Hi all. This is my first new thread on the board, although I've been posting replies for a short while, and been lurking for quite a long while. Some background so you know where I'm coming from:

I work as a mechanic in a shop that does about 90% custom bikes, i.e. frame comes from one place, parts kit comes from another, and I prep the frame, assemble the parts, set up the bike to the customers fit specs (a custom fit session is the jumping off point for all of these customers, with frame geometry and parts spec based on their needs), and have the customer come in for final fine-tuning and pick up (unless we ship it off to them or meet them at an event somewhere). I've got about 7 years' experience, working on everything from department store specials to National Champ tri rigs to handcycles, recumbents and stuff I didn't think existed outside of museums.

Anyway, I currently have the pleasure of working pretty exclusively with higher-end road groups from both Campy and Shimano. I can fairly easily appreciate the difference between the different component levels within a brand (more cogs out back, better finishing & tighter tolerances, more metal vs. plastic bits, bearings vs. bushings, Ti bolts vs. steel, etc.), but when it comes to comparing between brands, the lines of comparison become more blurred. To the point, when folks out there say something like, "Well, Chorus is the same as Dura-Ace," what exactly is their basis of comparison? Price point? Place in the pecking order of their respective brands? Technological advancements? Weight? Cool factor? What your favorite pro is on?

With the imminent introduction of 10 speeds throughout Shimano's line in the coming months and years, the gearing argument isn't going to hold water forever. So what is it? How do you stack up the groups of Campy and Shimano, and why?

i like the way campy ergo chorus shifters shifts better than the already excellent shimano ultegra shifters: the levers, esp. the thumb levers, seems a bit easier to control on the campy.

Record feels clunky to me, very mechanical compared to the smoothness of Dura Ace 9 or 10 speed. Record looks great and always shifted accurately, but loudly and seemed under tension, kind of wanting to jump to the next gear. Also, I just love the arguments from Campy fans that they can jump all cogs in one lever shift. When has anyone ever done that? I guess when that hill just jumps out of nowhere and you have to drop all your gears to climb it, or, when the flat suddenly, without notice, turns into a 1 mile 15% down hill and you need to grab all the gears now? I don't think I have ever shifted more than two cogs up or down in any instance at one time. I guess I keep my head up and look at the terrain ahead of me.

I'm not a mechanic, and I don't have a favorite pro, so perhaps my answer will be less encumbered by facts or technical data. When I bought my current bike 4 years ago, I tried it in both campy and shimano. I liked shimano better.

This year I was thinking of replacing shimano with campy. I tried a new campy bike vs.
shimano. I liked shimano. I simply liked the shifting action better. End of story.
Trying out both brands is the only way to go.

they both work this thread is dumb

Campy has always had a reputation for greater durability, closer tolerances, and designs that can be repaired/upgraded. These features aren't exclusive to Campy, obviously, but Campy does tend to win the comparison on those points. Historically, when you took apart a Shimano product, you tended to see fewer polished surfaces. I haven't held the current DA stuff in my hands, but I just built up my wife's Chorus bike and overhauled a friend's Ultegra bike last winter. There's little doubt in my mind that Chorus is a step above Ultegra, but I can't say if it's the equal of DA. Someone once said that Chorus and DA are the top of what "production" equipment can be, where Record is more like hand crafted by the best. All that said, I think the decision should be made on a price point basis, and then choose on things like which brake/shift levers you like. For many people, the issue of support and parts availabilty gives the win to Shimano, since their local shops don't stock Campy parts and the wrenches don't know Campy. (We have a local shop that told a rider that he should put Shimano on his bike since the bike was "built for Shimano, not for Campy." This tells you how ignorant shops can be on the topic.) Since I do all my own wrenching, and order parts in anticipation (and have never really had a Campy part fail catastophically), I use Campy exclusively, and have for the past 35 years.

