The press is making a hugh deal about the fact that it took campus authorities 2 hours to alert the campus after the first 2 shootings yesterday morning. To me this makes no sense. If there is a double homicide on your street, do they Lock-down your neighborhood? Of course not. Hell, they are not even certain 24 hours later, that the 2 incidents are related.

I think the press and many of the students (who are clearly and understandibly emotional) are attacking the administration inappropriatly.

I think VT handled the situation correctly (with the info they had at the time) What do you think & why?

Len

I agree with you Len. There was no information that showed that the original shooting was nothing but a garden-variety domestic dispute.

I agree with you. The campus police should not be blamed. This campus has 26,000 students on 2600 acres. If there is a murder in a town of 26,000 nobody would expect the police to put the town on lockdown because there might be an impending massacre.

I can undestand why they didnt lock it down right away. They really didnt know what they were dealing with, they thought it was a domestic incident.

But, there is a lot of students commuting to the campus. Since its a time when students are arriving or driving to the campus, maybe they should have closed it down due to the unknown.

There will be a lot of debate on this. And I'm sure it will change the way campus police deal with security issues in the future

Could've, would've, should've... I remember back in college when bomb threats around finals week would really start to get old. We just wanted to take our tests... there never were any bombs.... why all the fuss?

I am sure if they locked down campus, there would have been people complaining about that as well.

Hindsights 20/20 .My wife works at a campus here in Ontario and after the news the security of the University was in major presence on campus. Of course thoughts of a terrorist attack just by the shear numbers killed got the security on edge.
The campus(Viginia) security/police thought it was a domestic incedent and thought they had a person of interest in custody off campus as I understand it. Don't be afraid of the bully, be afraid of the bullied

I agree with you. The campus police should not be blamed. This campus has 26,000 students on 2600 acres. If there is a murder in a town of 26,000 nobody would expect the police to put the town on lockdown because there might be an impending massacre.

so I watched the coverage all day yesterday and the Media was incessant in their thinly veiled accusations at the administration. The VT president and head of security had just come from walking the site of the massacre (Imagine how that would feel if you were responsible for the campus, even if you did everything right), and people are asking them to account for every minute between the first incident and the second....it was awful.

Just venting.

Len

The news this morning said that they thought the first was a murder suicide but then they couldn't find a weapon. They had about an hour after learning that to have taken some further precautions. I think they are very much at fault. If you had the original incident happen in a town of 26,000, the news would be all over it and it would be the talk of every coffee shop and country store thirty minutes after it happened. To say otherwise is ridiculous. They were very negligent here. the anger is justified and well directed.

The news this morning said that they thought the first was a murder suicide but then they couldn't find a weapon. They had about an hour after learning that to have taken some further precautions. I think they are very much at fault. If you had the original incident happen in a town of 26,000, the news would be all over it and it would be the talk of every coffee shop and country store thirty minutes after it happened. To say otherwise is ridiculous. They were very negligent here. the anger is justified and well directed.

I live in a town of 35,000, and word would have spread slowly here (as it did at VT).....but no-one would have changed their behavior.

That's an absurd statement.

No one would have predicted what happened.

Len

people are asking them to account for every minute between the first incident and the second....it was awful.
Hey Len. How's it going? You know this sounds all too familiar to me and a few others here, if you catch my drift :rolleyes:

as a alumni of tech, I can tell you that even if they had sent emails immediately after discovering what happened at West AJ, around 10,000 people would have come to campus anyway. A very small percentage of the students live on campus, everyone else commutes. Most commuters don't check their email at 7:55 when they are running late for a 8:00 class. People would have been there anyway.

The administration did what they could and I support them on that.

As for your comments, Snakebit, you have no idea of the culture at VT, so please don't try to make claims as to "how it would have been".

I can't decide what I think. Generally when there is a multi-victim shooting in a neighborhood with an unknown assailant, they do shut down a several block radius and go house-to-house notifying people. In my mind the jury is still out on the question whether the administration underreacted or underinformed... it is a classic "what did they know and when did they know it" question and I'm sure we'll learn a lot more in the next few days.

