Just wondering, if there's a DNA match between Basso and Puerto, would the Giro disqualify him? Gutierrez (2nd place) has already been named in Puerto. Would that leave Simoni as the winner?

I imagine that if there was evidence that pre-dated the Giro, then yes, their results would be nullified.

Never heard of such a thing happening though, they may have to consult the rulebook on that one.

Just wondering, if there's a DNA match between Basso and Puerto, would the Giro disqualify him? Gutierrez (2nd place) has already been named in Puerto. Would that leave Simoni as the winner?

I think Basso would have to admit to doping during the race and/or there be documented incidents of doping during the race for this to happen. Same with Guttierez.

Barring a confession I doubt it. Even phone records wouldn't be conclusive as to the timing of it.

Unfortunately the same is true for il Bufalo - who unlike the rest of the dopers I have a grudge against for some reason. OK maybe Vino irks me too. Must be something about linebacker-bouncer body types being able to climb that sets me off.

OK maybe Vino irks me too. Must be something about linebacker-bouncer body types being able to climb that sets me off.
Umm. Vino wieghs 68 kilos (150 lbs) and is 1.77 meters tall (5'9"). That's not really a bodybuilder, if that's what you were talking about. And he's not exactly the world's greatest climber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Vinokourov

Umm. Vino wieghs 68 kilos (150 lbs) and is 1.77 meters tall (5'9"). That's not really a bodybuilder, if that's what you were talking about. And he's not exactly the world's greatest climber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Vinokourov

I recall Vino beating Armstrong up Ventoux during the 2005 DL. Decent enough climber to me.

Umm. Vino wieghs 68 kilos (150 lbs) and is 1.77 meters tall (5'9"). That's not really a bodybuilder, if that's what you were talking about. And he's not exactly the world's greatest climber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Vinokourov

I'm always surprised by these weights that are out there. I agree with TZ Vino to me always looked like the wrong physique to be able to climb well enough to win a grand tour (for that matter how the hell does Schumacher climb as well as he does with his physique?). I could never figure out how Armstrong weighed as much as he claimed (post cancer at Tour time). Then you have Zabriskie who TT performance suggests oodles of power, looks lean and light, and yet drops like a stone off the back as soon as they hit a climb.

I recall Vino beating Armstrong up Ventoux during the 2005 DL. Decent enough climber to me.

That's not a great example. Armstrong had learned a few years earlier than 2005 that if he wanted to win the TDF, it wasn't wise to work too hard in the DL. I can't imagine Vino beating Armstrong up any climb if they seriously went head to head.

(for that matter how the hell does Schumacher climb as well as he does with his physique?).

For real? Schumacher has always seemed very thin to me, especially compared with the majority of the German riders. Maybe light blue has a slimming effect on camera.

is Vino really 5'9? Looks more like about 5'6. His bike looks tiny.

That's not a great example. Armstrong had learned a few years earlier than 2005 that if he wanted to win the TDF, it wasn't wise to work too hard in the DL. I can't imagine Vino beating Armstrong up any climb if they seriously went head to head.

I'll give you that, but it's not like we're talking Armstrong in January. We're talking Armstrong just a couple weeks out from another dominating TdF performance. The fact he (Vino) was able to win means at the very least he is a pretty decent climber. I'm pretty sure Vino has won a stage up Alp d'Huez too. I could look at his Palmares I guess, but that would be too much work :)

I'll give you that, but it's not like we're talking Armstrong in January. We're talking Armstrong just a couple weeks out from another dominating TdF performance. The fact he (Vino) was able to win means at the very least he is a pretty decent climber. I'm pretty sure Vino has won a stage up Alp d'Huez too. I could look at his Palmares I guess, but that would be too much work :)

Vino is definitely a good climber, but he has never won on L'Alpe d'Huez.

+1 for a pathological dislike of Vino. I wonder what the odds are of him being bust before the end of career.

I like Vino, he makes races interesting. Races need more attackers.

Is weight in cycling like height in basketball? Height on an official player's stats are almost always overstated. Could it be that official weight on the team's website is understated?

I'm always surprised by these weights that are out there. I agree with TZ Vino to me always looked like the wrong physique to be able to climb well enough to win a grand tour (for that matter how the hell does Schumacher climb as well as he does with his physique?). I could never figure out how Armstrong weighed as much as he claimed (post cancer at Tour time). Then you have Zabriskie who TT performance suggests oodles of power, looks lean and light, and yet drops like a stone off the back as soon as they hit a climb.

I think its because they are all able to power up climbs in bigger gears, esp Vino (thats why he is allways getting dropped off the back on higher climbs a la TDF '05) and Gutierrez, (Gutierrez was different because he had a lot more willpower to stay in there on the climbs of the Giro, or he was chemically enhanced???) smaller climbers are able to use smaller gears to assist with higher cadence, so thats why they benefit from being so small. Stefan Schumacher is different as he is able to alternate between the small gears for steep climbs (Cauberg) and bigger gears for the long climbs (LBL), he also time trials very well in big gears (a bit like Ullrich used to) a lot of the other guys have problems trying to do both.

