I have a really old cup & cone style BB from the 80s that I'd like to use in a new project. It is an Italian threaded BB. Can I use this Italian threaded BB in a frame that has an English threaded BB shell? How? Do I just replace the Italian cups with English cups?

Here is a picture of an old style cup & cone BB. Bearings are not pictured.
http://www.bikespecialties.com/images/parts/axixbb-200.jpg

Why would you use it?
Even the cheapest Shimano square taper cartridge bottom bracket will save you from this ancient bb maintenance troubles (It will collect sand and grime, and squeak).
You must also consider the bb width.

http://aebike.com/images/library/catalogs/soc/p350X350m/CR5366.jpg

I don't think that will work. English BBs are 68mm wide, Italian are 70mm, so I would think the spindle would be the wrong width.

I don't think that will work. English BBs are 68mm wide, Italian are 70mm, so I would think the spindle would be the wrong width.

Ditto....The spindle is designed for a 70mm shell...

That being said, it you have the cups try it. The non-drive side cup might stick out 2mm but with a lock ring tight you'll still get the BB adjusted... Putting a 68mm spindle in a 70mm won't work but a 70mm spindle is a 68mm shell might work

Ditto....The spindle is designed for a 70mm shell...

That being said, it you have the cups try it. The non-drive side cup might stick out 2mm but with a lock ring tight you'll still get the BB adjusted... Putting a 68mm spindle in a 70mm won't work but a 70mm spindle is a 68mm shell might work


Yeah, but it's the cups that determine if a BB is English or Italian. The spindle is neither English or Italian. There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle.

There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle.

Sheldon Brown/Harris Cyclery appears to say otherwise since they sell different axles for different widths... http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bottombrackets.html#axles

Sheldon Brown/Harris Cyclery appears to say otherwise since they sell different axles for different widths... http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bottombrackets.html#axles


Thanks. I don't think Sheldon is saying that spindle's come in different widths. The only difference between any square taper spindle is the length and the taper, which can be either ISO or JIS. If you scroll down about 3/4 of the way down the page, to the table on spindles, you will notice that he did not enter a width measurement for each spindle. That is purely because all square taper spindles have the exact same width. Remember, they only differ in length and type of taper. Trust me, the only difference between spindle are the length and taper.

All Italian spindles start out pretty long. English spindles are narrower. Where am I getting with this you ask? Well, to be more precise, if you look at the table he has listed for spindles you will notice measurements for A, B, C, D. None of them indicate a width measurement for spindles, only a length measurement. The reason why is because each square taper spindle has the exact same width as another spindle. The only difference is the length and taper(ISO or JIS).

I'm not sure what you're saying about length and width (are you claiming that measurement D is all that matters?), but you previously said that "There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle", and from the measurements on the table I linked to, it seems pretty clear to me that there are. 68mm shell width means that measurement B is 52mm and 70mm shell width means Measurement B is 55mm (and 73mm shell width means 57mm). I think the "Shell Width" column on the axle table I linked to is there for a reason.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/spindle.jpg

I'm not sure what you're saying about length and width (are you claiming that measurement D is all that matters?), but you previously said that "There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle", and from the measurements on the table I linked to, it seems pretty clear to me that there are. 68mm shell width means that measurement B is 52mm and 70mm shell width means Measurement B is 55mm (and 73mm shell width means 57mm). I think the "Shell Width" column on the axle table I linked to is there for a reason.

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/spindle.jpg


Measurement D = the spindle length. A, B, C all are components of the measurent D, which is the spindle length. What I am saying is that ALL square taper spindles have the same width. They only differ in length and taper. I am soooooo sure on this, I would be willing to bet you a VERY large sum of money. Wager?

What I am saying is that ALL square taper spindles have the same width.

Look, measurement B is the distance between the bearings on the two sides of the of the BB. If you try to swap an axle with B=52mm for an axle with B=57mm -- even if the total length, D, is the same for both -- then what do you claim happens? Do you say that they are the same "width" never mind the adjustable cup sticking out an extra half centimeter with the B=57mm axle? I'm saying that B is an indicator of "width", and B is decidedly not constant. I'll wait for other people to chime in before posting again.

Measurement D = the spindle length. A, B, C all are components of the measurent D, which is the spindle length. What I am saying is that ALL square taper spindles have the same width. They only differ in length and taper. I am soooooo sure on this, I would be willing to bet you a VERY large sum of money. Wager?

I have two Dura Ace 7400 bottom brackets. The "B" length on the 70 mm spindle is longer than the "B" length on the 68mm.... The "B' measurement determines whether a BB spindle is 70 or 68..

I

Measurement D = the spindle length. A, B, C all are components of the measurent D, which is the spindle length. What I am saying is that ALL square taper spindles have the same width. They only differ in length and taper. I am soooooo sure on this, I would be willing to bet you a VERY large sum of money. Wager?

Before you make that bet, you need to look at the Genuine Campy BB spindle specs, not what may be written in the QBP catalog.

Maybe I'm missing something big here, but the discussion seems to swirl around around a term that hasn't been defined. What exactly is meant by spindle width?

Well, according to barbedwire it is something inherently constant among all BBs...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all BBs are created with the same width, that they are endowed by their Creator with only 2 unalienable Dimensions, overall length and taper...

Joking aside, you're right, the lack of a definition is part of the problem. Furthermore, I don't know if "width" is a good term for what we're going for. What we started with is bottom bracket shell width, and the BB axle dimension in question is one that varies (or if barbedwire is correct -- does not vary) with the shell width. I think B is the dimension that we're looking for (as does Dave Hickey apparently) because it is the width between the bearings, and that does vary with the shell width for obvious reasons -- the wider the shell, the farther appart the bearings. barbedwire, how are you defining "width"? Your original claim is that the differences are in the cups, not in the axle, but the evidence suggest otherwise. I'm not saying that you can't use a B=55 axle in a 68mm shell -- I don't know, you may well be able to, but the cups would have to stick out more.

Well, according to barbedwire it is something inherently constant among all BBs...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all BBs are created with the same width, that they are endowed by their Creator with only 2 unalienable Dimensions, overall length and taper...

Joking aside, you're right, the lack of a definition is part of the problem. Furthermore, I don't know if "width" is a good term for what we're going for. What we started with is bottom bracket shell width, and the BB axle dimension in question is one that varies (or if barbedwire is correct -- does not vary) with the shell width. I think B is the dimension that we're looking for (as does Dave Hickey apparently) because it is the width between the bearings, and that does vary with the shell width for obvious reasons -- the wider the shell, the farther appart the bearings. barbedwire, how are you defining "width"? Your original claim is that the differences are in the cups, not in the axle, but the evidence suggest otherwise. I'm not saying that you can't use a B=55 axle in a 68mm shell -- I don't know, you may well be able to, but the cups would have to stick out more.


And guess that the "width" that barbedwire is referring to is the spindle diameter.

And guess that the "width" that barbedwire is referring to is the spindle diameter.

That occured to me as well. But with the basic question about Italian vs English bottom brackets, how can someone introduce and then continue to argue spindle diameter unless they are totally confused?

And guess that the "width" that barbedwire is referring to is the spindle diameter.


This is exactly what I mean by width. It didn't occur to me that people were referring to spindle length B as the "width". Now, I understand what dlenmw was saying. Geez! No where on Sheldon's table (3/4 of the way down) does it ever refer to lengths A, B, C, D as spindle widths. In fact, Sheldon only refers to them as spindle lengths. 68mm and 70mm only refer to the BB shell width itself, not the BB spindle length.
**** Spindles only differ in length and taper. They do NOT differ in spindle width ****

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/botto...ets.html#axles
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/images/spindle.jpg

Let's just define some things so that we are all on the same page and referring to the same things.

1) The long cylinder shaped thing that goes inside the BB is the spindle, not axle.
2) This thread refers to the older style cup & cone BBs, not cartridge BBs.
3) 68mm shell & 70mm shell refer to the frame's BB shell length, or if you prefer the frame's BB shell "width". It does not refer to the spindle length or width (diameter).

Then why did you say this in a post above?

"There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle."

The cup and cone spindles are different with a 68mm BB and a 70mm BB. The B dimension is longer with a 70mm spindle.

soooooooooo...Getting back to your original question, you might be able to use a 70mm spindle in with 68mm cups. The non-drive side cup will stick out 2mm more than normal but since that side uses a lock ring, It shouldn't be a problem.

What won't work is a 68mm spindle with 70mm cups. The non-drive side cup goes in too far and you can't get the lock ring on....
"

Then why did you say this in a post above?

"There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle."

The cup and cone spindles are different with a 68mm BB and a 70mm BB. The B dimension is longer with a 70mm spindle.

soooooooooo...Getting back to your original question, you might be able to use a 70mm spindle in with 68mm cups. The non-drive side cup will stick out 2mm more than normal but since that side uses a lock ring, It shouldn't be a problem.

What won't work is a 68mm spindle with 70mm cups. The non-drive side cup goes in too far and you can't get the lock ring on....
"


Why did I say that there is "no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle"? Because I meant that. 68mm and 70mm measurements only refer to the BB shell, not the spindle. I understand that measurement B corresponds to how far apart the bearings are, and thus they correspond to the shell being 68mm or 70mm. Still, there is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle, only the shell is 68mm or 70mm. Sheldon's table even refers to those measurements as belonging to the BB shell, not spindle.

soooo, back to the original question. Supposing I have a very, very old DA 7400 series Italian BB spindle - cup and cone style. I should be able to use this spindle in a frame tapped out for a English BB, so long as I replace the cups. Yes? To my knowledge, the B measurement on the DA 7400 series Italian spindle is identical to the B measurement on the DA 7400 series English spindle. So, the cups shouldn't stick out any.

Why did I say that there is "no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle"? Because I meant that. 68mm and 70mm measurements only refer to the BB shell, not the spindle. I understand that measurement B corresponds to how far apart the bearings are, and thus they correspond to the shell being 68mm or 70mm. Still, there is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle, only the shell is 68mm or 70mm. Sheldon's table even refers to those measurements as belonging to the BB shell, not spindle.

soooo, back to the original question. Supposing I have a very, very old DA 7400 series Italian BB spindle - cup and cone style. I should be able to use this spindle in a frame tapped out for a English BB, so long as I replace the cups. Yes? To my knowledge, the B measurement on the DA 7400 series Italian spindle is identical to the B measurement on the DA 7400 series English spindle. So, the cups shouldn't stick out any.


I mean no offense by this but you don't listen to what everyone is telling you...

There is a difference between a spindle designed for a 68mm BB and one designed for a 70mm BB... The B measurement is different.

I have two 7400 spindles in the garage, one is designed for a 68 shell and the other is designed for a 70mm shell. The B measurement is longer on the spindle designed for a 70mm shell.

One spindle has "68---------W" on it and the other has "70------------W" on it.

3) 68mm shell & 70mm shell refer to the frame's BB shell length, or if you prefer the frame's BB shell "width". It does not refer to the spindle length or width (diameter).

"Shell Width" is the term used on Sheldon's page, and it's the one I usually hear used. So when you said

"There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle."

and I replied

"Sheldon Brown/Harris Cyclery appears to say otherwise since they sell different axles for different widths..."

The different widths I was referring to were 68mm or 70mm shell widths. I can sort of see how that could have caused confusion. But my next post I was very explicit -- I always said "shell width" not "width" (I even noted that "shell width" appeared on the table I linked to), so that should have cleared up any confusion.

Anyhow, back to your original claim:

"Yeah, but it's the cups that determine if a BB is English or Italian. The spindle is neither English or Italian. There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle."

That is not true -- it's not just in the cups; the spindles are different too.

"Shell Width" is the term used on Sheldon's page, and it's the one I usually hear used. So when you said

"There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle."

and I replied

"Sheldon Brown/Harris Cyclery appears to say otherwise since they sell different axles for different widths..."

