Fezzari CR2 v Motobecane Le Champ Carbon

[DDG]

Hi all: I've been riding a long time and a Jamis Eclipse since 2001. Very sweet steel bike: 853 Reynolds, Full Ultegra 9 spd, Mavic Ksyrium SSC wheels and brakes, Carbon fork. Sadly my wife tried to park our Pilot in an airport garage, forgot the bike was on top and cracked the frame in 3 places. All other components seem fine. If not for that, I wouldn't want to replace it. I'm 60 years old, in very good shape, live in NYC and often ride hills in Vt. I was all set to buy a Fezzari CR2, Ultegra 10 spd and brakes, swap out my saddle and wheelset, when I saw the2010 Moto Le Chamnp CF Rival on BikesDirect for $300 less, but with all SRAM Rival components.

Suggestions please, particularly from anyone regarding experience with Fezzari and/or Motobecane Carbon (other than their Immortal) frames; comments on SRAM Rival v Ultegra 10spd would also be very helpful. I should add that guys at Fezzari are very responsive and helpful. It's a shame you can't speak to anyone at BikesDirect. Unfortunately the Motobecane is not available until October 15th , but I'd wait it out if it was really worth it.

Thanks in advance. DDG

[jpelaston]

Honestly, I would just try to find a frame for all the components you have. I have had a couple Motobecane MTB's come into my shop for work/repair and have not been at all impressed with the welds or quality of build. The one bike in particular had an XT rear derailleur and the owner was under the impression it was a full XT bike. unfortunately that was not the case. Also the saddle, stem, and other cockpit components were odd named knock- offs. HTH

[DDG]

Thanks for the post. Have you seen any Motobecane carbon frames? The bike I'm looking at has an all SRAM Rival drivetrain, Rtichey saddle, seatpost, stem and bars. The components seem quite good - certainly comparable to my Jamis Ultegra. I can't evaluate the carbon frame. Problem with Fezzari is that I have no idea who makes their components. Insight?

[jpelaston]

I've not seen the Motobecane Carbon frame. I really don't have any insight into them. I seem to recall a huge thread on RBR a year or so ago about a broken motobecane carbon that the guy was having a lot of problems with them when he tried to get it warrantied. I am sure you could be happy on a motobecane. I had even considered their Ti MTB a couple different times. My biggest worry is if I buy one and it fails in a year that I would stuck with a pile of components and not money to drop on a new frame.

I can tell you that I purchased a Scattante carbon bike last year and compared side to side with a comparable bike from at least two other manufacturers there is a noticeable difference in ride and weight.

I don't know about Fezzari at all.

[My Own Private Idaho]

Thanks for the post. Have you seen any Motobecane carbon frames? The bike I'm looking at has an all SRAM Rival drivetrain, Rtichey saddle, seatpost, stem and bars. The components seem quite good - certainly comparable to my Jamis Ultegra. I can't evaluate the carbon frame. Problem with Fezzari is that I have no idea who makes their components. Insight?

This is obscure, but stay with me. My riding buddy's brother-in-law owns Fezzari. I've discussed the company with my buddy. Fezzari buys frames in Taiwan and China, much as BD does. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to guess that they might come from the same factory. Mr. Fezzari then assembles the bikes in a warehouse in Orem, Utah, and ships them out. Or maybe it was Murry, Utah. Doesn't matter.

That being said, I hate BD with a passion, and personally I can't recommend them and I don't encourage anyone to buy their bikes. I'm sure the bikes are fine, I just don't like the company.

[DDG]

The interesting thing about all of this is I really wish Jamis didn't want so much for a replacement frame, because I'd do that in a heartbeat. I can't find any 51 cm Jamis steel frames second-hand either.

Based upon my research, including old threads from RBR, it seems most Moto frames are mfd in Taiwan, while some other well-known sellers - Kestrel, Cologno to name 2 - are mfd in mainland China.

If I rightly or wrongly assume workmanship on the CR2 and Moto frames is the same, both are 12k weave, then it comes down to components: the Fezzari - which gets a great RBR review by the way - utilizes many of its own generic components, except for the Ultegra drivetrain and poorly rated Simano RS-10 wheels, while the Motobecane uses SRAM Rival drivetrain and brakes (and Ritchey cockpit components) with which I have no experience. Any suggestions/comments about the SRAM v. Ultegra or Ritchey v. generic. All responses greatly appreciated. DDG

[bikesdirect]

The interesting thing about all of this is I really wish Jamis didn't want so much for a replacement frame, because I'd do that in a heartbeat. I can't find any 51 cm Jamis steel frames second-hand either.

