Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 163
  1. #51
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    3,148
    Quote Originally Posted by mrwirey View Post
    bikerjulio,
    It's all good. This is just one of many bikes in my garage ... I don't associate my identity with any of them so I don't take anything personal. And yes, I realize one has to have a thick skin to play on "the Interwebz."
    Especially here. ;)

    I also have a decent [indecent?] stable, and also high expectations of what I perceive that I want in each. So I get that totally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robt57/Me!
    Everything you read that I post is just '1' guy's opinion, try to sort it all out best you can. ;) I will try to add value in my posts, if I miss the mark please let me know using a little decorum.

  2. #52
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: bikerjulio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,165
    What is to like about ISP?

    No weight saving.

    Ugly mast topper.

    Harder to adjust.

    Impossible to fit in hard travel case.

    Much harder to sell.

    Idea is passe, with zero benefits really at all.
    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?

    One.

    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  3. #53
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    3,148
    Well OK, thanks for chiming back in. I do agree with harder to sell, but nothing else that applies to me I guess. Travel case is something that I don't do, especially when you ride a 61CM bike it is even harder probably. ;)

    As far as passe, I have had my Addict for years an got it used for dirt. Is anyone even still doing it production wise?

    It seems to me with carbon it will actually make the bike heavier than a normal post really. Not that this is any kind of complaint for me with the Addict LTD.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    What is to like about ISP?

    No weight saving.

    Ugly mast topper.

    Harder to adjust.

    Impossible to fit in hard travel case.

    Much harder to sell.

    Idea is passe, with zero benefits really at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robt57/Me!
    Everything you read that I post is just '1' guy's opinion, try to sort it all out best you can. ;) I will try to add value in my posts, if I miss the mark please let me know using a little decorum.

  4. #54
    mrwirey
    Reputation: mrwirey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    You either need more orange, or less.
    bikerjulio,
    Ti-ISP's steel brother got the preponderance of orange. I go through phases. Please excuse the Shimano.

    Considering Titanium Road Bike Build-cysco-steel.jpg

    Very respectfully, Tim
    "Anything can be a torch if you set it on fire"

  5. #55
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    To quote myself: "But concentrate on getting the right fit and design because bikes aren't a certain way just because of what they are made of."

    Ti bikes aren't good for long rides because they are made of Ti and Carbon bikes aren't snappy and responsive just because they are carbon. It just so happens that a lot of ti bikes are comfortable and a lot of carbon bikes are responsive but you really need to get it out of your head that a certain material rides a certain way and don't expect that just because a bike is a certain material it'll ride a certain way. Bikes ride the way they do not because of what they are made of but because of how they are designed.
    Don't know why you say how a bike rides only depends on design and not material. Design and material go hand in hand. Usually when people design something, eg, a car or building, part of the design process is to think about what material to use at some point. Design doesn't just exist mutually exclusive from material.

  6. #56
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Cni2i's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,756
    Quote Originally Posted by tvad View Post
    I disagree with that assessment. Tube selection has a great deal to do with how a bike rides; shape, thickness, and carbon lay-up all make a difference. Are the tubes selected for stiffness, flexibility, damping (of road buzz)?

    Tube selection and its relation to ride quality applies equally to Ti, carbon and steel.
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Don't know why you say how a bike rides only depends on design and not material. Design and material go hand in hand. Usually when people design something, eg, a car or building, part of the design process is to think about what material to use at some point. Design doesn't just exist mutually exclusive from material.
    That's why I was a little surprised by JS response. I realize the material of the bike is obviously not the only factor influencing its overall ride and feel characteristics, but bikes are "a certain way" b/c of what they are made of (their DNA)...yeah?
    EyeGuy

  7. #57
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: theregoesmybus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    25
    I'm new to Ti bikes, and this is my first Moots that I just finished building up:

    - 2015 Moots Vamoots CR (56)
    - Campagnolo Super Record RS group
    - Campagnolo Bora Ultra 50 wheels
    - FSA K-Force seatpost, stem, bars
    - Chris King headset (mixed colors)
    - Specialized Power S-Works saddle
    - Look Keo 2 carbon pedals

    Considering Titanium Road Bike Build-2016_0121_fb0a7200a.jpg
    Last edited by theregoesmybus; 02-09-2016 at 01:34 PM.

