo for that price. The TCR Composite might do too, but that has an MSRP of $1,600.

Look closer at your set up fabs, the Arte could be beating the snoz out of you because of ill positioning or incorrect component lengths. Once you know it fits you all you have to do is spend time on it and condition your self…make one with your machine!

On my trainer I don’t finish as fresh as I do on the ETWN but I know I am working harder and the condition I get will benefit me.

The setup of both bikes is exactly the same. Both have all the exact same components except for the wheels. The handlebars are both Cinelli Rams at 110 - 40 with the same amount of spacers beneath each. Both have the same Cinelli Ram seatposts positioned at the exact same saddle height with the exact same Selle SLR XC gelflow saddle. They both have the Cinelli AVS handlebar gel underneath the exact same handlebar tape. They also both have 2007 Record groupos with Look Carbon Keo pedals, not that these components would make much difference in the comfort area. Oh yeah, both frames are 50 sloping.

In essence, I tried to make both bikes exactly the same fit and feel wise. The frames were going to be the only difference, but the wheels and tires are also a difference right now until I can get some 303's built for the Cristallo. Then both will have carbon wheels and the same tires. I'll have to try the Cristallo with the 202's one day at 120 psi to see if that is the difference.

It is great to see bike tests from the same manufacturer with the same components. Can you post some pics of the Arte and the Cristallo side-by-side fabsroman?

Look forward to your comparison with the same wheels. Could the Zipp be much more stiffer than the Campy box? CSC is riding Zipp in Paris-Roubaix ... not sure which Zipp rims? While most teams rides Al box rims.

I went out today for a 30 mile ride on the Arte and my hands were a little numb when I finished. I also did one of my best times on this course today at 18.7 mph avg with 2200 feet of climbing, so I guess I am happy. Just glad I hadn't decided to extend the ride. What is insane is that on my way out I averaged 20.7, and on the 15 mile ride back I lost that much time even though I felt really good. Anyway, that is off thread.

Here are pics of both of the bikes together and then each one separately. I apologize for the crappy pics but it is 12:30 at night and my garage is full of Graco boxes that we got from last week's baby shower (i.e., I didn't have the energy to move them so I could get better pics). In a month or so I am hoping to post a pic with these two and a finished Colnago Oval Krono, but I have a lot on my plate right now.

I am thinking about getting a Star fork to replace the Flash fork or whatever is on the Arte with the aluminum steerer. Do you guys think that would help in the comfort area?

I have found a link from world famous bike setter upererra (i know not propper english) steve hogg. Have a look and see if any of these tips could help. Click on the view here link in the sitting pretty by steve hogg section from bicyclingaustralia.com.au web site

I think the correct term would be "bike fitter." I have read so many articles about bike fit, that my head is swimming. I have tried lowering the seat slightly on the Arte, but then I struggle in the power department. I have also tried to move the seat back a little, but then I am pretty stretched out. I could raise the bars a little, but that would mean I am less aero. The thing that bugs me is that I don't have these issues with the Cristallo which is set to fit the exact same way. Even with my old bike, which had a lot less drop to the bars, I would get numb hands from the aluminum bars and stem on a steel frame. Pretty soon, I'll be riding the Cristallo for training once I get the additional computer sensors and mounts, and then I'll know for sure what the issue is.

could even come down to your cleats being to far forward, but if you are using the same shoe on both bikes then??? or if your using gloves, they could be to small for you...Both my Sintessi and my Colnago are simular in size...part from the cranks are 172.5 on the Sintess and 170mm on the Colnago. I dont have any problems with numbness..so it could be just conditioning as you would of had most of the winter off.

Yep, I use the same shoes on both bikes; however, I don't wear any gloves for riding. I stopped wearing gloves about 22 years ago because they sometimes got stuck on the downtube shifters when I went to shift. I was hoping that the Cinelli AVS gel inserts would take care of the problem. Maybe the problem will go away with time. Like you said, it might just take some time to get used to it since it is the beginning of the season.