Based upon my research, including old threads from RBR, it seems most Moto frames are mfd in Taiwan, while some other well-known sellers - Kestrel, Cologno to name 2 - are mfd in mainland China.

If I rightly or wrongly assume workmanship on the CR2 and Moto frames is the same, both are 12k weave, then it comes down to components: the Fezzari - which gets a great RBR review by the way - utilizes many of its own generic components, except for the Ultegra drivetrain and poorly rated Simano RS-10 wheels, while the Motobecane uses SRAM Rival drivetrain and brakes (and Ritchey cockpit components) with which I have no experience. Any suggestions/comments about the SRAM v. Ultegra or Ritchey v. generic. All responses greatly appreciated. DDG

You are Correct; and the new le Champion CF series is made in Taiwan as are the Immortal and Century CF bikes.

First runs are selling out; customer response has been great

Only one magazine reveiw on this frame so far
http://www.bicycling.com/gear/detail...2504-0,00.html
by Bicycling Magazine -- there will be others later -- however most Moto reveiws these days are on Ti bikes [but, Immortal Force is this months Road Bike Action]

If you like Rival - I think this bike is a great deal
but we will have a super deal on a Kestrel full Rival bike soon also

BTW - Jamis 853 frame is Maxway: which is a great builder [we also use them]

[DDG]

Re: BikesDirect response. It's nice to know that you're lurking here and I can get your attention, but it would be so much easier if I could just call. Since you're here, though, how about your take on (1) the question I posed about SRAM Rival/Ritchey v. Ultegra/generic components; and (2) the quality of the CR2 frame v. the Motobecane.

[bikesdirect]

Re: BikesDirect response. It's nice to know that you're lurking here and I can get your attention, but it would be so much easier if I could just call. Since you're here, though, how about your take on (1) the question I posed about SRAM Rival/Ritchey v. Ultegra/generic components; and (2) the quality of the CR2 frame v. the Motobecane.

bikesdirect is designed for lowest cost for customers -- thus we respond by e-mail saving about 7% over running phone lines - plus customers get answers in writting

Sram Rival vs Ultegra depends on Old 6600 Ultegra or New 6700 Ultegra
At this time we are deeply discounting older 6600 Ultegra - which is good stuff but not current model.

As for cockpit & wheel specs; I like most buyers prefer brand name items over non-brand name stuff and for good reason.

I would say a buyer should pick Sram vs Shimano setep based on the shifting system the buyer prefers - some like Sram double tap - some prefer Shimano STI - quality and reliability of both groups is great.

I do not know the CR2 frame - but I bet it is fine; highly likely made by ADK, Martec, or Topkey -- you can also see bikes with names like Specialized, Motobecane, Fuji, Kestrel, Felt, etc. etc, etc from these makers.

There are some 'cheap' CF frames out there - but I know ours are not in that group and I bet the CR2 is not either.


Of course, if one likes Ultegra - I think the 2010 Immortal Force with New Ultegra 6700 is the best deal:
http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/...alforce_10.htm
Road Bike Action also just reveiwed this bike and thought it was a great deal even at list.

Lots of great options at $1200 to $2000 in CF road bikes - so that is good for buyers

[Steve-a-Reno]

.. customers get answers in writting

I like that.

[DDG]

Mike - BikesDirect-C'mon back: Looked at the Immortal Force link. Nice bike, but I can't find Cane Creek SCR6 aluminum brake calipers anywhere, including their website. Is that a misprint or are they SCR5's. 2nd Question: is the Le Champion CF frame different from the Immortal Force frame; if yes, how so? Are they both 12k monocoque weaves or something different? Last question: Is there some way to see a picture of the Immortal in white?

[bikesdirect]

Mike - BikesDirect-C'mon back: Looked at the Immortal Force link. Nice bike, but I can't find Cane Creek SCR6 aluminum brake calipers anywhere, including their website. Is that a misprint or are they SCR5's. 2nd Question: is the Le Champion CF frame different from the Immortal Force frame; if yes, how so? Are they both 12k monocoque weaves or something different? Last question: Is there some way to see a picture of the Immortal in white?

Cane Creek SCR6 replaces the SCR5 - I do not know why they have not updated their site

le Champion CF is a bit more relaxed than Immortal with a bit taller HT - Immortal is a race bike - le Champion CF is a fast group ride type road racer

Immortal in White is very nice
it has been posted before by owners - many customized with Red Trim

here are a few I found with google

[DDG]

Thanks, Mike. I take it that Immortal is also a 12k monocoque weave, you didn't say.

BTW, I shot BD an email with more complete measurement information about myself for purposes of sizing, which I'd appreciate either you or your sizing mavens respond to.