  8. #58
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Cni2i's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,756
    Quote Originally Posted by theregoesmybus View Post
    I'm new to Ti bikes, and this is my first Moots that I just finished building up:


    [/COLOR]Attachment 311827

    Attachment 311828
    Very nice build. Final weight as pictured? Did you come from a carbon road bike? If so, would love to hear your comparisons between the two. Congrats!
    EyeGuy

  9. #59
    mrwirey
    Reputation: mrwirey's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    194
    theregoesmybus,

    I believe you nailed it.

    I used the Moots CR geometry on my custom Cysco Cycles Ti build; I 'pirated' the details directly from the Moots website.

    Beyond the geometry our bikes share, I wanted to specify a few small details for my build, which drove me to a custom rather than standard build.

    I wanted to ensure sufficient frame clearance for 25mm tires when mounted on wider (H Plus Son Archetype) rims. Additionally, I specified hourglass shaped seatstays (personal preference) and explained to the builder (Richie Moore at the time) I valued responsiveness over compliance and weight; I can't appreciate a flexy bike. This drove him to recommend specific tubing choices and dimensions as well as an oversize headtube and a tapered front fork. I also wanted external cable routing and a BSA bottom bracket. I gave him literary license with regard to the finish hence the 'blasted' frame with shiny logos. The one thing I was adamant about was I wanted a real honest to God headbadge (his normal routine was to use a logo decal). He commissioned a run of headbadges and mine was the first frame to get the official (screwed on) Cysco Headbadge. If not for those details (and the desire to throw a very small builder my business) I'd be riding pretty much your bike right now (minus the 'very cool and desirable' Boras).

    From the tip of my saddle to the center of my stem/bar intersection is 22.5" and the top of my saddle is 30.5" from the center of my bottom bracket (measured along the seat tube/seat post). I'd bet I could fit on your bike with only a slight saddle adjustment ... oh, and I use Keo pedals as well.

    Very respectfully, Tim

    Considering Titanium Road Bike Build-cysco-logo.jpg
    Last edited by mrwirey; 01-21-2016 at 07:50 AM.

  10. #60
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: bikerjulio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,165
    That's what I'm talking about - classy - just Ti - no garish paint job - and no ISP
    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?

    One.

    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  11. #61
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: theregoesmybus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Cni2i View Post
    Very nice build. Final weight as pictured? Did you come from a carbon road bike? If so, would love to hear your comparisons between the two. Congrats!
    Thanks! It came in at 16.1 lbs.
    I'll get back to you on comparisons, as it's still early for me.

  12. #62
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,508
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Don't know why you say how a bike rides only depends on design and not material. Design and material go hand in hand. Usually when people design something, eg, a car or building, part of the design process is to think about what material to use at some point. Design doesn't just exist mutually exclusive from material.
    Like you said, material selection is part of design. Which makes it confusing why on one hand you know material selection is part of design yet on the other you don't understand why I haven't specifically separated the two.

  13. #63
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,508
    Quote Originally Posted by Cni2i View Post
    That's why I was a little surprised by JS response. I realize the material of the bike is obviously not the only factor influencing its overall ride and feel characteristics, but bikes are "a certain way" b/c of what they are made of (their DNA)...yeah?
    I give up. Sure, yeah. All Ti bikes ride the same because they are Ti.

  14. #64
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,508
    Quote Originally Posted by tvad View Post
    I disagree with that assessment. Tube selection has a great deal to do with how a bike rides; shape, thickness, and carbon lay-up all make a difference. Are the tubes selected for stiffness, flexibility, damping (of road buzz)?

    Tube selection and its relation to ride quality applies equally to Ti, carbon and steel.
    Right.

    Between that response (crom CnI2I) and ACL's I guess I shouldn't have assumed people would realize that design means more than just measurements.