I can't decide what I think. Generally when there is a multi-victim shooting in a neighborhood with an unknown assailant, they do shut down a several block radius and go house-to-house notifying people. In my mind the jury is still out on the question whether the administration underreacted or underinformed... it is a classic "what did they know and when did they know it" question and I'm sure we'll learn a lot more in the next few days.

they had pulled over a "Person of interest", an "acquaintance" of the dead girl in the dorm, & were talking to him when the shootings in the classrooms were occuring.

Given that it was a double murder of a man & woman in a dorm room
Given that a very high % of murders of this type are commited by people they know
Given that they had people in the dorm telling them the person commiting the crime had left the dorm
Given that they had info that an "Acquaintance" (read BF) was leaving the campus
Given that no other event occured in that first 1+ hour of time (Note it's only 1/2 mile from the first incident to the second (which is on the other side of campus))
Given that 14,000 students are commuters

I suspect they believed it was a domestic disturbance gone bad.......how many of these result in additional incedents that are 2+ hours later?

The administration (read president and his staff) were briefed on the situation around 8:30.......

It was a very fluid situation........in these situations, police are always playing the odds....until they learn more.

Odds were that this was an isolated incident. The admin did the right thing at the time.

Len

It takes less than 15 minutes to walk from West AJ across the Drillfield to Norris. Why would they think anything else was going to happen after that first hour? I'm with you Len. They did what they could and I support them on that.

Don't misunderstand me--my point is that I just don't feel like I can draw conclusions yet. I may very well agree with you. I just think that the first 48 hours after stories like this (or Columbine, or 9-11 or whatever) are a hard time to make judgments. I may very well wind up feeling just like you do.

I don't know police procedure well enough to make a judgment.

However, the second guessing, the manufactured controversies, the reporting of every rumor, all the crap that 24 hour news needs to fill their sick void, that stuff has made me a little queasy.

And monday morning quarterbacking these dead kids for their lack of grit tops it all.

I would think the police are in charge in such instances. Not the school admin. It would be their call as to what to do.

I would think the police are in charge in such instances. Not the school admin. It would be their call as to what to do.

it was the police chief's recommendation and the president agreed.

It's a tough situation, I've been involved as an officer of a company where a divorced jealous husband came into a plant I ran with a rifle, shot his ex and a co-worker and then went into the warehouse & hid..........You are getting spotty info, colored by rumors and hysteria. 1/2 of what you hear is conjecture. You are trying to get people out, not knowing where the assilant is or what he is doing, not wanting to do anything to make things worse. All while your base instinct is to deny that it is happening (as a self-preservation mode) it is initially incomprehensible that this is happening to you & people you are responsible for. We didn't know for sure for over an hour that he was still in the building. The site we had was about 100 acres with about 10 buildings with about 1,000 employees. VT has 2800 acres, over 100 buildings and 26,000 students (not counting faculty, administration, support and visitors). Hell, the original dorm had 900 people in it.

No matter what you do, you are going to be second guessed. You have to do what you think is right.

It sounds to me like they were trying to be thoughtful & do the right thing for the campus with the info they had.

Len

I saw a report on the news. One of the journalists had two kids on campus going to school there. He interviewed them. They said the admin told everyone to stay in their dom rooms and keep them locked. Beyond that, I doubt there is more that could have been done with such a large campus. I agree with you that the second guessing is out of order. Didn't you see my post above? This sounds quite familiar for some reason :)

Didn't you see my post above? This sounds quite familiar for some reason :)

the difference to me is that this second guessing is about a rapidly changing situation with little info....the second guessing on the war is about the thoughtful manipulation of info to justify a pre conceived war and then, with enough time to adequatly plan it, ignore the reality and totally screw up the post invasion management of the country. Apples & oranges to me.

Plus, I'd prefer to stay on topic with the VT issue.

Len

The news this morning said that they thought the first was a murder suicide but then they couldn't find a weapon. They had about an hour after learning that to have taken some further precautions. I think they are very much at fault. If you had the original incident happen in a town of 26,000, the news would be all over it and it would be the talk of every coffee shop and country store thirty minutes after it happened. To say otherwise is ridiculous. They were very negligent here. the anger is justified and well directed.

I'm undecided but I'm leaning toward agreeing with you. I don't know if I agree with the small town analogy because VT isn't small town... however, it is a school/college/university campus where these heinous things have tended to happen generally speaking. In fact a shooting happened on the VT campus less than a year ago involving an escaped jail inmate. I do appreciate some of the logistical hurdles but it seems to me like a more efficacious plan/system to lock down the campus in such a situation is warranted.