For all: Regarding the SRAM Rival components on the Le Champion, since I have no experience with them - and believe the only stupid question is the one you don't ask - when you say they are "double tap" does that mean it takes 2 taps on the shifters to move between each gear, high and low?

[asad137]

when you say they are "double tap" does that mean it takes 2 taps on the shifters to move between each gear, high and low?

DoubleTap is SRAM's shifting method that allows you to upshift and downshift with the same lever (the brake lever is reserved for braking and doesn't swing to the side).

With the DoubleTap system, a short sideways tap on the shift lever moves the chain to a smaller gear, while pushing the lever past that first tap to the next click position moves you to a larger gear. On the rear derailleur, you can keep pushing and shift multiple gears at once (I think up to three gears).

If you google it you can find out more info on DoubleTap, including some sweet videos showing the mechanism and also its implementation on a bike.

I personally fell in love with DoubleTap the first time I rode a bike with one, but I also wasn't used to a different system because I had never had a bike with integrated brake/shift levers. I like the mechanical feel of the DoubleTap system better than Shimano STI, and being able to rattle off quick successive upshifts is very satisfying.

Try a SRAM bike out if you get a chance.

Asad

[DDG]

Thanks much, Asad, that was very helpful.

[frdfandc]

Sram is capable of shifting up to 5 gears on the rear. BUT, the only way to make that happen is if you have 2 foot long fingers. lol It takes a huge sweep of the shift lever to get 5. I have been able to get 4 gears on one shift a few times, but its very difficult, even with larger hands (I can almost palm a regulation basketball without difficulty)

Being a bike mechanic, I've had the pleasure of riding both Shimano (which is on my current bike) to riding SRAM Rival and Red (on customers, 1 floor bike, and a fellow coworkers bike)

I do prefer the more mechanical nature of SRAM over the finicky, but smoother Shimano. It might also be in part that I have SRAM on my MTB.

But both groups are very nice. Nothing really bad to say about either. Just a personal preference.

Now, I have 3 customers and a co-worker with Moto's, and they just absolutely love them. 2 customers have the carbon bikes - I think one is the Immortal, and the other is the LeChampion. The 3rd is a TT bike. My co-worker has a Ti bike.

It pretty much comes down to what you are exactly looking for. Personally I would take a Moto over the Fezzari just for the better component selection. Frames as mentioned before are probably made in the same factory.

[DDG]

frdfandc: Thanks very much for your reply. It's very helpful to hear from a user with personal experience. If I can ever return the favor, I'll be happy to do so.

It seems to me that the Moto IF is the best and most logical choice for me, given the components, my very positive experience w/ Ultegra, and the fact that I won't have to ask them to remove any components to get equivalent pricing as I would w/ Fezzari.

My real problem is sizing: At only ~ 5'7" in bare feet (slightly taller w/ bikes shoes & Look bracket), standover ht of 30.5" and arm length of about 24 1/2, I'm really between the 50 and 53that they offer. My old Jamis was a 51 and my current inclination is the 53, since it might help with keeping my neck more upright and the numbness I tend to develop in my left hand. With either bike, I would likely replace the 90 mm stem with a Ritchey 60 or 70 / 30 degree anlgle, to provide flexibility in bringing the bars in and up a bit.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. DDG

[FatTireFred]

I like that.

which means the net cast is much wider, as opposed to a single-hook line

[terbennett]

I haven't seen the Le Champion Motobecane up close but I have seen the Immortal Force and ridden it as well. Overall, I was impressed with the bike. The Fezzazi has risen my curiosity, but I know nothing about them other than what others have said on this posting but if the Le Champion Carbon is of the same quality as the Immortal Force, you won't be disappointed. The ride on the Immortal Force is nice even if it's not razor sharp handling like the Felt F1 Sprint, Specialized S-Works or Trek 6-Series, but more like a Trek Madone 4.7- which isn't a bad thing.

[DDG]

Thanks for your insight, terbennett. Regarding the IF's not riding "razor sharp," I wonder how to tanslate that comment for my purposes. I don't race, but do like speed and ride hills even on my short workouts, generally 12-15 miles. Longer rides, generally 25-30 mi, on weekends and on mountains in summer. I never worried that my Jamis couldn't be maneuvered quickly when necessary or would falter if I hit an unexpected bump. What I want is a responsive, solid bike with good quality components that will soak up road shock and put a smile on my face on the downhills. Does the IF fit that bill in your experience?

