Venezuela replaces opposition TV with state network
Mon May 28, 2007 8:23AM EDT

By Brian Ellsworth and Christian Oliver

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela shut down an opposition television channel on Monday and replaced it with one promoting President Hugo Chavez's self-proclaimed socialist revolution in a move widely criticized as a threat to democracy.

Chavez has long sparred with opposition channels, which he calls "horsemen of the apocalypse" for backing a botched coup against him in 2002.

His opponents say the internationally condemned closure of RCTV will damage freedom of expression in the OPEC nation.

"This has exposed the abusive, arbitrary and autocratic nature of Chavez's government, a government that fears free thought, that fears opinion and fears criticism," said Marcel Granier, chief of RCTV, the country's oldest broadcaster.

The closure of the channel exposed the country's sharp political divide -- thousands of Chavez supporters held street parties while opposition demonstrators faced cordons of police, chanting anti-government slogans.

In a tearful farewell program, RCTV staff packed a studio and prayed together.

"Do not lose hope. We will see you soon," RCTV presenter Nelson Bustamante told viewers.

Twenty minutes after RCTV was pulled off air, the state channel started transmission with the national anthem conducted by Gustavo Dudamel, the 26-year-old Venezuelan who was appointed as music director of the Los Angeles Philharmonic.

Programming started with a concert of traditional melodies, interspersed with government trailers. After the concert, the channel planned to show a film on 19th-century commander Simon Bolivar, Chavez's hero who freed much of South America from Spain.

CENTRALIZING THE STATE

Since becoming president in 1999, Chavez has centralized power, politicizing the judiciary, military and oil industry.

But before the closure of RCTV, political analysts had identified Venezuela's critical media as one of the main guards against him forging a Cuban-style system in the footsteps of his mentor, communist leader Fidel Castro.

The closure was condemned by the U.S. Senate and the EU Parliament, but Chavez's supporters justified the move by criticizing the journalistic ethics of the channel.

RCTV ran movies and cartoons when the tide turned in Chavez's favor in the 2002 coup, and refused to show huge crowds of the president's supporters rallying against the coup leaders.

Pollster Datanalisis found almost 70 percent of Venezuelans opposed the shut-down, but most cited the loss of their favorite soap operas rather than concerns about limits on freedom of expression.

Among the Chavez supporters swigging beer and dancing in the streets of central Caracas, some thought the president should go further and shut down the few remaining opposition networks, such as Globovision.

"They all participated in the coup and incited violence," said shopkeeper Jose Quijada, 58, wearing the hallmark red T-shirt of Chavez supporters.

But Wilmer Granadillo, a cameraman doing his last shift at RCTV, said: "It is sad, so sad. This was my second home."

Another glorious victory for the global anti-american, leftish, mini-power, champions of the oppressed?

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Well demonstrated.

Another glorious victory for the global anti-american, leftish, mini-power, champions of the oppressed?


It's amazing how good Hollywood is at putting dictators on their thrones. Absolutely amazing! We should execute all actors/actresses now.

i can't stand Chavez. He is the main man in LA now. HIs influence is behind Bolivia and Equador. The first is nationalizing energy sources meaning state ownership, confiscate brazilian petrobras machinery etc... How backwards nationalizing can be? how bad can a bloated state be? how paralized and corrupt can your econoimy become?
it's really sad how LA elites can't manage to take the continent out of it's eternal retrograde state.

It's amazing how good Hollywood is at putting dictators on their thrones. Absolutely amazing! We should execute all actors/actresses now.

Siskel & Rocco give it two thumbs up. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

i can't stand Chavez. He is the main man in LA now. HIs influence is behind Bolivia and Equador. The first is nationalizing energy sources meaning state ownership, confiscate brazilian petrobras machinery etc... How backwards nationalizing can be? how bad can a bloated state be? how paralized and corrupt can your econoimy become?
it's really sad how LA elites can't manage to take the continent out of it's eternal retrograde state.