I went out today for a 30 mile ride on the Arte and my hands were a little numb when I finished. I also did one of my best times on this course today at 18.7 mph avg with 2200 feet of climbing, so I guess I am happy. Just glad I hadn't decided to extend the ride. What is insane is that on my way out I averaged 20.7, and on the 15 mile ride back I lost that much time even though I felt really good. Anyway, that is off thread.

Here are pics of both of the bikes together and then each one separately. I apologize for the crappy pics but it is 12:30 at night and my garage is full of Graco boxes that we got from last week's baby shower (i.e., I didn't have the energy to move them so I could get better pics). In a month or so I am hoping to post a pic with these two and a finished Colnago Oval Krono, but I have a lot on my plate right now.

I am thinking about getting a Star fork to replace the Flash fork or whatever is on the Arte with the aluminum steerer. Do you guys think that would help in the comfort area?
How dare you apologise for your garage. I can hardly get into mine without the risk of losing body parts. The bikes look lovely.

I dont wear gloves either because I used to get numbness in the fingers. Since I stopped I dont get it anymore. Hope that your problem is not a pathological problem...but if your ok on the cristallo then it shouldnt be.

I seriously doubt that changing the fork will make a difference. I'd try both bikes with the same wheels before you make any decisions.
Both bikes look great. How are you liking the Rams? Do you find them flexy in the drops? And hows the 07 Record working? I have DA which works great for me, but the campy looks so nice... :)

gibson,

I think I remember the DA on the World Champ build that you did.

I love the 2007 Record, but the only thing I have to compare it to is my 1985 Super Record. So far, it has been working just fine, but I don't have enough miles on either bike to know how it will be working after 10,000 miles. I love the Ram bars and haven't felt any flex in them whatsoever, but I'm not a big guy either. I am dying to finish the Oval Krono up, but that will probably not get done for another month or more since tax season is here and our baby is about to be born.

Once I get the computer sensors I ordered last week, I am going to try the 202's on the Cristallo. So far, I really like the 202's. They are light and they accelerate quick. They are pretty strong too. On a flat portion of road yesterday, I wasn't really paying attention to the road and was trying to get a drink. When I put my head back up, it was just in time to see a foot long piece of 2x4 in the road right in front of me. I hit that piece of wood around 23 mph and bounced right over it with both wheels. I am happy that I didn't wreck. The 202's didn't flinch and they seem to be just fine.

Hey man your seat looks way to far forward get a proper bike fit looks like your stems to long Italian bikes you generally have the seat back then have it forward I've had Pinarello's in the past few years and always had the seat back you get way more power through your hamstrings and glutes

All that body weight on the bars with your seat set forward is not helping to isolate your numbness problem! Is your upper body short for your body height? Gerard is correct in saying that you will generate more power with your seat set back. When you sprint, do you stay out of the saddle and when you sit back down in the saddle do you creep forward and sit on the nose? if so than you need to move the saddle back and even go as far as dropping the seat height a few mm help this problem. I hope that your bar stem length is not two long, cause that could be very $$$$

Its easy to just say move your saddle back, but not everybody has the dimensions for that. I know that KOP isn't a set rule, but when I use it, I end up with my saddle fairly far forward as well.
That said, if his KOP measurement is further forward than the pedal axle, then yes, I suppose he could try moving his saddle back, and using a shorter stem to keep the reach the same.
I think Fabs' seat probably looks 'way' forward just due to his choice of seatpost. If he had a zero setback seatpost, which is very common these days, it would look like his saddle is more centered.
I wish I had nice long arms and long femurs like all the pros, but I don't... :(

Yep, the Cinelli seatpost has a 30mm setback, and I was thinking about getting a zero setback seatpost to cure this problem but there aren't many out there that I like. However, in riding the past several days, I think I can move the saddle back just a tad. The way it is set up right now, my knee is just a tad forward of the pedal spindle when the pedal is in the 3:00 position, but I don't think this fit suits my riding style. Since I got a computer that measures cadence, I have noted that I am usually in the 80's with only a couple of dips into the 90's once in a while. When I am in the saddle climbing, I tend to be further back on the saddle than it is positioned.