[terbennett]

Thanks for your insight, terbennett. Regarding the IF's not riding "razor sharp," I wonder how to tanslate that comment for my purposes. I don't race, but do like speed and ride hills even on my short workouts, generally 12-15 miles. Longer rides, generally 25-30 mi, on weekends and on mountains in summer. I never worried that my Jamis couldn't be maneuvered quickly when necessary or would falter if I hit an unexpected bump. What I want is a responsive, solid bike with good quality components that will soak up road shock and put a smile on my face on the downhills. Does the IF fit that bill in your experience?

Definitely. I kinda gave the IF a conservative opinion. It actually rides more like the Madone 5.2 to me but I knew that the Trek- camp would have a field day with my comment and with reason. They bought into the "OCLV carbon is the best" school of thought.If I paid $1,000+ more for a rig and it rides like the lower costing one, I would be trying to justify my purchase as well. Not only that, The Madone 5.2 is Ultegra-equipped while the IF is Dura Ace-equipped. Sure Ultegra is a great grouppo but while it feels similar when new, 5-6 years of use and you will see why Dura Ace costs more. It is definitely superior and a tune up will make it shift like it did when it was new. That makes the IF an even better value. The handling is great on the IF and I think you would be happy with it. It's not "razor sharp" like my Felt F1 Sprint but the ride is also a lot smoother than my F1 Sprint as well. I personally ride Felt bicycles but after riding my buddies IF, I may add one to my collection. It has a great feel and rides like a higher end carbon frame should.

[orangeclymer]

I've enjoyed this thread with interest due to my wait (Nov) on a Moto Le champ CF that will have the new Ult 6700 group which shall be an upgrade from my current 105 setup. I too look forward to more reviews and perhaps feedback from those that take delivery sooner.

[DDG]

Cyclymer: Did you ever get the Le Champ and if so, how do you feel about the bike having ridden it a while; what's your impression of the 6700 gruppo? DDG

[riderRuss]

Hi all: I've been riding a long time and a Jamis Eclipse since 2001. Very sweet steel bike: 853 Reynolds, Full Ultegra 9 spd, Mavic Ksyrium SSC wheels and brakes, Carbon fork. Sadly my wife tried to park our Pilot in an airport garage, forgot the bike was on top and cracked the frame in 3 places. All other components seem fine. If not for that, I wouldn't want to replace it. I'm 60 years old, in very good shape, live in NYC and often ride hills in Vt. I was all set to buy a Fezzari CR2, Ultegra 10 spd and brakes, swap out my saddle and wheelset, when I saw the2010 Moto Le Chamnp CF Rival on BikesDirect for $300 less, but with all SRAM Rival components.

Suggestions please, particularly from anyone regarding experience with Fezzari and/or Motobecane Carbon (other than their Immortal) frames; comments on SRAM Rival v Ultegra 10spd would also be very helpful. I should add that guys at Fezzari are very responsive and helpful. It's a shame you can't speak to anyone at BikesDirect. Unfortunately the Motobecane is not available until October 15th , but I'd wait it out if it was really worth it.

Thanks in advance. DDG

For disclosure purposes: I ride a CR2, and I got it on a trade for some work I did with Fezzari. I am now part of their marketing team. (I think that meets the forum rules guidelines :-)

Before I went with the carbon CR2 I went to some bike stores to see what I could get and did my own homework on bikes before deciding to go with it. Yes I had the possibility of a trade, but that didn't mean I was going to do it, so I looked around. It was extremely difficult to match what I was going to get from Fezzari.

My other bits of two cent speak with Fezzari ...
- Lifetime warranty on the frame
- 30-day unconditional money-back guarantee.
- 23-point personal setup to customize the bike for you.

[terbennett]

To the contrary to what the first answer said, my one of my buddies works at a bike shop and bought a Motobecane cross bike to thrash around on. He works at a Trek shop and most of his steeds are Treks. However, he was really disappointed when he bought his Motobecane. How could something that looked and rode so good be so inexpensive? This bike was the opposite of what he thought he was getting. It was actually a very nice bike. He was impressed with it. The guy told me how the welds were actually not great looking but they looked like the welds found on many higher priced aluminum bikes In fact, he was impressed enough that he later bought an Immortal Force. Now he is still a big Trek fan (he claims the fit the best overall), but his Motobecanes get the same treatment as his Treks. Fezzazi? I don't know anything about them but they can't be bad considering what they are selling for.
BTW, about the difference between Ultegra and Rival, there's no comparison. Rival is actually more on par with 105 eventhough SRAMs's target intially was Ultegra. Force is equal to Ultegra. Force was initially marketed to compete with Dura Ace but it failed miserably. Red is SRAM's Dura Ace equivalent.