With that being said I don’t think campus security plans are at the heart of the solution to a larger American problem.

I totally agree. This is BS. The press had very little to report yesterday, so they basically generated a story. At best, they could have notified a very small (insignificant) percentage of the thousands of students who go there.

First a semi-related comment:

The news vultures from my hometown saw the need to drive five hours to get a live shot. Thank God our particular talking head made it to Blacksburg. He'll get things sorted out.:rolleyes:

As to the lockdown, the authorities acted exactly correctly. If the fellow had shot up the dorm, a lockdown would have made perfect sense. But two dead and an (assumed) missing perpetrator? If this is a normal criminal/domestic circumstance - one out of tens of thousands - then campus is absolutely the safest place to be, with the perp as far away as he can make himself. Locking down just causes unnecessary panic and would get them pounded for wasting everyone's time.

To suggest that they should have 'locked down' is to suggest that they should go against the odds of several million to one.

Based on the facts as I currently understand them, it appears that the police and university administration acted reasonably in light of the facts they then knew.

I have been to Blacksburg and the Virginia Tech campus. I am not sure how one could "shut down" the campus quickly. The main campus area is larger than the downtown of a lot of cities. VT is not an elementary or high school or a factory or an office building that can be easily secured. If the campus had been "shut down" where would the 25,000 students and 10,000 faculty and staff have gone?

the first killing looked very much like domestic/love triangle gone bad. They were questioning a person of interest and nothing had happened for an hour. Not knowing that a mass murder was about to occur one would assume the more obvious scenario and assume the perp had fled. This isn't a mess up by security, the police or the VT admin. This is just a freaky, very tragic and unpredictible chain of events.

I agree... The Campus Police officers did what they were trained to do... "secure the immediate area" and protect those in the close proxity. As things unfolded they would have expanded the area which they did and did it well. There was no possible way they could have known that the guy was going to do what he did based on the evidence that has so far been revealed and in such a short time. They quaranteened the dorm... then 2 hours later Hell became reality in Norris Hall... and they responded to that quickly. As a former COP, I believe they acted professionally and did all they could.

Too, and nobody has brought this up, that perhaps the first two killed were the distraction he had planned to take attention away from is real plan... mass murder! Just a thought!

You know, the media will drag up all sorts of questions. IT's their job however, sometimes, the ones who answer the questions have no real idea of what the immediate needs are. With a campus as large as Tech, it would have taken a massive force to secure. As soon as the first shootings happened, the contacted all the local police, the state police, and the Feds. Within and hour, emails were sent to students and faculty asking them to stay put. Most complied but those students and faculty in Norris Hall were already in their classes and the stage was set.

Something else... there are 35K people on campus, eventually the laws of large numbers predict that something will happen. All it takes to prove that is one sick mind. That one sick mind was revealed yesterday. Could that have been predicted before hand... nope!

My heart goes out to eveyone their... I just got notice that one of my Son's mother's coworkers lost their daughter in Norris Hall... it strikes close to home after all...

EDB

I agree... The Campus Police officers did what they were trained to do... "secure the immediate area" and protect those in the close proxity. As things unfolded they would have expanded the area which they did and did it well. There was no possible way they could have known that the guy was going to do what he did based on the evidence that has so far been revealed and in such a short time. They quaranteened the dorm... then 2 hours later Hell became reality in Norris Hall... and they responded to that quickly. As a former COP, I believe they acted professionally and did all they could.

Too, and nobody has brought this up, that perhaps the first two killed were the distraction he had planned to take attention away from is real plan... mass murder! Just a thought!

You know, the media will drag up all sorts of questions. IT's their job however, sometimes, the ones who answer the questions have no real idea of what the immediate needs are. With a campus as large as Tech, it would have taken a massive force to secure. As soon as the first shootings happened, the contacted all the local police, the state police, and the Feds. Within and hour, emails were sent to students and faculty asking them to stay put. Most complied but those students and faculty in Norris Hall were already in their classes and the stage was set.

