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  1. #26
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    I don't post anonymously. I think your design is pretentious and vain. You remind me of a guy in college who'd carry esoteric books around that he never read just to try to make an impression. Were I the builder I'd advise you to take your business elsewhere. The artisan deserves respect. Maybe they don't want nonsense showing on their work. If this truly is a "great frame builder" you should accept their terms. If they'd put that blather on the top tube, just accept it and move on. Your posts encourage rants...over and out! I feel better already.
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  2. #27
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    the joke seems forced...what is 'unnecessarily gaudy' about the bike?

    you realize 'gaudy' typically refers to something garish and in poor taste.
    the 45th POTUS is inept, corrupt, and a pathological liar. and those may be his better qualities...

  3. #28
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    Why would a frame builder insist that his name be on the downtube? That would mean the buyer is paying to advertise his brand, in a way? Yet, you hear of frame builders in Italy who will build a frame and put the name that is not theirs on the bike. Go figure.

    OP, I have a suggest for you. Buy the frame in the raw, then pay another $500 for a pro paint shop to paint it for you, put whatever you want on it. Your builder most likely charges close to the equivalent price for the paint job anyway. Problem solved.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    The theme I see is that folks can post nasty things when they do it anonymously, that's all.
    I didn't see either your name or the manufacturer's name. I did say you "sound" like an entitled whiner. I know it's not quite calling you an entitled whiner explicitly but if the cap fits, as they say. Again, I just don't get why you felt the need to get opinions from a bunch of anonymous people and then get insulted at the less than tempered replies. Especially when you could probably conclude from the tone of this forum that branding is pretty important to a lot of people. Good luck, I hope you get what you want but if it's sympathy I think you are looking in the wrong place. Here's a proverb for you.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Framebuilder won't put prominent text that's not their logo on downtube - opinions?-advice.jpg  

  5. #30
    'brifter' is a lame word.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Why would a frame builder insist that his name be on the downtube? That would mean the buyer is paying to advertise his brand, in a way? Yet, you hear of frame builders in Italy who will build a frame and put the name that is not theirs on the bike. Go figure.

    OP, I have a suggest for you. Buy the frame in the raw, then pay another $500 for a pro paint shop to paint it for you, put whatever you want on it. Your builder most likely charges close to the equivalent price for the paint job anyway. Problem solved.
    Because it's his choice to do so. Potential customer doesn't like it? Move on and find another builder.
    I work for some bike racers
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    I didn't see either your name or the manufacturer's name. I did say you "sound" like an entitled whiner. I know it's not quite calling you an entitled whiner explicitly but if the cap fits, as they say. Again, I just don't get why you felt the need to get opinions from a bunch of anonymous people and then get insulted at the less than tempered replies. Especially when you could probably conclude from the tone of this forum that branding is pretty important to a lot of people. Good luck, I hope you get what you want but if it's sympathy I think you are looking in the wrong place.

    Here's a proverb for you.
    Anonymously in that we don't really know who each other are here, unless we know each other in person. Otherwise, it's just guessing and imagination... we are effectively anonymous to each other.

    And no, wasn't looking for sympathy. But I can say that I'm too-often surprised that a post to a forum - posted in good faith, mind you, and without any rancor to the people in that forum - would elicit name-calling (or half-name-calling, as in "You sound like a...") and questioning the poster's character.

    Folks don't HAVE to do that. They can reply to the question, stating their own opinions, giving some information about the state of the industry, industry practices, what THEY like, etc. I just don't see the need to devolve into something akin to grade-school tactics - we're "supposed" to be adults. Can't we comport ourselves as such here?

    I have posted here before, though people weren't quite as critical of me in my past threads. I surely got a sense that people here love their brands, but I didn't realize that that necessary meant they thought I was some kind of a bad person for expecting that builders would let me put whatever design I wanted on the bike, wherever I wanted to place it. Seems to have struck some kind of nerve in some.

