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  1. #26
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    Unless you're gifted with genetics, you know who you are, never go to the gym, never stretch, yet you're destroying hills. For the rest of us, overcoming back pain involves some work. Throwing $300 at a bike that doesn't fit, isn't going to solve the problem.

    Firstly, buy a bike that fits... Spend a lot of time finding the right bike. That should cost $0, it should included in the purchase. Spending $300 after to try to force a bike on your seems, well... stupid. MOST IMPORTANTLY, IMO back pain is not bike fitting. It's your flexibility and fitness. I stand by this. It's just logical. When bent over, every 10 lbs = 250 lbs of pressure on your lower back. And the largest muscles that are pulling down on your lower back are your glutes and hamstring. STRETCH STRETCH STRETCH.

    Anyone suffering back pain should firstly have bought the right sized bike. Then should lose weight, increase fitness and flexibility before resorting to $300 for what may be a scam.

    I say scam, because even if they do manage to get a bike to fit you without back pain, it's not doing you anything good. You still have inadequate flexibility, fitness, what's the point? Aren't we all cycling to be fit, flexible? And maybe, just maybe it fits, but the bike still not the right bike for you. If you need to spend $300 + additional cost of parts, it wasn't the right bike to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by skibud2 View Post
    Hi,

    A few years back, I bought a 58cm version of the following bike:

    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/ve...o-race/p/65271

    The retailer recommended the 58cm size saying that it would be easier to adjust over the 56cm. Since then, my lower back started hurting (a lot!). I tried to mitigate the pain by adjusting the reach using a 100mm/17degree stem, without success.

    My back still hurts so I went to another bike fitter today. After spending $300+ for the fitting, they said that the current frame is just too big, and they cannot adjust it to fit me. They also thought that my back pain was due to the large bike frame.

    They recommended me buying this frame as a large:

    https://www.storckworld.com/bike-fin...erfast-pro-g2/

    This is another $4k, so I don't want to buy it. However, I would love to start biking again. They said my body shape is different so I need a frame that is both tall and has a short top tube length. Otherwise I would need to buy a custom frame. They also said it would be difficult to find a frame that will fit me.

    Is this a sales scam? How can I tell if they are correct?

    Thanks,

    Mike
    Last edited by ruckus; 07-01-2018 at 07:49 AM.

  2. #27
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    What was your prior bike setup? If that worked, going from those would have been a good transition and then tuning from there. They are attempting to yank your wallet into a new bike. Hard to diagnose even though the bike looks appropriately sized for you. If you've been riding regularly and have done this drill, the experience to gauge basic geometries comes with what is or is not appropriate for your body and style of riding.

    An overall good fitness routine to strengthen the entire body will help for the varying aches. That won't come quickly though, may take a few months and trial error to dial in.

  3. #28
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    IF you were getting fitted by either an orthopedist (or somebody else with an MD after their name) because you have some issue, like scoliosis, or were a top-tier pro cyclists, then yes, I could see a $300 charge for a MEDICALLY professional fitting.

    OTOH, the OP got screwed, glued and plastered. Please, OP, share the name of this retailer who hosed you down for 3 U.S. Grants, then tried to sell you on a bike for 1 grand over retail. Chutzpah like that deserves to be made public!
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Why would he need one? He's got the OP and his bike...if he can't tell from looking at him on his current bike he should find another job.
    Because having an adjustable bike would allow the fitter to be completely unbiased. With an already existing bike, sometimes fitters will feel obligated to fit the bike for their client because client doesn't want to hear "buy a new bike". Besides, $300 is a lot to pay for a fitting and I'd expect such adjustable bike and Retul system.

  5. #30
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Because having an adjustable bike would allow the fitter to be completely unbiased. With an already existing bike, sometimes fitters will feel obligated to fit the bike for their client because client doesn't want to hear "buy a new bike". Besides, $300 is a lot to pay for a fitting and I'd expect such adjustable bike and Retul system.
    Eh...I guess. I'd think that any legit/unbiased fitter would look at the guy on his bike and tell him 'it's good, we can work w/ this' OR 'it's not the right size' BEFORE charging his fees. Our guy would, for sure.
    I work for some bike racers
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Eh...I guess. I'd think that any legit/unbiased fitter would look at the guy on his bike and tell him 'it's good, we can work w/ this' OR 'it's not the right size' BEFORE charging his fees. Our guy would, for sure.
    Umm, yep!
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Eh...I guess. I'd think that any legit/unbiased fitter would look at the guy on his bike and tell him 'it's good, we can work w/ this' OR 'it's not the right size' BEFORE charging his fees. Our guy would, for sure.
    I guess for an initial ballpark eyeball fitting of a healthy individual, it's ok.