Campy has always had a reputation for greater durability, closer tolerances, and designs that can be repaired/upgraded. These features aren't exclusive to Campy, obviously, but Campy does tend to win the comparison on those points. Historically, when you took apart a Shimano product, you tended to see fewer polished surfaces. I haven't held the current DA stuff in my hands, but I just built up my wife's Chorus bike and overhauled a friend's Ultegra bike last winter. There's little doubt in my mind that Chorus is a step above Ultegra, but I can't say if it's the equal of DA. Someone once said that Chorus and DA are the top of what "production" equipment can be, where Record is more like hand crafted by the best. All that said, I think the decision should be made on a price point basis, and then choose on things like which brake/shift levers you like. For many people, the issue of support and parts availabilty gives the win to Shimano, since their local shops don't stock Campy parts and the wrenches don't know Campy. (We have a local shop that told a rider that he should put Shimano on his bike since the bike was "built for Shimano, not for Campy." This tells you how ignorant shops can be on the topic.) Since I do all my own wrenching, and order parts in anticipation (and have never really had a Campy part fail catastophically), I use Campy exclusively, and have for the past 35 years.

thats all bs

Also, I just love the arguments from Campy fans that they can jump all cogs in one lever shift. When has anyone ever done that? I guess when that hill just jumps out of nowhere and you have to drop all your gears to climb it, or, when the flat suddenly, without notice, turns into a 1 mile 15% down hill and you need to grab all the gears now? I don't think I have ever shifted more than two cogs up or down in any instance at one time. I guess I keep my head up and look at the terrain ahead of me.

are you serious? if you're going to stand up to sprint, you should move up 3 gears or so. this is quickly done with campy.

sd

Hi all. This is my first new thread on the board, although I've been posting replies for a short while, and been lurking for quite a long while. Some background so you know where I'm coming from:

I work as a mechanic in a shop that does about 90% custom bikes, i.e. frame comes from one place, parts kit comes from another, and I prep the frame, assemble the parts, set up the bike to the customers fit specs (a custom fit session is the jumping off point for all of these customers, with frame geometry and parts spec based on their needs), and have the customer come in for final fine-tuning and pick up (unless we ship it off to them or meet them at an event somewhere). I've got about 7 years' experience, working on everything from department store specials to National Champ tri rigs to handcycles, recumbents and stuff I didn't think existed outside of museums.

Anyway, I currently have the pleasure of working pretty exclusively with higher-end road groups from both Campy and Shimano. I can fairly easily appreciate the difference between the different component levels within a brand (more cogs out back, better finishing & tighter tolerances, more metal vs. plastic bits, bearings vs. bushings, Ti bolts vs. steel, etc.), but when it comes to comparing between brands, the lines of comparison become more blurred. To the point, when folks out there say something like, "Well, Chorus is the same as Dura-Ace," what exactly is their basis of comparison? Price point? Place in the pecking order of their respective brands? Technological advancements? Weight? Cool factor? What your favorite pro is on?

With the imminent introduction of 10 speeds throughout Shimano's line in the coming months and years, the gearing argument isn't going to hold water forever. So what is it? How do you stack up the groups of Campy and Shimano, and why?
He is not asking which is better. Rather he is asking people to expalin/justify how the groups line up. For example, I've heard it said (before Shimano 10 speed) that Record is in a class by itself.........Dura Ace is more comparable to Choras......Ultegra to whatever the next in the Campy line is etc. The original poster is asking how and why we think the groups line up. At least that is what i think he's asking.

The argument I've always heard is that Record is unique because of all the Carbon and the price points (again pre D/A 10 speed) of D/A and Choras line up better than D/A & record.

Personally, I think Record, with all the Carbon, looks cheap.......so I wouldn't even consider it. Now I think D/A 10 speed has no comparison in the Campy line. It will be interesting to compare the new Ultegra with Choras.

I have a question for the original Poster: Since you have installed so many high end component groups, which would you prefer to install? Which one do you have the least initial installation problems with? I don't install component groups enough to have any frame of reference, but have heard two different High end shop owners say that Shimano is engineered so well that it almost installs itself. "Campy may have more Cachet', but Shimano just works." was a direct quote. Curious about your experience.

Len

thats all bs

There's nothing like a clear an concise rebuttal to add quality to the discussion.

There is little or no real world difference in overall performance or durability between Shimano and Campy. If there were, we'd be hearing grumbling from the pro's. It comes down to personal preference.

I like Campy for the flat hoods and crisp shifting. I dislike Campy when it comes to finding parts at your local bike shop.

I like Shimano for the ease of shifting up and down quickly without without moving your hands. I dislike the dip in the hoods of Shimano's shifters.

Neither manufacturer has found a way to compensate for my lack of skill or fitness. In the end, I pick Campy because it's more comfortable for me to ride.

There is little or no real world difference in overall performance or durability between Shimano and Campy. If there were, we'd be hearing grumbling from the pro's. It comes down to personal preference.