    As for the proverb - I don't know what that means; I'll find a friend who can translate it for me.
    Last edited by tbessie; 1 Week Ago at 09:55 PM.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Loving View Post
    I don't post anonymously. I think your design is pretentious and vain. You remind me of a guy in college who'd carry esoteric books around that he never read just to try to make an impression. Were I the builder I'd advise you to take your business elsewhere. The artisan deserves respect. Maybe they don't want nonsense showing on their work. If this truly is a "great frame builder" you should accept their terms. If they'd put that blather on the top tube, just accept it and move on. Your posts encourage rants...over and out! I feel better already.
    I don't know you, you don't know me, I don't know if who you present here is really you or not. We are effectively anonymous to each other.

    Pretentious and vain? It's something that means something to me, personally - isn't that what a custom design should be for an individual? Something that means something to them? I don't care if nobody knows what the words or design mean, I just care if I like it or not. If someone asks, I'll tell them, but I'm not putting it there for that reason.

    I respect the artisan - that's why I'm going to them to build my bike.

    I encourage rants? Or maybe you just like to rant?

    Glad you're feeling better.
    Last edited by tbessie; 1 Week Ago at 09:31 PM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtox View Post
    the joke seems forced...what is 'unnecessarily gaudy' about the bike?

    you realize 'gaudy' typically refers to something garish and in poor taste.
    It's an inside joke to myself only - I've been telling my friends that this is my "mid-life crisis bike"; something very fancy and unnecessary, but something I want... like a middle-aged guy (which I am) buying a Porsche. Except it's a bike. It's much much more of a fancy bike than I strictly need, and in that way, it's "unnecessarily gaudy". Yeah, I'm stretching the meaning of the word, but that's for my own amusement, nobody else's. If I cared what people thought of it and wanted general appeal, I'd put something more generally recognizable and mainstream than that on it - racing stripes, or the company's logo. :-)
    Last edited by tbessie; 1 Week Ago at 11:52 PM.

  9. #34
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    There is a simple solution to this. If you have your heart set on this particular builder, ask them to build the bike and leave it unfinished, then take it to a custom painter for a finish.

    But I fall in line with the others. I really can't understand why you would not want to have the standard builders name on the downtube. You are welcome to customize to your hearts content otherwise.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    Why would a frame builder insist that his name be on the downtube? That would mean the buyer is paying to advertise his brand, in a way? Yet, you hear of frame builders in Italy who will build a frame and put the name that is not theirs on the bike. Go figure.
    That's one of the reasons it didn't matter too much to me if the company's brand were on the downtube - I don't want the bike to be a rolling advertisement. In the design I submitted to them, they would have their brand on 4 places already, but that wasn't sufficient to satisfy them - if something bright and noticeable were on the downtube, it had to be their logo.

    OP, I have a suggest for you. Buy the frame in the raw, then pay another $500 for a pro paint shop to paint it for you, put whatever you want on it. Your builder most likely charges close to the equivalent price for the paint job anyway. Problem solved.
    I'd thought about that; we have some great painters where I live, so it's definitely a thought.

    I've submitted an alternative proposal to the builder, with my words on the top tube, and a simple colored design on the downtube, and their badge on the head tube. I think that will be okay with them, from what they've said.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Anonymously in that we don't really know who each other are here, unless we know each other in person. Otherwise, it's just guessing and imagination... we are effectively anonymous to each other.

    And no, wasn't looking for sympathy. But I can say that I'm too-often surprised that a post to a forum - posted in good faith, mind you, and without any rancor to the people in that forum - would elicit name-calling (or half-name-calling, as in "You sound like a...") and questioning the poster's character.

    Folks don't HAVE to do that. They can reply to the question, stating their own opinions, giving some information about the state of the industry, industry practices, what THEY like, etc. I just don't see the need to devolve into something akin to grade-school tactics - we're "supposed" to be adults. Can't we comport ourselves as such here?
    Tough crowd here, hon. They covered all bases and got ya to settle for a top tube sticker and down tube design. You got what you wanted and the builder holds onto the integrity of his product. The sport is very brand oriented. Names on the down tubes advertise to the niche market: other cyclists. Putting your name on the down tube is in effect stealing the builder's brand. Can't do that.