    But as in the case of the OP, he has back pain. It's gonna be hard to eyeball a bike to a person with back pain. The individual will have to be properly fitted, probably several times over the course of weeks, to get his back pain dialed out. But if his bike is completely the wrong size, then the fitter will ultimately not be able to fit him, which will result in fitter saying "i'm sorry but you'll need a new bike". Well, this is where the adjustable frame comes in. If a fitter is going to tell me that I will need a new bike, then I will want to hear what new bike dimensions I should be getting, I want to know stack, reach, headtube length, stem length... etc... that I should be getting so get rid of the back pain. I want to see comparative proof that my bike is in fact too big for me versus what the adjustable bike says. Paying $300 just to hear "get a new bike" but without the details of what dimensions to get... is a little ripoff IMO. That's why they say it's always better to get fitted BEFORE you go out to buy a bike, right.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    But as in the case of the OP, he has back pain. It's gonna be hard to eyeball a bike to a person with back pain.
    This is what OP said,
    Quote Originally Posted by skibud2 View Post
    The retailer recommended the 58cm size saying that it would be easier to adjust over the 56cm. Since then, my lower back started hurting (a lot!).
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    The individual will have to be properly fitted, probably several times over the course of weeks, to get his back pain dialed out. But if his bike is completely the wrong size, then the fitter will ultimately not be able to fit him, which will result in fitter saying "i'm sorry but you'll need a new bike". Well, this is where the adjustable frame comes in. If a fitter is going to tell me that I will need a new bike, then I will want to hear what new bike dimensions I should be getting, I want to know stack, reach, headtube length, stem length... etc... that I should be getting so get rid of the back pain. I want to see comparative proof that my bike is in fact too big for me versus what the adjustable bike says. Paying $300 just to hear "get a new bike" but without the details of what dimensions to get... is a little ripoff IMO. That's why they say it's always better to get fitted BEFORE you go out to buy a bike, right.
    I wonder if OP drove a fancy car to that bike shop and the salesman saw it...

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by skibud2 View Post
    Hi,

    A few years back, I bought a 58cm version of the following bike:

    https://www.specialized.com/us/en/ve...o-race/p/65271

    The retailer recommended the 58cm size saying that it would be easier to adjust over the 56cm. Since then, my lower back started hurting (a lot!). I tried to mitigate the pain by adjusting the reach using a 100mm/17degree stem, without success.

    My back still hurts so I went to another bike fitter today. After spending $300+ for the fitting, they said that the current frame is just too big, and they cannot adjust it to fit me. They also thought that my back pain was due to the large bike frame.

    They recommended me buying this frame as a large:

    https://www.storckworld.com/bike-fin...erfast-pro-g2/

    This is another $4k, so I don't want to buy it. However, I would love to start biking again. They said my body shape is different so I need a frame that is both tall and has a short top tube length. Otherwise I would need to buy a custom frame. They also said it would be difficult to find a frame that will fit me.

    Is this a sales scam? How can I tell if they are correct?

    Thanks,

    Mike
    Did he say specifically how it was too big for you? A larger size would either be too tall or too long. We know it's not too tall because of what you've said.

    The reach of the venge in a 58 is 401. The reach of the storck in a 56 is 400.
    The stack of the venge in a 58 is 593. The stack of the storck in a 56 is 597.

    I have no idea what sort of fit issue the fitter would be trying to accomplish by switching you from the venge to the storck. in terms of how the contact points relate to each other, the frames are very, very close to the same size.

    I would ask specifically why you need a new bike, rather than a vague "it's too big."

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by masont View Post
    I would ask specifically why you need a new bike, rather than a vague "it's too big."
    Better yet, I would go to a different shop and get a second opinion.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by masont View Post

    The reach of the venge in a 58 is 401. The reach of the storck in a 56 is 400.
    The stack of the venge in a 58 is 593. The stack of the storck in a 56 is 597.
    Hahaha. Boom!

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    I guess for an initial ballpark eyeball fitting of a healthy individual, it's ok.