I like Campy for the flat hoods and crisp shifting. I dislike Campy when it comes to finding parts at your local bike shop.

I like Shimano for the ease of shifting up and down quickly without without moving your hands. I dislike the dip in the hoods of Shimano's shifters.

Neither manufacturer has found a way to compensate for my lack of skill or fitness. In the end, I pick Campy because it's more comfortable for me to ride.
I disagree with the durability remark, as pros are constantly having their components replaced for them before wear becomes a factor. From a recreational (or Fred) perspective, durability means lasting for years, not just one season. Secondly, user serviceable components will be more durable because high wear items (bushings, bearings, etc) can be replaced without replacing the entire component. At the pricepoint I shopped, I went with Campy Veloce instead of 105. The veloce parts seemed more robust and I would be able to rebuild the shifters in my garage, not so with 105. From this standpoint, the Campy is more durable. Does it work better? That's up to personal preference and the size of your hands (shimano seems to be designed for smaller hands than campy). Is it lighter? No- the veloce is slightly heavier, that's the cost for durability and comfort at a mid-range pricepoint.
However I have to agree 100% with the parts availability thing. The shops up here are very BMX oriented, to the point where its hard to find a mid to high level road bike in the shops at all, and many of the employees haven't even heard of Campy.
Lastly, don't underestimate comfort. This goes for either brand. The less comfortable you are, the less you'll be able to ride. So in a way, the companies can improve your perceived endurance :D

The durability issue is as completely subjective as any aspect of the two companies lines when talking about one being better than the other. Everyone says Campy is more durable but there is really not much basis for that arguement. Two things that make it seem like that is true are that Shimano bikes outsell Campy bikes in the US (and to be fair I am am talking the mid to high level road lines) by over a 3 to 1 margin. So you will see much more Shimano bikes on the road, and much more Shimano bikes breaking down just based on the pure numbers. Also Campy has a nostalgia factor about their parts and so people are more apt to hold onto them and try to fix them rather than toss them. Dura-Ace is just as durable as Campy Record if properly maintained. I have a 1st generation Dura-Ace 9 speed group that has only had to be overhauled once in 45,000 miles. It has been properly cared for, and my overhaul was only becuase I rode 3 straight days on a light tour in the rain. You just have to take care of your stuff.

Now, that all said, I will be the first to admit that I am a bona fide Campy guy. I love Campy and 3 of my 4 road bikes are Campy. So I am not jumping in on either side, just trying to set the record as straight as it can be on this subject. The whole Campy is more durable is just as subjective as any other aspect of the performance debate. Campy shifters can be rebuilt, but that is a service issue, not a durability issue. If it were a durability issue, you wouldn't have to rebuild it in the first place.

Anyways... as with everything else with this debate, this is an opinion more or less. But it comes from someone who has riden and worked on both lines for the past 15 years.

I had DA 9-spd on my bike a few years back. Great ouf ot the box. After only about 2k miles, the levers started to feel sloppy (not to mention cheap). Quite a bit of play. The cranks-the DA logo had basically worn off, and they looked like crap. The shifting went from butter to okay, sometimes klunky-feeling. The Rear Mech worked okay, but didn't have the polished look of Chorus. The BB (octalink) was totally trashed after 2k miles-I took the thing apart and aluminum shreds fell out-the cups had disentigrated! I expected more from this price point. I rode an Ultegra Cannondale for a couple of weeks recently (it was new) and at that stage in it's life, the Ultegra was performing great. Probably not true after some miles, though.

I currently have 2003 Record/Chorus. Sure, I like the shifting setup better (my first bike, a Lemond A d'H, had Mirage-great spec!) But, what I really notice is the little things, like the finish of the cranks. 3k miles, and the cranks (Record) look like new! The Chorus levers are finished so nicely, it is kind of cool just to wrap your fingers around them during the ride and feel the quality. BB is soooo smooth. Brakes are well thought-out (no dual pivot in the rear, it is too easy to lock up the rear wheel and cause a crash) I don't care for the carbon look of the new shifters/rear mech, as I prefer the older, all polished finish. The shifting, while precise (you know when you switch gears, definitely can be felt), is heavy. It seems to require some tweaking occasionally Still, it is getting smoother, not worse (like DA was at this point in the game). Hubs roll better (as nice as any I have seen).