I dunno... I had a conversation with a few people in the business at a party in LA (a few blocks from where Nixon went to high school) over the weekend and they all agreed that Chavez is bad news and that it's a fairly wide spread belief amongst many here. Painting LA/Hollywood with that broad of a brush shows that you've let others do the thinking for you. :idea:

-- or maybe you were talking about the elites in this LA?

i can't stand Chavez. He is the main man in LA now. HIs influence is behind Bolivia and Equador. The first is nationalizing energy sources meaning state ownership, confiscate brazilian petrobras machinery etc... How backwards nationalizing can be? how bad can a bloated state be? how paralized and corrupt can your econoimy become?
it's really sad how LA elites can't manage to take the continent out of it's eternal retrograde state.

I agree, and we know how it ends with the likes of Chavez, it ends in pure tyrany, a state with no checks and balances can only end in one way, power corrupts, there is no historical truth more clear.

My guess is that Chavez can ride the anti-American wave for some time yet, and the oil revenues should mask the disasterous road he is taking the economy on for a long time yet. It will however end in disaster for the Venezualan people, either he or his succesors will bring it, that much is certain.

I dunno... I had a conversation with a few people in the business at a party in LA (a few blocks from where Nixon went to high school) over the weekend and they all agreed that Chavez is bad news and that it's a fairly wide spread belief amongst many here. Painting LA/Hollywood with that broad of a brush shows that you've let others do the thinking for you. :idea:

-- or maybe you were talking about the elites in this LA?

LA= Latin America. :rolleyes:

I agree, and we know how it ends with the likes of Chavez, it ends in pure tyrany, a state with no checks and balances can only end in one way, power corrupts, there is no historical truth more clear.

My guess is that Chavez can ride the anti-American wave for some time yet, and the oil revenues should mask the disasterous road he is taking the economy on for a long time yet. It will however end in disaster for the Venezualan people, either he or his succesors will bring it, that much is certain.

i just read caracas is one of the most expensive places in the world to rent an apartment. more than London.
Chavez is not responsible for this particular but it's a sign something is wrong in that economy already.

LA= Latin America. :rolleyes:

I thought you were talking about Los Angeles as well considering the OPs.... allusion.... to Hollywood's responsibility for Chavez coming to power.

I thought you were talking about Los Angeles as well considering the OPs.... allusion.... to Hollywood's responsibility for Chavez coming to power.

is there any Hollywood responsability? i didn't know that. I thought it was a debility in the venezuelan political "elite" though i cringe from calling irresponsible weak fearfull and corrupt businessman an elite. Chavez was stronger than those debilitated rulers.

LA= Latin America. :rolleyes:

Thanks for clarifying who you were ambiguously referring to as your painted them with your big fat brush.

Venezuela could be a wealthy economy... beautifull women. caribbean influence. too bad.
chavez can only fall if he becomes too ambitious. otherwise we are seeing another castro.

Maybe I should just quote song lyrics to respond to threads today....:cool:

Neon lights, a nobel prize
The mirror speaks, the reflection lies
You dont have to follow me
Only you can set me free
I sell the things you need to be
Im the smiling face on your t.v.
Im the cult of personality
I exploit you still you love me

I tell you one and one makes three
Im the cult of personality
Like joseph stalin and ghandi
Im the cult of personality

I thought you were talking about Los Angeles as well considering the OPs.... allusion.... to Hollywood's responsibility for Chavez coming to power.


Yeah and all this time I thought the latest about Hugo Chavez financing Danny Glover's movies was at least peripherally part of that thought.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274564,00.html

is there any Hollywood responsability? i didn't know that. I thought it was a debility in the venezuelan political "elite" though i cringe from calling irresponsible weak fearfull and corrupt businessman an elite. Chavez was stronger than those debilitated rulers.


Nor did I. Again, the OP asked whether it was "Another glorious victory for the global anti-american, leftish, mini-power, champions of the oppressed?" That, typically, has meant Hollywood.

I could be wrong in my interpretation though but it doesn't change the fact that the OP offers no actual solution to the problem, only accusations.

Nor did I. Again, the OP asked whether it was "Another glorious victory for the global anti-american, leftish, mini-power, champions of the oppressed?" That, typically, has meant Hollywood.

No it was not aimed at 'Hollywood' specifically, rather at the global anti-American movement, which may or may not include many members of leftish media elites.