The different widths I was referring to were 68mm or 70mm shell widths. I can sort of see how that could have caused confusion. But my next post I was very explicit -- I always said "shell width" not "width" (I even noted that "shell width" appeared on the table I linked to), so that should have cleared up any confusion.

Anyhow, back to your original claim:

"Yeah, but it's the cups that determine if a BB is English or Italian. The spindle is neither English or Italian. There is no such thing as a 68mm or 70mm spindle."

That is not true -- it's not just in the cups; the spindles are different too.

But if you refuse to believe this correct info, go ahead and do what you want. Just do not be surprised when the chainline is off, along with the crankarms.
If that is not enough, Campy makes(made) thick and thin BB cups to further confuse things.

I mean no offense by this but you don't listen to what everyone is telling you...

There is a difference between a spindle designed for a 68mm BB and one designed for a 70mm BB... The B measurement is different.

I have two 7400 spindles in the garage, one is designed for a 68 shell and the other is designed for a 70mm shell. The B measurement is longer on the spindle designed for a 70mm shell.

One spindle has "68---------W" on it and the other has "70------------W" on it.


I take no offense to what you are saying. I think there is just a misunderstanding, one because of what dlenm is posting and what I am posting. Couple that with the bike industry's poor terminology on length & width and you get a circus thread with people jumping on the bandwagon of a guy (dlenm) who wasn't particularly interested in what I had to say, more interested in trying to correct me. I stand by everything I stated.

About the poor bike terminology that contributes to this circus...
In engineering and math, the term length & width describe a rectangular or cylindrical form. The length is always longer than the width. However, the bike industry, for some stupid reason, uses the term width & diameter when referring to the BB shell and length when referring to the spindle. For example, 68mm shell & 70mm shell refer to the mathematical length of the shell on the frame. The shell width (diameter) ranges from 33.5mm-35.00mm. However, for some stupid reason the bike industry likes to call the longer side of the BB shell - the BB width, and the shorter side of the shell the BB diameter. For the spindle, the bike industry uses the term spindle length, which runs along the same plane as the bike industry term BB width.

Now, all this whole thread is about isn't about the title at all. It is about arguing what is what. We don't have clear definitions. But, I have tried to define exactly what each thing is. And I have never deviated from anything in the Sheldon Brown table. He, in fact, only refers to the 68mm and 70mm widths as "BB shell" widths, not spindle measurements. I do recognize that the B measurement corresponds to the overall spindle length and thus the overall bearing spacing and thus the bike industry moniker, BB shell "width" (which is really length). But I digress.

Are you sure that the "B" measurements on your 7400 spindles are different? I could be wrong on this, but to my knowledge, and this is from a mechanic friend of mine, Shimano had only one type of Dura-Ace 7400 series spindle. They stamped the English spindles 68 something, and the Italian spindle 70 something. That was for the assembly & inventory purposes and the 68 stamped spindles got the English cups before being boxed and the 70 stamped spindles got the Italian cups before being boxed. Could be false. I don't know. Are you sure the "B" lengths on your spindle are different? Could you possibly measure them so I could know? Thanks.

I Couple that with the bike industry's poor terminology on length & width and you get a circus thread with people jumping on the bandwagon of a guy (dlenm) who wasn't particularly interested in what I had to say, more interested in trying to correct me.

I don't try to make enemies online. However, I know that myself and others make use of old threads as references, and I was very interested in trying to correct you because I interpreted what you were saying to be false, and I want these forums to be good references. However, we can now see that most of the disagreement was due to terminology confusion and because I didn't realize that you were only referring to the case of the 7400 spindle (to be fair, I don't think that you made that clear) -- which may or may not have the same B measurements for 68mm and 70mm shell widths (something which is not true for all BBs). Dave Hickey may be able to clear up the matter of the 7400 spindle once and for all (although he has previously stated that the 7400 spindles for 68mm and 70mm shell widths do not have the same B dimension).

We cool?