Basically, either group works, but for me, Record seems to look nicer (at least the alloy parts), shifting is more comfortable for me, no plastiky feel in the shifters, and the group seems to be higher quality throughout. Finish is the best. DA-9 was great out of the box, but really was "wearing out when Campy was wearing in".

There is little or no real world difference in overall performance or durability between Shimano and Campy. If there were, we'd be hearing grumbling from the pro's. It comes down to personal preference.


Sorry, can't resist posting this picture of Zabel's grumbling ;-).

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/tech/?id=jul13-1

... arguments from Campy fans that they can jump all cogs in one lever shift. When has anyone ever done that? ....

on almost every ride in the Berkeley/East Bay hills (amazing places to ride, road or mtb!)
it's great to have the precise controls. An analogy is like having stick shift that can shift from 4th to 2nd in a sports car like a Corvette.

http://www.campyonly.com/shorts/2004/tour_leaders.html

Hi all. This is my first new thread on the board, although I've been posting replies for a short while, and been lurking for quite a long while. Some background so you know where I'm coming from:

I work as a mechanic in a shop that does about 90% custom bikes, i.e. frame comes from one place, parts kit comes from another, and I prep the frame, assemble the parts, set up the bike to the customers fit specs (a custom fit session is the jumping off point for all of these customers, with frame geometry and parts spec based on their needs), and have the customer come in for final fine-tuning and pick up (unless we ship it off to them or meet them at an event somewhere). I've got about 7 years' experience, working on everything from department store specials to National Champ tri rigs to handcycles, recumbents and stuff I didn't think existed outside of museums.

Anyway, I currently have the pleasure of working pretty exclusively with higher-end road groups from both Campy and Shimano. I can fairly easily appreciate the difference between the different component levels within a brand (more cogs out back, better finishing & tighter tolerances, more metal vs. plastic bits, bearings vs. bushings, Ti bolts vs. steel, etc.), but when it comes to comparing between brands, the lines of comparison become more blurred. To the point, when folks out there say something like, "Well, Chorus is the same as Dura-Ace," what exactly is their basis of comparison? Price point? Place in the pecking order of their respective brands? Technological advancements? Weight? Cool factor? What your favorite pro is on?

With the imminent introduction of 10 speeds throughout Shimano's line in the coming months and years, the gearing argument isn't going to hold water forever. So what is it? How do you stack up the groups of Campy and Shimano, and why?


WHICH SHIMANO MODEL EQUATES TO WHICH CAMPY MODEL? ON WHAT BASIS? JUSTIFY!!

I AM SHOUTING! Doesn't anybody ever read the question and other posts?

TF

I often change 2-3 cogs at a time. Everytime I sprint, everytime I jump, everytime I attack, everytime I change from seated to standing on a hill and everytime I change from standing to sitting on a hill. I must do this a couple of dozen times everytime I ride a bike on a hard day.


PS:
I've got a riddle for you.

What sound does Shimano make when you shift?

Crick Crick Crick



Record feels clunky to me, very mechanical compared to the smoothness of Dura Ace 9 or 10 speed. Record looks great and always shifted accurately, but loudly and seemed under tension, kind of wanting to jump to the next gear. Also, I just love the arguments from Campy fans that they can jump all cogs in one lever shift. When has anyone ever done that? I guess when that hill just jumps out of nowhere and you have to drop all your gears to climb it, or, when the flat suddenly, without notice, turns into a 1 mile 15% down hill and you need to grab all the gears now? I don't think I have ever shifted more than two cogs up or down in any instance at one time. I guess I keep my head up and look at the terrain ahead of me.

At this engineering level, there isnt much left for both gruppo to have significant advantage over ther other. I would argue Carbon Record is more advanced than Aluminum DA; it is just a different design approach. Even Chorus has the delicate workmanship to rival against DA now.

Kinda like debating if a W8 engine is equivalent to a traditonal V8.

PS: I've got a riddle for you.

What sound does Shimano make when you shift?

Crick Crick Crick

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Took me completely by surprise. Excellent!

...He is not asking which is better. Rather he is asking people to expalin/justify how the groups line up. For example, I've heard it said (before Shimano 10 speed) that Record is in a class by itself.........Dura Ace is more comparable to Choras......Ultegra to whatever the next in the Campy line is etc. The original poster is asking how and why we think the groups line up. At least that is what i think he's asking...