That many on the left in Europe and elsewhere (and I am not talking about your liberals/dems; I mean the left) support Chavez in one form or another is ironic because now Chavez is closing down media outlets he does not like. Free speech was something dear to Socialism I used to think. I do not see anyone protesting however.

what is worse for LA (colkers)
corrupt lefty govts
or
corrupt rightie govts

I guess we'll see if the natiuonalized oil $$ makes it to the people

what is worse for LA (colkers)
corrupt lefty govts
or
corrupt rightie govts

I guess we'll see if the natiuonalized oil $$ makes it to the people


right or left oil $$ rarely does.

right or left oil $$ rarely does.

so why does a person getting screwed by a rightie Junta think they are better off than one living under a leftie junta?

so why does a person getting screwed by a rightie Junta think they are better off than one living under a leftie junta?

'Nuther Workers Paradise now though.

Anyone who throws stones at Uncle Sam is popular in Latin America (at least for a while).
The people at RCTV should be happy that they weren't taken out and shot.

what is worse for LA (colkers)
corrupt lefty govts
or
corrupt rightie govts

I guess we'll see if the natiuonalized oil $$ makes it to the people

that is not the question.. corruption is endemic in latin america. the question could be:
what is better to combat corruption: an open society regulated by elections and a free press or a benevolent tyrant whose will is unquestionable?
an open society can report corruption. an authoritarian regime can create all sorts of cover ups for corruption.
otoh the left will ask the oppressed masses which regime is better. chavez may show a surprising support from the working class and the unemployed. why? because the congress and the democratic proccess only represents a parcel of the society. the open society is a distant reality for those people. the democratic rights and the concepts of civility apply to the middle class and above. poor people have no idea of what habeas corpus means. if and when they go to jail they get beat up and no one cares.
the reality of latin america is that democracy is a farce, a façade, a costume ball.
i will give 2 examples within the brazilian society:
a cop can ask you your "work identity card". if you are not working you can go to jail, according to the constitution. cause you are a bum. now think about this in a society w/ a chronic case of unemployment..
second example: we have what's called "special prison". if one has a bachelor degree he goes to a special prison. the common prison, inhabited by the poor is rathole where the devil is afraid to set his foot.. so this is democracy in a latin american country. now you understand why a tyrant has the sympathy of the people.

so why does a person getting screwed by a rightie Junta think they are better off than one living under a leftie junta?

both are similar. both employ a tactical politics called populism. you make concessions to the masses, give them some cash(actual), promote employment and at the same time create a frankenstein system of economic privilege based on state economy.
both left and right juntas are nationalistic and take pride on militaristic intervention. both are moralists and combat corruption. both happen in nations w/a tradition of corruption that works itself within the congress and media: everyone is tied to everyone through favours. political and economic favours. except the paisano who gets screw$d night and day and gets nothing.

that is not the question.. corruption is endemic in latin america. the question could be:
what is better to combat corruption: an open society regulated by elections and a free press or a benevolent tyrant whose will is unquestionable?
an open society can report corruption. an authoritarian regime can create all sorts of cover ups for corruption.
otoh the left will ask the oppressed masses which regime is better. chavez may show a surprising support from the working class and the unemployed. why? because the congress and the democratic proccess only represents a parcel of the society. the open society is a distant reality for those people. the democratic rights and the concepts of civility apply to the middle class and above. poor people have no idea of what habeas corpus means. if and when they go to jail they get beat up and no one cares.
the reality of latin america is that democracy is a farce, a façade, a costume ball.
i will give 2 examples within the brazilian society:
a cop can ask you your "work identity card". if you are not working you can go to jail, according to the constitution. cause you are a bum. now think about this in a society w/ a chronic case of unemployment..
second example: we have what's called "special prison". if one has a bachelor degree he goes to a special prison. the common prison, inhabited by the poor is rathole where the devil is afraid to set his foot.. so this is democracy in a latin american country. now you understand why a tyrant has the sympathy of the people.

......


both are similar. both employ a tactical politics called populism. you make concessions to the masses, give them some cash(actual), promote employment and at the same time create a frankenstein system of economic privilege based on state economy.
both left and right juntas are nationalistic and take pride on militaristic intervention. both are moralists and combat corruption. both happen in nations w/a tradition of corruption that works itself within the congress and media: everyone is tied to everyone through favours. political and economic favours. except the paisano who gets screw$d night and day and gets nothing.