Something else... there are 35K people on campus, eventually the laws of large numbers predict that something will happen. All it takes to prove that is one sick mind. That one sick mind was revealed yesterday. Could that have been predicted before hand... nope!

My heart goes out to eveyone their... I just got notice that one of my Son's mother's coworkers lost their daughter in Norris Hall... it strikes close to home after all...

EDB
+1...if this has been a combat situation then things would be different as you would assume the worst from the start, but how do you plan for some wingnut to randomly go into a classroom of unarmed students and start blasting?

I live in a town of 35,000, and word would have spread slowly here (as it did at VT).....but no-one would have changed their behavior.

That's an absurd statement.

No one would have predicted what happened.

Len

Virginia Tech is not a town of 35000, it is an institution. They go about a structured day under supervision of school officials. School officials had the responsibility for their safety and for interpreting the threat level. Once it was apparant that the killer in the first attack was not one of the bodies, they should have taken steps to insure that the students in their charge were safe and they did not. In a community, the media would have gotten the word out far more quickly and with the various businesses with televisions and radios, word would spread relatively quickly as well. BS your own self.

Virginia Tech is not a town of 35000, it is an institution. They go about a structured day under supervision of school officials. School officials had the responsibility for their safety and for interpreting the threat level. Once it was apparant that the killer in the first attack was not one of the bodies, they should have taken steps to insure that the students in their charge were safe and they did not. In a community, the media would have gotten the word out far more quickly and with the various businesses with televisions and radios, word would spread relatively quickly as well. BS your own self.

they had no reason to believe there was any additional threat.

They were speaking to the person that they thought was involved in the first shooting.
It was over an hour by the time they sorted thru all the crap & made sure he wasn't in the dorm.

They did isolate and lock down the dorm.

It's interesting that you, of all people, are not willing to give the VT administration the benefit of the doubt for not acting differently in a very confusing, very rapidly changing environment that lasted less than 2 hours, yet you give the President every benefit of the doubt in the face overwhelming evidence of pre-meditated bad faith over a 6 year period.

Yea, let's blame the VT administration for the killings.

Len

He's sure sounding like a lib to me.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by Snakebit
Virginia Tech is not a town of 35000, it is an institution. They go about a structured day under supervision of school officials. School officials had the responsibility for their safety and for interpreting the threat level. Once it was apparant that the killer in the first attack was not one of the bodies, they should have taken steps to insure that the students in their charge were safe and they did not. In a community, the media would have gotten the word out far more quickly and with the various businesses with televisions and radios, word would spread relatively quickly as well. BS your own self.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

they had no reason to believe there was any additional threat.

They were speaking to the person that they thought was involved in the first shooting.
It was over an hour by the time they sorted thru all the crap & made sure he wasn't in the dorm.

They did isolate and lock down the dorm.

It's interesting that you, of all people, are not willing to give the VT administration the benefit of the doubt for not acting differently in a very confusing, very rapidly changing environment that lasted less than 2 hours, yet you give the President every benefit of the doubt in the face overwhelming evidence of pre-meditated bad faith over a 6 year period.

Yea, let's blame the VT administration for the killings.

Len

__________________________________________________ _____________

I must say in the defense of the administration at VT that they did everything within their powers to make it safe... IT is a huge community of 2600 acres of turf, 35K bodies to consider and those first called to the dorm were first class... as I posted earlier, they did what they were trained to do secured the immediate area. There was no possible way anyone could have dug up any more information sooner than they did or ask for help sooner. This guy had it all planned out ahead of time and left no traces. Within an hour... everyone on that campus was informed that there was a problem and to stay put... unfortunately, he had already moved to the Hall where his real plan was unfolding. VT is first class as are many Universities and they do try to protect everyone... however, in this case, it was too far gone. I give all those folks there a huge thumbs up for professionalism and action. How could anyone predict the events? They did all they could to keep it safe but nobody can predict what a sick mind will do... that is what happened there. It was because of a very sick individual and not the lax response of those commissioned to protect it.

EDB

they had no reason to believe there was any additional threat.

They were speaking to the person that they thought was involved in the first shooting.
It was over an hour by the time they sorted thru all the crap & made sure he wasn't in the dorm.

They did isolate and lock down the dorm.