  15. #65
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Like you said, material selection is part of design. Which makes it confusing why on one hand you know material selection is part of design yet on the other you don't understand why I haven't specifically separated the two.
    Maybe I just didn't understand what you were saying completely. Anyway point is material and design go hand in hand. The real issue is no one (not even the builder) really knows QUALITATIVELY how much of a percentage of how a bike ride depends on material, and how much depends of design. Nobody knows. However, there are GENERAL properties of materials that we know, and we also know how such properties tend to lend itself in a certain design style, and we can certainly make a good initial educated guess. Ti tend to lend itself to designing a soft riding bike, that's why when people think of endurance bike, they ask about using ti, which is perfectly the right path. They wouldn't ask about using aluminum as a starting material because it takes more design thought and hours to make an aluminum bike ride "soft" while with ti the design much easier and naturally. Another example is track bikes. No one would design a track bike around ti material. They design around carbon fiber and steel.

    A person asking about using ti for an endurance frame is heading in the right path. A person asking about using ti in a track frame is heading in the difficult path. But just because ti can be used in both cases, doesn't mean one should use ti in both cases.

    And then there is also the issue of cost. Ti involves more cost to it, from raw material to the skill required. So cost is a factor, then this too will play into the design process.

  16. #66
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,508
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Maybe I just didn't understand what you were saying completely.
    I suppose I could have been more clear.

    My only point really was that it's not a good idea to approach bike buying like this: "I want a smooth bike so I'll get any titanium bike because titanium is smooth."

    Choosing Ti might increase the odds of getting a smooth bike but it doesn't insure it. Ti could, and had been, made super stiff and to ride like a jackhammer. Just like there's plenty of carbon bikes with cooked pasta level stiffness despite the material being known the it's ability to produce a super stiff bike.
    One needs to choose the whole package not just material.

  17. #67
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,838
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    Sorry, but I have to say that ISP, like multi material frames, is not only passe, but a really stupid idea, that really has no advantages whatsoever, but plenty of drawbacks.
    I'm not arguing with you on ISP, but ok this is the second time in this thread you emphatically said multi-material, specifically carbon-ti (I'm not talking carbon-aluminum of old), is bad. Yet there are still top builders such as Holland cycles and Firely making them in their premier frames. Pretty sure there are other premier builders doing it too that I'm not aware of. Reviews on these carbon-ti frames have been nothing but positives. So your statement doesn't jive with top builders, doesn't jive with reviews.

    The fact of the matter is, multi-material, particularly carbon-ti, is difficult to work with, it takes real skill to bond carbon-ti correctly, and the cost of raw material and skill are higher. You can't easily train Chinese villagers under low salary to work with carbon-ti eh. Chinese would be doing it if it was easy and cheap. Get it wrong, and you've just spent a lot of money making a junk frame. It is a lot easier to work with a pure ti frame or a pure carbon frame. Carbon-ti takes real skill, and with real skill comes the associated higher cost.

    But from a performance point of view, it's the best of both world. Even from a structural point, the carbon-ti bonding is stronger than either material alone. From an endurance bike point of view, carbon-ti is one of the best, if not the best, mix of material to use.

    Aesthetically, most carbon-ti frames are some of the best piece of work, from welding to painting. That's because when builders decide to make a carbon-ti frame, they tend to go all out with their effort. It's not something you want to put a halfassed effort it making, that's why most of them look great. But aesthetic is always in the eyes of the beholder. Personally, I find a bike such as Moots with pure gun metal ti color to be quite boring to my eyes, not evoking much emotion, other than the fact that I know it's a ti frame that costs a lot because it's a Moot. But some people get a hardon when the see unpainted gun metal ti. Different stroke.

    Just about the only "bad" thing about making a carbon-ti frame is the higher cost. But like anywhere else in this world, skill requires cost. If you want to pick on cost, then fine, but it doesn't appear from your tone that cost was an issue you were trying to raise. It just appeared to me that you were just bashing carbon-ti like it's carbon-aluminum of old, lumping them all together under the umbrella of multi-material frames. Might as well say a Chinese carbon knockoff frame is the same as the real frame thing since they're both made from the same material carbon fiber and have mostly the same shape.
    Last edited by aclinjury; 01-21-2016 at 07:57 AM.

  18. #68
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,508
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post

    But from a performance point of view, it's the best of both world.
    I'm not going to name drop but I have it on good authority that, with this particular builder anyway, the only purpose of carbon in their ti/carbon frame is weight reduction in response to customer demand and their all Ti version of the same frame performs identical.