What is it with some cultures that make them so prone to corruption?

both are similar. both employ a tactical politics called populism. you make concessions to the masses, give them some cash(actual), promote employment and at the same time create a frankenstein system of economic privilege based on state economy.
both left and right juntas are nationalistic and take pride on militaristic intervention. both are moralists and combat corruption. both happen in nations w/a tradition of corruption that works itself within the congress and media: everyone is tied to everyone through favours. political and economic favours. except the paisano who gets screw$d night and day and gets nothing.

which is why I wonder why Paisano gettin' screwed by the right looks down upon paisano getting crewed by the left

What is it with some cultures that make them so prone to corruption?

Portuguese colonization and it's heritage of bloated bureaucracy.. Brazil was not only colonized by the portuguese but the courts established here by the end of the 18th century. Brasil's "independence" was conducted by the portuguese prince, Dom Pedro. The republic came almost 50 yrs later, basically to burn the debt of big farmers. the state was always a businness opportunity and never a moral compass.
the "other" latin america is spanish and has different problems leading to the same results: a demoralized state and an elite disconnected w/ their people to whom they are unable to give the civility which the elite believe to be promoting.

which is why I wonder why Paisano gettin' screwed by the right looks down upon paisano getting crewed by the left

there is alot of paisano sincere involvement w/ the left unlike the right which is always artificial. problem is: the results are both disastrous and based on state economy.
democracy is a big challenge for latin america. it was going on well till chavez happened. he is behind bolivia and equador, bothe threatening the open economy. .

Things is, is that Chavez is indeed, not anti American as some here proclaim. He is very anti Bush, but does indeed like the country itself, and the people. Unfortunately, some can't differentiate between hating the President, and loving the country, as they try to cull them together into one.

Not defending Chavez here, just saying, he's not anti American.

that is not the question.. corruption is endemic in latin america. the question could be:
what is better to combat corruption: an open society regulated by elections and a free press or a benevolent tyrant whose will is unquestionable?
an open society can report corruption. an authoritarian regime can create all sorts of cover ups for corruption.
.

if the right junta is closed society with no elections and no free press
and so is the left and both are run by not-so benevolent tyrants

what is the difference in turds when they only change the color of their hats?

a lefty benevolent dictator is fascist btw, lefty and dictator are mutually exclusive
it does not matter what supposed political theory they espouse
judge what they do not what they say

Things is, is that Chavez is indeed, not anti American as some here proclaim. He is very anti Bush, but does indeed like the country itself, and the people. Unfortunately, some can't differentiate between hating the President, and loving the country, as they try to cull them together into one.

Not defending Chavez here, just saying, he's not anti American.

does he wellcome american businness in venezuela? does he let CNN tv network operate freely?
what chavez likes or dislikes and his personal taste are not important. it's how he is shutting down freedom of speech and nationalizing the economy that matters.

if the right junta is closed society with no elections and no free press
and so is the left and both are run by not-so benevolent tyrants

what is the difference in turds when they only change the color of their hats?

a lefty benevolent dictator is fascist btw, lefty and dictator are mutually exclusive
it does not matter what supposed political theory they espouse
judge what they do not what they say

lefty and dictator are not exclusive. on the contrary: the left sees the so called individual liberties as an illusion of the capitalist opression machine. the capitalist liberal democracy takes away from the worker the property of the means of production and gives him an illusion of freedom in the form of freedom of speech which is used by owners of the media to promote exploitation. this is leftist ideology 101.
a leftist dictator like castro makes sure the capitalist political propaganda does not illude the cuban citizen into voting on the traitors of his class by shutting down elections.
if castro is not leftist then the left is a fairy tale.

Another glorious victory for the global anti-american, leftish, mini-power, champions of the oppressed?


I'm proud to say I've joined the global anti-american leftish...........

I've just banned the kids from drinking Coke. How anti-american is that ?

......i will give 2 examples within the brazilian society:
a cop can ask you your "work identity card". if you are not working you can go to jail, according to the constitution. cause you are a bum. now think about this in a society w/ a chronic case of unemployment..
second example: we have what's called "special prison". if one has a bachelor degree he goes to a special prison. the common prison, inhabited by the poor is rathole where the devil is afraid to set his foot.. so this is democracy in a latin american country. now you understand why a tyrant has the sympathy of the people.