It's interesting that you, of all people, are not willing to give the VT administration the benefit of the doubt for not acting differently in a very confusing, very rapidly changing environment that lasted less than 2 hours, yet you give the President every benefit of the doubt in the face overwhelming evidence of pre-meditated bad faith over a 6 year period.

Yea, let's blame the VT administration for the killings.

Len

If I had a kid in that mess, I'd be on my way to Sheehan the whole damned bunch. By your desription and a media report, they had an hour after they realized they did not have the shooter in custody or dead and the situation under control. I have no idea why they didn't have the local police all over the campus at that time, looking for the actual shooter. Are you saying this is Bush's fault now? When did YOU become so patient and understanding? :)

If I had a kid in that mess, I'd be on my way to Sheehan the whole damned bunch. By your desription and a media report, they had an hour after they realized they did not have the shooter in custody or dead and the situation under control. I have no idea why they didn't have the local police all over the campus at that time, looking for the actual shooter. Are you saying this is Bush's fault now? When did YOU become so patient and understanding? :)

they didn't have an hour.....they were interviewing the person they thought was involved when the second shootings occured!

If I was a parent of a VT student, I'd be going nuts too, but the truth is, as much as no one likes it, it was an open campus that is hugh.....they had conflicting info, and they were trying not to create unnecessary panic, while at the same time trying to protect the students and get to the truth.

Local police were involved in investigating the initial shooting, as were the state police. What is being debated is locking down the campus......could it have been done, should it have been attempted, would it have created more problems than it solved or not?

Look, no one posting to this thread, myself included, know what actually happened, but based on what I have heard, the actions taken by the school were prudent and well thought out, based on the info they had at the time. Knowing what they know now, sure, maybe they would do something different, but then?

When I was in the situation, we decided that the safest thing to do was a very quiet department by department evacuation......the alternative was a "fire drill" evacuation. The decision wasn't easy, we second guessed ourselves while we were making it and while we were implementing it. We believed that the "fire drill" approach could have "spooked" him. Were we right? I still don't know.....but we weighed what we knew and made the best decision quickly, because speed mattered. I suspect (though I don't know) that the VT admin did the same thing......point is, someone has to make the call based on what they know.

Len

they didn't have an hour.....they were interviewing the person they thought was involved when the second shootings occured!

If I was a parent of a VT student, I'd be going nuts too, but the truth is, as much as no one likes it, it was an open campus that is hugh.....they had conflicting info, and they were trying not to create unnecessary panic, while at the same time trying to protect the students and get to the truth.

Local police were involved in investigating the initial shooting, as were the state police. What is being debated is locking down the campus......could it have been done, should it have been attempted, would it have created more problems than it solved or not?

Look, no one posting to this thread, myself included, know what actually happened, but based on what I have heard, the actions taken by the school were prudent and well thought out, based on the info they had at the time. Knowing what they know now, sure, maybe they would do something different, but then?

When I was in the situation, we decided that the safest thing to do was a very quiet department by department evacuation......the alternative was a "fire drill" evacuation. The decision wasn't easy, we second guessed ourselves while we were making it and while we were implementing it. We believed that the "fire drill" approach could have "spooked" him. Were we right? I still don't know.....but we weighed what we knew and made the best decision quickly, because speed mattered. I suspect (though I don't know) that the VT admin did the same thing......point is, someone has to make the call based on what they know.

Len

Well, it serves nothing for us to beat each other up and you're right, there are too many unknowns. We'll have to wait for more information and I hope you are right about their decision process.

Well, it serves nothing for us to beat each other up and you're right, there are too many unknowns. We'll have to wait for more information and I hope you are right about their decision process.

that the VT administration will not enjoy the anal probing that will be going on. That being said, many of the lessons of Columbine, made as a result of errors made, have saved lives since then. Let's hope this afterreview is as thourough & objective.

What isn't getting nearly enough press is all the individual acts of heroism that went on.

VT should be very proud of it's students and faculty.

Len

Edit...Gov of VA just announced that the president of VT and the Board of Trustees has asked him for recommendations for participants in the after action review.

A forward from a friend...

They care!