I imagine that if there was evidence that pre-dated the Giro, then yes, their results would be nullified.

Never heard of such a thing happening though, they may have to consult the rulebook on that one.

They yanked David Millar's World TT title retroactively so I could easily imagine that if the "extratrestrial" (Simoni's angry comment) was true, he's lose his Giro title.

Decent enough climber to me.
Don't get me wrong. I love Vino and think he's a good climber. In fact, he's my pick for the Tour. However, I've always seen him as a step just below the very best climbers. I apologize for too much sarcasm.

They yanked David Millar's World TT title retroactively so I could easily imagine that if the "extratrestrial" (Simoni's angry comment) was true, he's lose his Giro title.

I'm pretty sure that was because Millar admitted to using dope to take that title, they didn't just take it because the cops found EPO in his house.

I'm always surprised by these weights that are out there. I agree with TZ Vino to me always looked like the wrong physique to be able to climb well enough to win a grand tour
I don't put a whole lot of weight in how heavy the riders purportedly are either. I was just trying to illustrate that Vino's may not be as big as he may appear.

Of course, there are better climbers, the pure climbers will have him suffering but Vino is a more complete racer, good climber, good, time trialist, good sprinter... Good combo for a GT contender.

I'm pretty sure that was because Millar admitted to using dope to take that title, they didn't just take it because the cops found EPO in his house.
I wonder if they match Basso's blood up with Birillo or whatever code name he has, and then look at the doping schedule Fuentes had for that rider, if that would be satisfactory evidence to nullify his results. One would think so...

I wonder if they match Basso's blood up with Birillo or whatever code name he has, and then look at the doping schedule Fuentes had for that rider, if that would be satisfactory evidence to nullify his results. One would think so...

In an fair world one would think so. I wonder who makes that sort of decision, the race organizers, CONI, UCI?

If they're negotiating a plea deal he may have to renounce that win but then who do you give it to, the almost certainly juiced Guttierez (who would then have to get DQ'd as well in a fair world given what's been reported about his involvement in OP), and then you get to Simoni. Maybe not involved with Fuentes but I'd be shocked if he was riding on "bread and water" alone.

The only way they will take his title is if he admits he dopped for that race. He didn't fail any of the drug tests and if he doesn't admit to dopping for the race, I don't know if they can take it from him! Put it this way, Hamilton failed his A at the Olympics but they f'ed up the B sample. He got busted later that year for doing the same thing and he didn't get his gold medal stripped. Does anyone know if there is a collective barganing agreement that spells out what has to happen to have a title stripped?

wouldn't it be the decision of the race organization? For Giro/Tour the ASO. Olympics would be the decision of IOC? In a post-puerto world, what would stop the ASO from stripping Basso (and even seeking civil penalties against him) if the Fuentes dossier contained a doping schedule that overlapped with Giro (as I believe has been stated there is)? Seems like the kind of strong actions that would make riders take notice.

Didn't Ekimov make noises about suing Hamilton re the Olympic gold?

Didn't Ekimov make noises about suing Hamilton re the Olympic gold?It wasn't Ekimov himself, it was the Russian cycling federation if I remember correctly... and Tyler still has his dirty gold medal as we spea.. as we type.

Put it this way, Hamilton failed his A at the Olympics but they f'ed up the B sample. He got busted later that year for doing the same thing and he didn't get his gold medal stripped.

Now that is just not fair Red Sox Junkie... Hamilton didn't dope, it was his twin brother who to this day he has never met, then his twin raced in his place, (I guess while Tyler was on the can?), and then gave his positive piss sample to the authorities.

Get your... err... Tyler's.... err... Tylers twin brother's story straight. :wink5:

The only way they will take his title is if he admits he dopped for that race. He didn't fail any of the drug tests and if he doesn't admit to dopping for the race, I don't know if they can take it from him! Put it this way, Hamilton failed his A at the Olympics but they f'ed up the B sample. He got busted later that year for doing the same thing and he didn't get his gold medal stripped. Does anyone know if there is a collective barganing agreement that spells out what has to happen to have a title stripped?

At the Olympics, they screwed up the blood test, which means that technically, according to their own rules and procedures, he did not fail the test. Therefore, unless Hamilton voluntarily admits that he was doping during the Olympics, there are no grounds to take the medal. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

It may turn out that Hamilton was pretty stupid about the whole thing. He should have just admitted everything he did, so everything got rolled into one offense and one suspension. He would have had to give back the gold, but he could have saved a ton of money on lawyers, and he probably could have come back to racing a year sooner. He also could have earned some amount of redemption in the eyes of his fans, like David Millar has. If he gets busted again for the Puerto stuff, he'll never race again. Of course, if he admitted he was blood doping with Fuentes, it likely would have blown open the whole Puerto affair two years earlier.

In an fair world one would think so. I wonder who makes that sort of decision, the race organizers, CONI, UCI?


The UCI rules cover this. The race organizer would have to make the decision based on whether or not there was evidence that the rider was doping during, or immediately prior to, the event.

www.uci.ch