The main problem with Brazilian society is the sad state the national football team has fallen into. Did not impress me at Germany 2006.

The main problem with Brazilian society is the sad state the national football team has fallen into. Did not impress me at Germany 2006.

that was one of our lowest moments in history. i saw desperation here. true desperation. we may recover our genius on the cup after the next one. we need a new generation.

that was one of our lowest moments in history. i saw desperation here. true desperation. we may recover our genius on the cup after the next one. we need a new generation.


Tell me you've been to a Flamengo - Fluminense game and I will bow to you forever.

Tell me you've been to a Flamengo - Fluminense game and I will bow to you forever.

the mythical Fla Flu.. yes. though i am Botafogo myself. the best brazilian writer ever Nelson Rodrigues was a fanatical of the fla flu. i highly recommend his theatre plays. wonderfull. he had a daily football columm. actually his brother was the man behind building maracana stadium.

does he wellcome american businness in venezuela? does he let CNN tv network operate freely?
what chavez likes or dislikes and his personal taste are not important. it's how he is shutting down freedom of speech and nationalizing the economy that matters.

Are you Venezuelan? If you are, then indeed you should care very much. Don't you think? And if you're not, you should ask yourself how does it impact you? And how does it impact America (if you're American, don't know if you are or not, I assume, yes). Is what Chavez does or does not do in his own country affect our freedoms in the US? I submit that you should be a lot more worried about Bush, and his eroding of our freedoms that he has undertaken since he took office that is a lot more worrisome. Or is it that you believe Chavez is the "boogeyman" and he might control a lot of oil within his country that really worries you.

We, have been putting up with China's far worse BS for years on end. Why? Because they supply us with cheap goods, and cheap labor. China is far worse as far as human rights violations, and suppression of free speech goes than Chavez ever will be. Why are you not worried about them? I'm just wondering. Because it appears that you are so concerned about Chavez mostly because he doesn't like Bush, and he sits on a lot of oil. Funny how independent polls taken of residents of Venezuela rate Chavez very highly amonst the people that elected him, but if he does something "we" don't like, all of a sudden, he's a "bad" man. Never mind the humanitarian relief he provides every year to thousands of Americans throughout the US with free heating oil and all.

the mythical Fla Flu.. yes. though i am Botafogo myself. the best brazilian writer ever Nelson Rodrigues was a fanatical of the fla flu. i highly recommend his theatre plays. wonderfull. he had a daily football columm. actually his brother was the man behind building maracana stadium.


One of the things I've promised myself before I depart this earth is to visit Brazil and witness the spectacle of a Fla Flu game at the Maracana in amongst the noise, the color, those Brazilian women and ofcourse the magic of Brazilian football.

One day.....

lefty and dictator are not exclusive. on the contrary: the left sees the so called individual liberties as an illusion of the capitalist opression machine. the capitalist liberal democracy takes away from the worker the property of the means of production and gives him an illusion of freedom in the form of freedom of speech which is used by owners of the media to promote exploitation. this is leftist ideology 101.
a leftist dictator like castro makes sure the capitalist political propaganda does not illude the cuban citizen into voting on the traitors of his class by shutting down elections.
if castro is not leftist then the left is a fairy tale.

in a system purely run by the Proletariat? At it's peak theoretically you need few laws as everyone has equal goods and thus no need to steal. Communist anarchy isn't chaos (in theory) it is peace as there is no strife between haves and have nots. (never gonna happen, I know so don't go on the tangent)

Communism by nature is democratic, all this transitional oligarchical socialists states are nothing more than fascists states in Red Dresses. Any system like Cuba with basically A King is not communist nor socialist, it is exactly the same as a fascist state but spewing leftist rhetoric.

A sole leader with no elections is everything marx was arguing against

the Brazilian Food and Drinks

mmmmmm Caparhinas (sorry if I misspelled Colker)

in a system purely run by the Proletariat? At it's peak theoretically you need few laws as everyone has equal goods and thus no need to steal. Communist anarchy isn't chaos (in theory) it is peace as there is no strife between haves and have nots. (never gonna happen, I know so don't go on the tangent)

Communism by nature is democratic, all this transitional oligarchical socialists states are nothing more than fascists states in Red Dresses. Any system like Cuba with basically A King is not communist nor socialist, it is exactly the same as a fascist state but spewing leftist rhetoric.