A SPECIAL MESSAGE TO ALL ALUMNI OF VIRGINIA TECH
To our Virginia Tech alumni, I write the kind of message I never expected to have to write in my entire career serving the university. On Monday, the 16th of April, a campus resident senior student shot two students in Ambler Johnston residence hall and proceeded shortly thereafter to the other side of the Drillfield, entered Norris Hall and randomly shot more than 40 students and faculty in several classrooms. He then turned his gun on himself and took his own life. As I write this, 32 students and faculty who were among his victims have died. Others remain hospitalized. An ongoing investigation will answer so many facts and questions still unknown at this time.
This is the most horrific scene in the history of this or any university. Our hearts go out to the families and loved ones of the victims. Our hearts go out to the friends, classmates and others who witnessed this tragedy. A Memorial Convocation is scheduled today (Tuesday afternoon at 2:00 p.m. Eastern Time) and will be nationally televised. President and Mrs. George W. Bush are expected to attend, along with Virginia Governor and Mrs. Tim Kaine and other dignitaries.
This is a shocking crime with crime scenes that have attracted national and international press, all broadcasting their live news shows from the Holtzman Alumni Center. President Charles Steger, himself an alumnus, has personally expressed with utmost compassion his condolences to the families who have been notified and are still being notified. His leadership through this tragedy has been extraordinary. All of us at the university wish to demonstrate our compassion especially to our students who have experienced a kind of horror and tragedy that hopefully they never will again. We share in their deepest sorrow and grief.
Other universities and institutions across the country, and indeed around the world, have communicated with us to express their shock and sympathy. Many of our alumni have communicated with us and also with each other to share expressions of support as well as their personal grief. I am confident that Virginia Tech will heal from this in whatever time it may take, and will do so because of its strong support from a family of caring alumni numbering over 200,000, including our current students and all their families. The faculty, staff and entire surrounding community are committed to helping our students and faculty recover from this terrible, terrible event. Those who will follow them will continue to embrace the true meaning of our motto “That I May Serve,” that bonds the entire Hokie Nation.
The Alumni Association placed a single wreath in the Campus Chapel within hours of the tragedy, and the Corps of Cadets has posted an honor guard with it to symbolize a university honoring those it has lost so tragically. It is but one symbol of the enormous grief that an entire campus and family of alumni around the world must bear. Many have asked how they may send financial memorials… any memorial gifts, payable to the “Virginia Tech Foundation,” designated specifically for the “Virginia Tech Family Fund,” should be mailed to University Development, 902 Prices Fork Road (0336), Blacksburg, VA 24061.

Thank you for your genuine concern and expressions of support for all of us at the university. And please keep those who lost their lives and their grieving families in your thoughts and prayers.
Tom Tillar
Vice President for Alumni Relations
More information as it unfolds continues to be posted at www.vt.edu (http://www.vt.edu/).

VT website. Well done.

Len

they had no reason to believe there was any additional threat.

They were speaking to the person that they thought was involved in the first shooting.
It was over an hour by the time they sorted thru all the crap & made sure he wasn't in the dorm.

They did isolate and lock down the dorm.

It's interesting that you, of all people, are not willing to give the VT administration the benefit of the doubt for not acting differently in a very confusing, very rapidly changing environment that lasted less than 2 hours, yet you give the President every benefit of the doubt in the face overwhelming evidence of pre-meditated bad faith over a 6 year period.

Yea, let's blame the VT administration for the killings.

Len

there was a killer on the lose. call police and ask them to come full force, enough to secure all the perimeter and do it fast.
after previous shootings inn schools it's the least they should have done. if virginia police is unprepared then it's another matter.

on the rampage after the first 2 killings

there was a killer on the lose. call police and ask them to come full force, enough to secure all the perimeter and do it fast.
after previous shootings inn schools it's the least they should have done. if virginia police is unprepared then it's another matter.

Dude... the parimeter of an institution like VT is vast... they did what was right! Within a very short time... that entire place was surrounded with everything and anyone they had to work with... K-9, SWAT, State Police... search and rescue... The original call was to the dorm for a domestic... These guys did all they could! TO expect and instant response to a crime scene undisclosed is unreasonable. The guy who did this was calculating, had a plan and his plan worked... Don't slap the "protectors"... they reacted and did what they were trained to do... Nobody could have asked for something more unless you had a squad at every door watching every thing every moment... Give these guys the credit they deserve! They did nothing to cause the shootings, they reacted and reacted well!

EDB