    But as in the case of the OP, he has back pain. It's gonna be hard to eyeball a bike to a person with back pain. The individual will have to be properly fitted, probably several times over the course of weeks, to get his back pain dialed out. But if his bike is completely the wrong size, then the fitter will ultimately not be able to fit him, which will result in fitter saying "i'm sorry but you'll need a new bike". Well, this is where the adjustable frame comes in. If a fitter is going to tell me that I will need a new bike, then I will want to hear what new bike dimensions I should be getting, I want to know stack, reach, headtube length, stem length... etc... that I should be getting so get rid of the back pain. I want to see comparative proof that my bike is in fact too big for me versus what the adjustable bike says. Paying $300 just to hear "get a new bike" but without the details of what dimensions to get... is a little ripoff IMO. That's why they say it's always better to get fitted BEFORE you go out to buy a bike, right.
    Hi. Retul fitter here, and I've got the fit bike.

    Using the fit bike for a fit isn't going to result in any difference in the actual fit itself. We're going to set the fit bike up via stack/reach/saddle setback for whatever bike the athlete owns, then adjust from there. We're going to be looking at the same customer in the exact same position. There is nothing magical about the fit bike that results in a better fit.

    The fit bike does two things for us: First, we can fit someone on a bike we don't have in stock. Second, it makes the actual adjustments go a ton faster. I, however, find that time is more than made up for by having to then change the customer's actual bike to match the fit bike - and it also adds another step where mistakes can be made. I personally prefer to fit the customer on their actual bike and use the fit stem from Retul to dial the front end in. I, however, know fitters that very much prefer the fit bike, and that's totally fine, because in the end there's going to be zero difference in the actual fit.

    The fit bike doesn't do anything to improve the fit, and for almost every fit I do it's sitting in my fit room while I fit the customer on their actual bike.

  13. #38
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    It sounds like the consensus is that you need to figure out why your back hurts first, and then decide what to do about it.

    You seem to be assuming that because the development of back pain is correlated with your purchase of the new bike several years back, that the new bike *is* the cause of your back pain. That could be the case, but it's far from necessarily the case.

    Maybe a trip to an orthopedist or physical therapist is in order. At the minimum, you want to rule out purely medical reasons for your back pain, such as herniated disk or whatnot. And as many above have suggested, you want to know if specific exercises, stretches, etc. are indicated.

    Finally, you weren't clear about whether you owned a bike prior to the one you describe in your post. If you did have a bike and rode it without back pain, do you still have the old bike to compare it to the new one, or can you look up its specs on the web?

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bike981 View Post
    Maybe a trip to an orthopedist or physical therapist is in order. At the minimum, you want to rule out purely medical reasons for your back pain, such as herniated disk or whatnot. And as many above have suggested, you want to know if specific exercises, stretches, etc. are indicated.
    This is a very good point. But I would go see specifically a sports medicine doctor (physiatrist). Their aim is to keep people active and avoid surgery. PT did wonders for me.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by masont View Post
    Hi. Retul fitter here, and I've got the fit bike.

    Using the fit bike for a fit isn't going to result in any difference in the actual fit itself. We're going to set the fit bike up via stack/reach/saddle setback for whatever bike the athlete owns, then adjust from there. We're going to be looking at the same customer in the exact same position. There is nothing magical about the fit bike that results in a better fit.

    The fit bike does two things for us: First, we can fit someone on a bike we don't have in stock. Second, it makes the actual adjustments go a ton faster. I, however, find that time is more than made up for by having to then change the customer's actual bike to match the fit bike - and it also adds another step where mistakes can be made. I personally prefer to fit the customer on their actual bike and use the fit stem from Retul to dial the front end in. I, however, know fitters that very much prefer the fit bike, and that's totally fine, because in the end there's going to be zero difference in the actual fit.

    The fit bike doesn't do anything to improve the fit, and for almost every fit I do it's sitting in my fit room while I fit the customer on their actual bike.
    Good points! And I didn't mean to impart that a fit bike is some magical solution. If customer's bike is already in the ballpark size, yeah then you wouldn't necessarily need to put him on a fit bike, then go with his bike. But if customer is having additional back issue, to the point that you'd tell him to buy another bike, then personally I'd want to be fitted on a fit bike to compare measurements and understand why my bike was too big for me.

    From the OP's description, I got the feeling that his fitter tried to make the bike as small as possible (i.e, probably used the shortest stem angled up), and still OP was not comfortable. So fitter told OP to go buy another bike, and as you have pointed out, the proposed Storck frame in size L is very similar in size to OP's original bike sizing, which will probably solve nothing.

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