A sole leader with no elections is everything marx was arguing against

God God I think you just swallowed Das Kapital.

in a system purely run by the Proletariat? At it's peak theoretically you need few laws as everyone has equal goods and thus no need to steal. Communist anarchy isn't chaos (in theory) it is peace as there is no strife between haves and have nots. (never gonna happen, I know so don't go on the tangent)

Communism by nature is democratic, all this transitional oligarchical socialists states are nothing more than fascists states in Red Dresses. Any system like Cuba with basically A King is not communist nor socialist, it is exactly the same as a fascist state but spewing leftist rhetoric.

A sole leader with no elections is everything marx was arguing against

So in which country has the true Democracy of Communism been most successfully demonstrated?

Are you Venezuelan? If you are, then indeed you should care very much. Don't you think? And if you're not, you should ask yourself how does it impact you? And how does it impact America (if you're American, don't know if you are or not, I assume, yes). Is what Chavez does or does not do in his own country affect our freedoms in the US? I submit that you should be a lot more worried about Bush, and his eroding of our freedoms that he has undertaken since he took office that is a lot more worrisome. Or is it that you believe Chavez is the "boogeyman" and he might control a lot of oil within his country that really worries you.

We, have been putting up with China's far worse BS for years on end. Why? Because they supply us with cheap goods, and cheap labor. China is far worse as far as human rights violations, and suppression of free speech goes than Chavez ever will be. Why are you not worried about them? I'm just wondering. Because it appears that you are so concerned about Chavez mostly because he doesn't like Bush, and he sits on a lot of oil. Funny how independent polls taken of residents of Venezuela rate Chavez very highly amonst the people that elected him, but if he does something "we" don't like, all of a sudden, he's a "bad" man. Never mind the humanitarian relief he provides every year to thousands of Americans throughout the US with free heating oil and all.

you are way off here. i am in brasil. chavez in venezuela has a deep impact in latin america. of course the acts of the US presidency also have an impact as much as a lot of acts in a world that's economically interconnected.
chavez eroding democracy in venezuela is not only disgusting and wrong but threatens the democratic stability in latin america. that's so clear i wonder how or why you can't see.
example: bolivia, backed by chavez, nationalized oil and confiscated installations fromm brazilian petrobras which invested in bolivian gaz refinement.
equador, also backed by chavez, is arresting congress members.
brasil has the strongest market of all these countries. the basic failures in latin america are: not investing in democratic political principles. not investing in an open market.
an open market would repell chavez..
the dominant elites made up a retrograde pact w/the militaries where their industries would be protected by import taxes therefore pushing their markets towards an artificial state. maybe that's why the continent is unable to support a democratic plural society: it's ctizens are not included as market but only as cheap labour.

the Brazilian Food and Drinks

mmmmmm Caparhinas (sorry if I misspelled Colker)

caipirinhas and feijoada. on hot day.. after going to the beach.

God God I think you just swallowed Das Kapital.

Really? Because Marx is very vague about what a future communist society was to look like. It was Lenin that claimed to have deciphered what Marx was intimating. In fact the only real clues that Marx gives is in his Manifesto where he asserts one's ability to fish in the afternoons in a communist society...

This is a primary problem with modernism based on his materialism...he unlike Proudhon or Fichte and other (better thinkers)...did not think that the problems of the world would be gone with the overthrow by the fictionalized proletariat.

But perhaps your reading of historical determinism...is futurist? utopist? But you are not getting there from Marx...perhaps Bakunin? In his utopianism you would have a fellow traveller in Aileen Kelly.

So in which country has the true Democracy of Communism been most successfully demonstrated?

Early Russia as exemplified by the peasant obschina. At least that is what is said about them by early Russian populists and Slavophiles.

It was said that before their corruption from above (the Tzar and mercantilism etc, etc.)...they worked as a coordinated and democratic group for the betterment of all and the detriment of none...

But perhaps your reading of historical determinism...is futurist? utopist? But you are not getting there from Marx...perhaps Bakunin? In his utopianism you would have a fellow traveller in Aileen Kelly.

My views on Marx and Historicism are now similar to Karl Popper.

The interest I had for reading the manifesto as an adolescent has long since evaporated.....along with my youthful idealism.....