    Huffy had to sponsor the 7-11 Team to get Ben Serotta to put "Huffy" on the down tube of the team bikes. Serotta's name also appears several places on the frames. There are other examples of business deals like that. So what kind of financial reward are you gonna offer this nice frame builder to put your name on his product?

    Hey, choose an unusual color/graphics scheme that matches the mood or feeling of the word, and it'll be all you. Whatever you end up with, you'll grow to love like an old friend. Custom rigs are like that.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    There is a simple solution to this. If you have your heart set on this particular builder, ask them to build the bike and leave it unfinished, then take it to a custom painter for a finish.

    But I fall in line with the others. I really can't understand why you would not want to have the standard builders name on the downtube. You are welcome to customize to your hearts content otherwise.
    I've been considering it; but I've proposed a compromise to them (they'll reply tomorrow via email) which I think they'll be fine with (with my word on the top tube, a simple "design" on the downtube).

    Yeah, I've spent several months back and forth with these guys, even flew to their city, thousands of miles away, to talk with them and do a custom fitting, see their shop, etc. so I'm pretty invested. They said we could talk about graphics much later, after all the other stuff had been taken care of. If I'd know I couldn't have exactly what I wanted, I might have been reticent and looked for builders who didn't mind.

    I hope you can understand why I'm rather annoyed, given how much time and money I've already put into this. Of course, they've put time into it themselves.

    Why wouldn't I want their name on the downtube? Two things, mostly, as mentioned elsewhere... 1) I wanted what I wanted - the graphics designed and placed as I had conceived them, which didn't include their name on the downtube; it seemed natural to me that having whatever I wanted on the bike would be part of the custom experience, no exceptions... and 2) I don't care about (or even like) logos - to me, it's just advertising for the bike company. I don't wear brand names on tshirts, for example, and if I could, none of my bikes would have brand names on them either. Since I was getting one "fully custom", I had (wrongly) assumed that I could put anything on it anywhere - it was a big surprise to me that there was an unspoken caveat involved in this process.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Tough crowd here, hon. They covered all bases and got ya to settle for a top tube sticker and down tube design. You got what you wanted and the builder holds onto the integrity of his product. The sport is very brand oriented. Names on the down tubes advertise to the niche market: other cyclists. Putting your name on the down tube is in effect stealing the builder's brand. Can't do that.

    Huffy had to sponsor the 7-11 Team to get Ben Serotta to put "Huffy" on the down tube of the team bikes. Serotta's name also appears several places on the frames. There are other examples of business deals like that. So what kind of financial reward are you gonna offer this nice frame builder to put your name on his product?

    Hey, choose an unusual color/graphics scheme that matches the mood or feeling of the word, and it'll be all you. Whatever you end up with, you'll grow to love like an old friend. Custom rigs are like that.
    Well, I really appreciate you talking like a mature, good-natured person. That can be rare on the web. :-)

    As for stealing the builder's brand; given how extremely few of their customers want that, I can't really see the point of it - if less than 1% of the bikes they sell have some other word or words on the downtube, who is it hurting, really? How is it damaging their integrity or reputation? Seems like a far stretch to me.

    I'm sure I can't offer them a financial reward other than the around $6000 they'll be getting for the frame. If I were a super-rich feller, tho', I'd get the frame bare and have someone else put the graphics on it (or just give them so much money they might be swayed). But I appreciate the perspective you've given.

    The theme for the downtube I've suggested to them is pretty simple... not much more time left before they build it to come up with something that would match my ideas well. It took me a really long time, playing around with ideas, before I made my request of them - I'd need another month to come up with a better one.