  19. #69
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I'm not going to name drop but I have it on good authority that, with this particular builder anyway, the only purpose of carbon in their ti/carbon frame is weight reduction in response to customer demand and their all Ti version of the same frame performs identical.
    I'm not going to argue with your builder.

    But here's just one quote of what Holland cycles says about their Exogrid and how carbon-ti makes their Exogrid unique

    The Ti/C ExoGrid® structure has unique vibration damping qualities due to the dissimilar natural frequencies of the carbon and titanium. When these elements are molded together, some of these frequencies cancel each other out, a phenomenon called constrained layer damping. When ExoGrid® is used in substantial bike frame elements such as the top tube, seat tube and down tube, the built frame delivers improved road feel and exceptional ride quality that are unobtainable from a titanium or carbon fiber frame on their own.
    Holland Cycles ? Holland ExoGrid® Bicycle

    And interestingly, they didn't mention anything about weight as one of the reason.

    Serotta used to say the similar qualities about their carbon-ti Ottrott model (which I bought a year before the company went out of business).

    Here's one quote of the review of the Firefly carbon-ti by Peloton magazine

    On the road the Firefly Ti-Carbon provided an interesting combination. The titanium dampened the road noise in a way that is impossible to do with carbon alone. The ENVE 2.0 fork is a great compliment to the Ti-Carbon frame with its progressive steer matched with the oversized titanium head tube. It was particularly stiff and made for a great driving experience down winding descents. The enlarged tubing in the chain stays definitely stiffened up the power transfer from the cranks but did not quite meet the level of most full carbon rear triangles. This was most noticeable in out of the saddle sprints during initial acceleration.
    At speed on the flats and descents the Ti-Carbon got better the faster we rode. Some cars begin to drive better at higher speed; the Firefly lit up over 30mph. The titanium lugs were stand out as they soaked up all the road chatter and eased the pain of potholes on roads long ago forgotten by local government.
    Also interestingly, no where in the review did Peloton magazine emphasize about the weight difference between carbon and ti.

    If the builder you talked to said the ONLY reason he used carbon is for weight reduction, then he is essentially saying that the ONLY difference in properties between carbon and ti is simply their empirical weight. Now I've taken some higher level chemistry classes in my college days, and I think I know that carbon and ti are more than just a weight difference, this I can emphatically say. Metals and organic materials (carbon) certainly definitely have distinct and unique characteristics.
    Last edited by aclinjury; 01-21-2016 at 08:20 AM.

  20. #70
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: bikerjulio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,165
    I didn't say bad, I said passe. An idea whose time has come and gone.

    It's just my opinion that mixed material frames were always a bit of a gimmick from the last decade, and I prefer a frame to be one material.

    When one comes on the internet as OP did, looking for opinions, one is liable to get them.
    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?

    One.

    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  21. #71
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,838
    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    I didn't say bad, I said passe. An idea whose time has come and gone.

    It's just my opinion that mixed material frames were always a bit of a gimmick from the last decade, and I prefer a frame to be one material.

    When one comes on the internet as OP did, looking for opinions, one is liable to get them.
    ah gotcha. But I think that time was the early era of carbon-aluminum, when builders (not chemists themselves) didn't fully understand galvanic corrosion between carbon and metals, and furthermore the epoxy used back then has also improved. Today bonding and science has improved.

    I think the main reason multi-material has gone away much is because of
    1) they are expensive and difficult to get it right
    2) cheap and light Chinese made carbon cookie cutter frames

    Today's multi-material frames aren't gimmicks, passe maybe (but mainly due to economical and financial reason), but certainly not gimmick in the way they work.

  22. #72
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,508
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    I'm not going to argue with your builder.

    But here's just one quote of what Holland cycles says about their Exogrid and how carbon-ti makes their Exogrid unique


    Holland Cycles ? Holland ExoGrid® Bicycle

    And interestingly, they didn't mention anything about weight as one of the reason.

    Serotta used to say the similar qualities about their carbon-ti Ottrott model (which I bought a year before the company went out of business).

    Here's one quote of the review of the Firefly carbon-ti by Peloton magazine



    Also interestingly, no where in the review did Peloton magazine emphasize about the weight difference between carbon and ti.