When sprinting, I usually sprint out of the saddle unless I have spun the gear out and I need additional rpm's that I cannot attain out of the saddle. Then, I sit down and start spinning like crazy. However, it is a rare day where I spin the gear out while out of the saddle.

By the way, the saddles are set up in the exact same position on both bikes, so that really isn't the answer to the sore bottom and numb hands, but I guess it is a good try. I am going to have to rule out the wheels before I start tinkering with my ride position.

Fabs,
I just ordered a K-Force Light FSA zero setback post. It also allows for side to side movement of the saddle to help a bit with hip/pelvic/leg misalignments. I think they look nice, but its a personal preference thing:

http://www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=45&pid=560

That is about the only one I can find that I like. Hence, "there aren't many out there that I like." I might just order two of them when I order my time trial bars.

Fabs, your PM's are full!
:)

Did a little house keeping. Now I am down to 9 total messages out of the 50 allowed. PM away my friend.

For the rest of you guys, I just moved my seat back aout 1/2 cm, and I will be heading out on a 45 mile ride with a 600 foot climb in the middle of it. So, this should be a good gauge of seat position.

Oh yeah, regarding the handlbar issue being expensive, exactly what isn't expensive with cycling? If the stems are the wrong length, which I doubt because they provide the same reach as my old bike, then I will sell them on ebay and buy the right ones. Pretty simple solution to me. Yeah, I will lose a little money, but such is life. In the end, I seriously doubt the stem length is too long, but I have been known to be wrong on occassion.

Fabs, what lenght/width are your Rams??

I've done the buying and selling thing on ebay. It is quite convenient!

Which store stocks the Cinelli seatpost? :)

Gibson,

The Rams are both 40cm wide with an 11cm stem. The reach on both bikes is a little less than what is recommended by the fit calculators. I pushed my seat back 1/2 cm this morning and went on a 25 mile ride today that included a 600 foot climb and 2,500 feet total climbing. My hands were fine and it felt like I had more power in my legs. I might try moving the seat back another 1/2 cm tomorrow morning before I ride.

iyeoh.

I bought both seatposts on ebay. The first was around $175 and I got the second for $103. Universal cycles stocks the seatpost, but I think it is rather expensive even from them. Look on ebay for deals. I thought I got a great deal on the seatpost when I paid $175 for it, but I wanted to kick myself when I saw them going for just over $100 a couple months later.

Fabsroman,

By the way, I am absolutely in love with your Cristallo, and I am pondering setting up a bike that looks about the same as you have setup, except for perhaps the Zipp 202s (because I may be too heavy and they are not appropriate for my kind of leisure riding). I think somethin more modest like Eurus or Neutron would be more appropriate for me.

iyeoh,

Thanks for the compliment. I spent 6 months figuring out how I wanted to build this bike. By the way, the wheels on the Cristallo in the picture are 2007 Campagnolo Record hubs in 36 hole with black DT Revolution spokes and old school Campagnolo Record Strada aluminum box rims. I built them myself. Those wheels can support plenty of weight, and if you are really worried about your weight on those wheels, you could just build them with thicker spokes.

I bought a lot of the parts on ebay for the Cristallo except for the frame and the Campagnolo groupo. It took a lot of patience, but it was worth the wait.

fabsroman, great collection of Colnago bikes. Two thumbs up on all your builds. Looks like we share the same bike-build philosophy. I too did buy the C50 from Maestro then bought the rest on ebay and built the wheels. I know every nuts and bolts on my bikes. On top of that, I saved over $3000 vs. buying a complete bike from LBS. I do wish to support LBS but I don't make much. eCommerce is the future whether we like it or not. Look forward to your TT bike.

Yep, I saved close to $3,000 on the build by being patient. There is no way I can justify spending $8,000 on a bike. Heck, I can barely justify spending $5,000 on a build, but that is a little easier to swallow than $8,000. Heck, just looking at it percentage wise, it would have cost me 60% more to buy the bike already built from a shop versus buying it piece meal and putting it together by myself. While I too would like to support my LBS, I cannot justify spending 60% more on a bike just to buy it from my LBS.

The only thing I need to finish the TT bike build are wheels and bars. I'm going to buy a new seatpost too, but I already have one that will work in the meantime. I have a Zipp 303 front rim that I am going to build and I am probably going to run a Zipp disk on the rear. the rear 303, and sets of 404's and 808's will probably have to wait a little while.

Hey Fabs, getting back to this subject. Is the jersey that you wore the day you discovered your numbness problems have tight sleeves and that’s what causing some numbness in your fingers. This will cut of some of the circulation to Mrs. Palmer and her 5 daughters. The only reason I ask is I just came back from a 2.5 hour pedal and wore a jersey that was is now a bit small for me because I have been doing some serious rowing lately and my fingers were a bit numb with in the first 30mins.

Anyway check it out.

That could be a possiblility. I know I wore a tight jersey lately, but I cannot remember what day it was on. Lately, I haven't been having any finger/hand problems, but I don't know if it is because I moved the seat back 1/2cm or because I am wearing winter gloves when riding (i.e., it got a little cold over here recently). When I am wearing the winter gloves, I am wearing a long sleeve jersey and I know that they aren't tight on me, so maybe the jerset is the issue. I'll have to see what happens when it gets a little warmer around here, which isn't going to happen for at least another week.

By the way, without the numbness issue, I really like the Arte. It seems to be plenty stiff for me and I have tried it out on plenty of 10% grade hills with out of the saddle climbing, and even tried it on a 16% grade hill twice with most of that climbing being out of the saddle and in a 39x19. I get my computer sensors for the other bikes today, so I'll be back on the Cristallo and I'll give a better comparison of the Cristallo to the Arte once I start riding it again.

Okay, I had the Arte out again today, but I used the Campy box tubulars instead. Much smoother ride than the Zipp 202's, but that could have also been because of the tires. I have Tufo S33's on the Campy rims and Tufo Elite Jets on the Zipps. I might try some S33's on the Zipps and see what happens. Anyway, with no gloves on today, I ended a 36 mile ride with absolutely no pains whatsoever. If it stops raining, I might just take the Cristallo out tomorrow.

I was also able to confirm that the rear hub on the Zipps has something wrong with it. That is where the clanging noise comes from every once in a while when I shift into a larger gear or I start to pedal from a coast. Those wheels will be getting rebuilt with Tune hubs rather shortly.

No pain hey? Use the same jersey as you did the other day when you had a bit of numbness to try and further diagnose the circulation problem..use the same campy wheels and go from there.

I’m not sure why the discussion has moved towards “correcting” your fit. As I understand it, you have two bikes that are nearly identical except for the wheels and the frames. One is comfortable, the other is not. Here are my thoughts:

- Most of my miles are on a C50 with Eurus wheels. I race this bike in road races, and on those days, I ride Zipp 303 tubulars.

- My other bike is a Dream Plus (B-Stay). The usual wheels there are also Eurus.

- Both these bikes are, like yours, identical in size and geometry, fit, set up, etc., and nearly identical in the wheels I use.

- The Dream was my first Colnago. I loved it till I started riding a few centuries. It literally beat the crap out of me. The road vibrations would lead to saddle-area, hand, arm, etc. problems. I’d been professionally fit (one of those 2-3 hour jobs that included power output measurements in various positions), so I had and have a great deal of confidence in my fit and set up.

- I looked into a bunch of carbon frame options, and settled on the C50. Problems solved. I can ride that bike all day. I’m convinced the problems were solved because of the frame material and design. And I can easily believe that your original assessment is correct that the aluminum Arte just isn’t right for you for long distance rides, and that the harsher alu frame is the answer.

- I have a Giant Advanced (2007) on order (team sponsorship deal). I’ve ridden the bike, and I can assure you that although the Giant is a fine ride (not as harsh as the Dream by any stretch), it ain’t a Colnago. The Giant has a good ride, and good torsional rigidity at the BB, but my irk with it is what I’d describe as “wobbliness” in the front of the frame – basically the torsional rigidity of the front triangle is not as good as either my C50 or my Dream.

It went to "fit" because that seems to be one of the biggest areas of disagreement on this board. I have followed some "does this bike fit me" threads and the opinions are all over the place. I did move the saddle back 1/2cm and I have picked up some power while climbing in the saddle, but I left everything else the same. I will agree completely that fit isn't the problem or I would be having the same problem on the Cristallo that I have on the Arte. Honestly, I think the wheels/tires might be the issue. However, I love the 202's. So, I'm going to put Tufo S3 Lite 195 gram or 215 gram tires on those wheels instead of the Tufo Elite Jets and I am going to see if that helps out.

Ok, just try the jersey thing anyway, it will cost you nothing!

Stu,

I wish I could remember what jersey I wore when I had that hand numbness issue. I kind of know, but that was back several weeks ago when the weather here actually called for shorts and a short sleeve jersey. Right now, it is way too cold to go that route. Once I get the chance, I'll try all my jerseys on and see if any fit too tightly. I'll pull the tight fitting ones and take them riding to see how the do in the real world.

all righty, see how you go

Today was the first day with the 202's on the Cristallo, and I ended up with tingling hands even though the jersey wasn't tight. I am coming to the conclusion that the comfort issue is either the wheels or the tires. I am still using a Tufo Elite Jet on the front 202, so I will re-evaluate the situation once I change the tire, which won't be too long from now since it has a little gash in it already.

Also figured out that the clunking noise from the Arte was from the rear hub on the 202's because the same clunking noise is now present on the Cristallo with the 202's on it.

I love the 202's for their acceleration and climbing, but I just don't find them comfortable yet. Again, it might just be the tires, so I am going to change them and see how that affects everything.

Fabsroman,

We might not agree on Iraq but those are two stunning bikes you have there! Beautiful set ups man.

Italianrider, they sure are nice bikes.

Fabs, I don’t know what to say about your fingers. Maybe lay off the coffee(like I can talk), do push ups, do some stretching or something. Its got me lost....sorry

Very nice bikes. Inspired by these pictures, I have just bought a Cinelli Ram seatpost for the Cristallo I have on order. The bars won't be a Ram, but will be Cinelli carbon with a Cinelli stem.

Fabsroman, how do you like the Ram seatpost? Although I have already bought the Ram, I am still trying to decide whether I prefer the aesthetics of the standard Colnago seatpost.

Rossb,

Thanks for the positive comments.

The ram seatposts have been great so far. Not a single issue with them and I have adjusted them a couple of times already to find the correct height.

Post pics of your bike once you have it finished.

Now, I think I have my dillemma solved. The Zipp 202's are the problem. They beat me up again today and I only did a 14 mile ride with my best average yet of 19.7 mph. I was so hoping to crack the 20 mph mark, but just couldn't do it. Anyway, today I could see the cyclo computer bouncing up and down on the Cinelli checkpoint and that just hasn't been the case ever before, and especially not with the aluminum box tubulars. So, the Zipps are going to be relegated to race only use and the box tubulars will be for everyday riding. I'm just going to set up the Arte for the carbon wheels and the Cristallo for the campy box tubulars.

Last night, I was about to pull the trigger on some new hubs and spokes to rebuild the 202s because of the noise I had been hearing out of the rear hub. However, at the last second I decided to tear down the hub and check it out. Found out that one of the pawls had been installed backward in the freehub, which was most likely done by me. I put it back in the right way and there was a single click out of that rear hub today. So, now I am going to build some 303's and finish up my time trial bike. After that, the only thing left will be to ride as much as possible and see how I do racing.