    C'est la vie. :-)

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Anonymously in that we don't really know who each other are here, unless we know each other in person. Otherwise, it's just guessing and imagination... we are effectively anonymous to each other.

    And no, wasn't looking for sympathy. But I can say that I'm too-often surprised that a post to a forum - posted in good faith, mind you, and without any rancor to the people in that forum - would elicit name-calling (or half-name-calling, as in "You sound like a...") and questioning the poster's character.

    Folks don't HAVE to do that. They can reply to the question, stating their own opinions, giving some information about the state of the industry, industry practices, what THEY like, etc. I just don't see the need to devolve into something akin to grade-school tactics - we're "supposed" to be adults. Can't we comport ourselves as such here?

    I have posted here before, though people weren't quite as critical of me in my past threads. I surely got a sense that people here love their brands, but I didn't realize that that necessary meant they thought I was some kind of a bad person for expecting that builders would let me put whatever design I wanted on the bike, wherever I wanted to place it. Seems to have struck some kind of nerve in some.

    As for the proverb - I don't know what that means; I'll find a friend who can translate it for me.
    To be fair I hadn't had my morning coffee. I have nothing personal against you or your wishes but maybe in hindsight if the name was so important you should have mentioned it in the primary brief. I know they said they'd discuss graphics later but that was likely the time to check such an important detail.

    The proverb says
    人に期待どおりのものを差し出す義理は、人生にはない。
    hito ni kitai doori no mono o sashidasu giri wa, jinsei niwa nai.
    Life’s under no obligation to give us what we expect.

    my wife reminds of this, a lot.

    Enjoy the bike.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    I will add, however, that I don't appreciate folks casting aspersions on my character:-/
    Better not go to the Politics forum. Happens all the time there

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    For a sanity check, I called 5 of the top makers on my "short list":

    • Two said "sure, whatever you want, as long as it's not offensive".
    • One said "Our name HAS to be on the downtube, even if in a subdued style".
    • One said "If you want something else on the downtube, then we require that our name or logo be on at least two other places on the frame
    • One said he'd do what I'd want, but it's rather useless to ask other builders what they would do, since everyone has a different opinion on the matter; but that in general builders don't like something else on the downtube

    This one is simple. Just go to one of the three builders that said they would do what you want. Give them your business. Enjoy the bike.

    That being said, branding and "intellectual property" is a controversial area. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this particular case. I will say I believe it goes overboard more often than not.

    For example, did you know that Play Doh has copyright protection on the smell of their product and that anybody who makes a similar product with that smell could be sued for copyright infringement?

    And let's not forget how many times Specialized has engaged in frivolous lawsuits over intellectual property. I won't elaborate. You can Google or Wikipedia if you are interested.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwisimon View Post
    To be fair I hadn't had my morning coffee. I have nothing personal against you or your wishes but maybe in hindsight if the name was so important you should have mentioned it in the primary brief. I know they said they'd discuss graphics later but that was likely the time to check such an important detail.

    The proverb says
    人に期待どおりのものを差し出す義理は、人生にはない。
    hito ni kitai doori no mono o sashidasu giri wa, jinsei niwa nai.
    Life’s under no obligation to give us what we expect.

    my wife reminds of this, a lot.

    Enjoy the bike.
    The state of mind of lacking in coffee is well-appreciated. :-)

    The main thing about on the downtube was, I didn't think of it until recently - we were tossing ideas back and forth via email for about a month before I came up with that idea; otherwise I definitely would have asked about it earlier. :-/

    Thanks for the proverb - although I can get perturbed at life not giving me what I expect (or just hope for); I can heartily assure you that I don't feel life owes me anything - but I still get annoyed when I see what seems to be a nonsensical rule created by people, if you understand me.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by exracer View Post
    Better not go to the Politics forum. Happens all the time there
    Agreed - though I've spent most of my life engaged on the Internet (started in 1978 using Arpanet), my skin is still a tad too thin for it. :-/

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    This one is simple. Just go to one of the three builders that said they would do what you want. Give them your business. Enjoy the bike.
    ... Profit! ;-)

    I would do that if it weren't so late in the process; we've already done a bunch of work designing the bike, I flew to the company's workshop thousands of miles from me, etc. so I have a big sunk cost in this already. I will still go with them, though with a modified design that's a compromise.