/was going to quote Nietzsche again but I can see I am getting diminishing returns now... :)

My views on Marx and Historicism are now similar to Karl Popper.

The interest I had for reading the manifesto as an adolescent has long since evaporated.....along with my youthful idealism.....

/was going to quote Nietzsche again but I can see I am getting diminishing returns now... :)


besides, marx was totally against any idealism. isn't it a romantic expression of bourgeois ideology?

besides, marx was totally against any idealism. isn't it a romantic expression of bourgeois ideology?

He says just that in his Thesis on Feuerbach...but in the German Ideology and others he spends so much time trying to undo Hegel's paradigm that he sometimes falls prey to it. (Here he tries to undo it...In direct contrast to German philosophy which descends from heaven to earth, here we ascend from earth to heaven. That is to say, we do not set out from what men say, imagine, conceive, nor from men as narrated, thought of, imagined, conceived, in order to arrive at men in the flesh.)

But in Feuerbach...he says this...(The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it. ) Here he finds himself trapped into the negation of the self that Hegel writes about. One thinks...then does. Marx wants an active philosopher, but cannot break from the notion that one acts from the philosophers thoughts.

Early Russia as exemplified by the peasant obschina. At least that is what is said about them by early Russian populists and Slavophiles.

It was said that before their corruption from above (the Tzar and mercantilism etc, etc.)...they worked as a coordinated and democratic group for the betterment of all and the detriment of none...

........................and then they ate of the fruit?

........................and then they ate of the fruit?

No...it was forced down their throats...by the man.

No...it was forced down their throats...by the man.

Tsk, tsk........ain't that always the way it happens?

It was said that before their corruption from above (the Tzar and mercantilism etc, etc.)...they worked as a coordinated and democratic group for the betterment of all and the detriment of none...

So is "a healthy peasant class as a foundation for a whole nation. … A solid stock of small and middle peasants has been at all times the best protection against social evils"?

So is "a healthy peasant class as a foundation for a whole nation. … A solid stock of small and middle peasants has been at all times the best protection against social evils"?

You suffer from a crisis of context...

Thread is Godwinned...for no reason at all, but look now we know that Rydster knows a meaningless quote from Hitler!! Yea!! Of course he can't use it in reference to anything relevant so he dropped it here to tantalize us with thoughts of what else he might know. :rolleyes:

there is alot of paisano sincere involvement w/ the left unlike the right which is always artificial. problem is: the results are both disastrous and based on state economy.
democracy is a big challenge for latin america. it was going on well till chavez happened. he is behind bolivia and equador, bothe threatening the open economy. .

the historical /cultural mindset of LKatin America is to be lead by authority without question.

You suffer from a crisis of context...

Thread is Godwinned...for no reason at all, but look now we know that Rydster knows a meaningless quote from Hitler!! Yea!! Of course he can't use it in reference to anything relevant so he dropped it here to tantalize us with thoughts of what else he might know. :rolleyes:

in arts and culture early on you can see some aspects of it.
but like most revolutions they tend to be followed by suckier counter revolutions

on a much! smaller scale I see the Declaration of Independence vs. The Constitution in a similar vein.

but again leans to my 2 types of people theory
most of us folks
and 'the man'

the historical /cultural mindset of LKatin America is to be lead by authority without question.

"ideas out of context".. or "ideas w/ no context". Latin america has nations compromised w/the idea of liberal democracy but it's social structure acts on feudal, colonial, slavery values and economic relationships. therefore the democratic state becomes a farse and politicians it's buffoons.

"ideas out of context".. or "ideas w/ no context". Latin america has nations compromised w/the idea of liberal democracy but it's social structure acts on feudal, colonial, slavery values and economic relationships. therefore the democratic state becomes a farse and politicians it's buffoons.

the mindset has not graduated from Feudal

where is the Feudal system still functioning?

The Catholic Church
Pope King
Cardinal Duke
Bishop Lord
Priest Knight

both oppressing the (serf) masses
just another reason for secular based societies

KenB: What is it with some cultures that make them so prone to corruption?

I am not aware of any culture or political system that is not prone to corruption. Yes, there are degrees of corruption. Some are blunt, some are subtle (think about the US lobbying system), but corruption is everywhere.