...I have a question for the original Poster: Since you have installed so many high end component groups, which would you prefer to install? Which one do you have the least initial installation problems with? I don't install component groups enough to have any frame of reference, but have heard two different High end shop owners say that Shimano is engineered so well that it almost installs itself. "Campy may have more Cachet', but Shimano just works." was a direct quote. Curious about your experience...

Len

Sorry - been off the board for a while and I just got back.

Len, you are correct - I was wondering what standard people used when making direct comparisons of groups between brands. As far as what builds up better:

DA 10 BB/crank combo is definitely easier to install. With a well-prepped shell, you can turn the cups in pretty much by hand, and then use the included tool to snug it up with very little fear of either under-torquing or rounding out the splines. AFAIK, no one has made a torque wrnech compatible tool for the new outboard-bearing BB's, so it's a good thing they install so easy. Record/Chorus BB's are a little more fragile (frah-gee-lay: must be Italian ;) ) because there's fewer splines in there than, say, an Ultegra BB, but they still go in fine if you're careful.

Once the BB is in, it's 6-1/2 a dozen on the crank arms. Same for the derailleurs and brake calipers (remember to Ti-Prep all those Record bolts). IMHO, Campy calipers are a little easier to adjust throughout the line (e.g. orbital pad adjustment and the ability to center the caliper without having to loosen the fixing bolt, even on Centaur calipers; you lose some or all of that as you go down the Shimano ladder), and having the brake Q/R on the lever keeps it away from potentially seizing up down the road if you ride in salty conditions (coastal, winter, etc.). And you can use Mavic brakes (which lack Q/R's) and still be able to open the calipers up to change wheels. Shimano (and Mavic) cartridge brake pads, however, are easier to replace compared to Campy ones, provided you don't totally unscrew and lose the set screw that holds the pads in place.

Speaking of levers, it's a bit more of a pain to get to the clamp bolt on Ergo levers, but just a bit. Routing both sets of cable under the tape is no problem if the bar has double grooves; some single grooves aren't too deep and a few bars out there don't have grooves at all. Not that that affects the build any; just the tactile sensation for the end-user. Shimano's pre-cut shift housings (from the lever to the frame) are rarely the correct length, so that doesn't really make the build any easier. Campy shift housing is a bit brittle; if you're too enthusiastic grinding the ends flat or bending them to fit the curve of the bar, the sheathing will crack, exposing the longitudinal strands underneath. Having so many intermediate clicks on a Campy front shifter gives you more room for error when it comes to cable tension; with Shimano levers, too much cable tension overrides the softer, intermediate clicks that are the trim positions for the front derailleur.

Oddly, Shimano delivers DA 10 derailleurs with the limit screws buried - we're talking to like the third and eighth cog here. My guess is that it's to keep mechanics honest, instead of just cabling up and not checking the limits against the cassette and chainrings.

Can't say much about the headset issue - most folks choose Kings for high-end and Cane Creek for mid-range, if they're not already integrated into the hrad tube. Pedals, of course, are a whole other can of worms that I'm not going to open here.

Oh - Campy packaging is nicer, and the manuals smell better. In case you ever wondered. Italglish is more readable than Japanglish, but most mechanics never look at that stuff; they just recycle it along with all the packaging. We make it a point to pass it along to the customer, for liability reasons mostly; I think it would be much easier to intuit how to fix your bike than to read some of that stuff.

My overall impressions from an assembler's perspective is that Shimano bikes go together a bit smoother, but I have more fun building Campy bikes because it happens less frequently.

WHICH SHIMANO MODEL EQUATES TO WHICH CAMPY MODEL? ON WHAT BASIS? JUSTIFY!!

I AM SHOUTING! Doesn't anybody ever read the question and other posts?

TF

change the question?

In my 12 years of working in the cycling industry I can say .....Campy or Shimano both build up easily and work great! Campy Record is more expensive than Shimano Dura Ace, but I believe the quality is the same.


The Shimano / Campy Tool – This type of tool can be found almost anywhere people pedal a bike. This tool can be identified by the following characteristics 1) believes that their particular brand of components is the best hands down, period 2) is willing to spend countless hours extolling the virtues of the preferred group 3) believes a jihad is necessary to purge the planet of the other component group 4) bleeding eyes – this only applies to the Campy Tool. They believe that seeing an Italian frame w/o Campy parts will cause their eyes to bleed!!! The Campy Tool will spend hours photo shopping a Colnago frame with Shimano parts and replacing them with Campy parts. They hate the Rabobank team.