    For any future bikes, at least I now know this kind of thing can be an issue.

    That being said, branding and "intellectual property" is a controversial area. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about this particular case. I will say I believe it goes overboard more often than not.

    For example, did you know that Play Doh has copyright protection on the smell of their product and that anybody who makes a similar product with that smell could be sued for copyright infringement?

    And let's not forget how many times Specialized has engaged in frivolous lawsuits over intellectual property. I won't elaborate. You can Google or Wikipedia if you are interested.
    Interesting stuff! Yeah, I'm not big on the whole "branding" thing - I hate advertising, I hate being a walking/rolling advertisement for products, don't like it forced upon me. This bike builder doesn't require their brand on it, so in that way they're more lenient than some. But they don't want something to look LIKE a brand that's not theirs, on one of their bikes.

    It's a strange, murky world. I guess I'm an outlier in not wanting branding (or not much) on my bike, and especially in wanting something other than a brand on the downtube.

    I'll check out those Specialized lawsuits.

    I know that the lawyers for J. K. Rowling have harassed people that simply wanted to have a Harry Potter Theme Party - it can definitely go overboard!

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...warner-lawyers

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    I would do that if it weren't so late in the process; we've already done a bunch of work designing the bike, I flew to the company's workshop thousands of miles from me, etc. so I have a big sunk cost in this already........
    Whew! You must have lots of spare time and money. All that to get custom lettering on your bike. Nothing wrong with that if it's your thing, just saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    I'll check out those Specialized lawsuits.
    Here's one to give you a chuckle:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Whew! You must have lots of spare time and money. All that to get custom lettering on your bike. Nothing wrong with that if it's your thing, just saying.
    Not really - I'm spending my money unwisely. :-/

    I also flew there on a Saturday, saw the bike guys on the Monday (took a day off from work), and flew back that night, arriving home around 2am. So I packed a lot into a small amount of time.

    It wasn't all for the custom lettering - I like their bikes and their designs. The custom lettering thing came later.

    Here's one to give you a chuckle:
    I'll check it out.

  22. #47
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    If I was a framebuilder I would not agree to being part of putting anything on a frame that wasn't my branding or other forms of decoration that I offered as an option. And if that cost me sales then so be it.

    There are many ways of decorating a bike frame after it's acquired.
    .
    Mike T's home wheelbuilding site - dedicated to providing Newby wheelbuilder's with motivation, information and resources.

    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    If I was a framebuilder I would not agree to being part of putting anything on a frame that wasn't my branding or other forms of decoration that I offered as an option. And if that cost me sales then so be it.

    There are many ways of decorating a bike frame after it's acquired.
    I agree that that's definitely the framebuilder's prerogative. It just never crossed my mind that branding would be such a big deal for a framebuilder, especially one that advertised its custom, customer-driven graphics. That's all.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    I agree that that's definitely the framebuilder's prerogative. It just never crossed my mind that branding would be such a big deal for a framebuilder, especially one that advertised its custom, customer-driven graphics. That's all.
    It may have something to do with an agreement between the custom builder and the bike frame maker. Many bike makers have requirements for their retailers. I can only assume these requirements extend to custom builders as well.

    Take Trek for example. They have now made it a requirement that retailers must have at least 80% Trek stock or they can no longer sell Trek. This kind of bullying of retail bike shops is becoming more prevalent.
    Last edited by Lombard; 1 Week Ago at 12:03 PM.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  25. #50
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    What a strange word, and even stranger thread ...

    I think you are off base to assume that "custom" means whatever you want. You are dealing with an artist after all


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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