    If the builder you talked to said the ONLY reason he used carbon is for weight reduction, then he is essentially saying that the ONLY difference in properties between carbon and ti is simply their empirical weight. Now I've taken some higher level chemistry classes in my college days, and I think I know that carbon and ti are more than just a weight difference, this I can emphatically say. Metals and organic materials (carbon) certainly definitely have distinct and unique characteristics.
    You're way over thinking it.

    If you ride two bikes one after the other they either perform the same or they don't.

    This builder/bike company owner that I happen to know says the performance is identical. that's it. You don't need to be a material scientist to tell how a bike feels.

    If Peloton had done a compare with an all ti version of the same bike and saw differences you might have just made some sort of point by posting their review. But attributing ride qualities to a mix of materials is pure guess work on their part when they haven't compared it an all ti version of the same thing.

  23. #73
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    4,838
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    You're way over thinking it.

    If you ride two bikes one after the other they either perform the same or they don't.

    This builder/bike company owner that I happen to know says the performance is identical. that's it. You don't need to be a material scientist to tell how a bike feels.

    If Peloton had done a compare with an all ti version of the same bike and saw differences you might have just made some sort of point by posting their review. But attributing ride qualities to a mix of materials is pure guess work on their part when they haven't compared it an all ti version of the same thing.
    Sorry if I'm overthinking on an issue that your builder seems to over simplying. I guess if he made the same frame out of wood, bamboo, steel, plywood, paper, they too would all have identical performance. I think I'm done making my point regarding this.

    And if I may, I would like the name of the builder thru private message. This is something I would be interested in knowing for future reference.

  24. #74
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    7,508
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Sorry if I'm overthinking on an issue that your builder seems to over simplying. I guess if he made the same frame out of wood, bamboo, steel, plywood, paper, they too would all have identical performance. I think I'm done making my point regarding this.

    And if I may, I would like the name of the builder thru private message. This is something I would be interested in knowing for future reference.
    He is not "my builder" but "a" builder/bike company owner that I happen to know by coincidence for reasons other than my interest in bikes. Again I'm not going mention names but it's really hilarious that you seem to think you know more than this guy.

    No, I'm will not PM you. It's probably best that you go on thinking you know best and either the builder I mentioned doesn't know what anything or that I'm just making this up. Take your pick. I have no interest in convincing you of anything.

  25. #75
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    3,148
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Today's multi-material frames aren't gimmicks, passe maybe (but mainly due to economical and financial reason), but certainly not gimmick in the way they work.

    I always prefer a one material build myself, for the frame. Even back in 2000 I choose the previous year Fuji Team Issue Scandium to get all welds and no bonded and bolted on seat stay unit.

    Except I do have a Canondale Six13 of early ilk with 3 carbon keyed/inserted main tubes. Which is basically an upper end CAAD# dejour which the aforementioned 'economical and financial' factors made it's center ALuminum tube/carbon keyed insertion in the 3 main frame tubes extinct. It certainly has a lot more engineering than the straight round carbon tubes glued into main frame portions. Although I never heard of a Serotta having the round tubes pullout form a glue failure. And know of a few folks that still love those original Serottas of that design, Odrotts??

    It is a nice riding bike that feels like no other ALuminum bike I have ridden. I confess that I like the made in USA factor.

    Oh, I had a Q-Carbon Klein for a while which also was ALuminum with a bonded in carbon seat stay cluster which IMO had a refined ride [as it were].
    Quote Originally Posted by Robt57/Me!
    Everything you read that I post is just '1' guy's opinion, try to sort it all out best you can. ;) I will try to add value in my posts, if I miss the mark please let me know using a little decorum.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Titanium Road bike question
    By Buster65 in forum Bikes, Frames and Forks
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 12-31-2015, 09:13 AM
  2. Best titanium road bike for under $4000.
    By Motomadman in forum Motobecane - Mercier
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-09-2014, 03:33 PM
  3. Best titanium road bike for under $4000.
    By Motomadman in forum Hot Deals
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-04-2014, 08:31 AM
  4. What wheels do you have on your titanium road bike?
    By sdlesko in forum Wheels and Tires
    Replies: 190
    Last Post: 08-31-2014, 12:12 AM
  5. My Very First Road Bike- Steel or Titanium
    By hrdkorsocerplyr in forum Bikes, Frames and Forks
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 03-19-2013, 11:58 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •