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  1. #51
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    This forum can be harsh. Seems pretty simple. If the builder is not meeting your expectations then move on. His name goes on it and he has a right to refuse your request. And you sir, have the right to have your downpayment refunded and to find another builder.

    You have options. Exercise them. Posting this thread can get you no relief from your woe. At best venting is it but as you should see by now it comes off whiney.

    I'm in the process with Kish. If Jim tells me I won't do this or that I wouldn't challenge him. I could either accept his way or I move on.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    It may have something to do with an agreement between the custom builder and the bike frame maker. Many bike makers have requirements for their retailers. I can only assume these requirements extend to custom builders as well.

    Take Trek for example. They have now made it a requirement that retailers must have at least 80% Trek stock or they can no longer sell Trek. This kind of bullying of retail bike shops is becoming more prevalent.
    Possibly, though I don't think this place sells at dealerships; they only do custom work, so that's not it. They just have an idea about brand identity and it's relatively strong.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    It just never crossed my mind that branding would be such a big deal for a framebuilder, especially one that advertised its custom, customer-driven graphics.
    Hindsight is always 20/20 and you know what happens when we assume don't you? Yes, it's almost impossible to think of every question; some things we just take for granted.
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    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drone 5200 View Post
    What a strange word, and even stranger thread ...

    I think you are off base to assume that "custom" means whatever you want. You are dealing with an artist after allk

    I've definitely been called "strange" in my time. :-D

    Well, I'm definitely learning a lot through this experience about what builders will and won't do!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by biscut View Post
    I'm in the process with Kish. If Jim tells me I won't do this or that I wouldn't challenge him. I could either accept his way or I move on.
    I checked out lots of builders before ordering my Ti frame - a Kish - and Jim would do some things that others wouldn't (or didn't). So more of *my* boxes got checked than with the others. But then I did two years of homework first (that's the time it took me to pluck up the courage to run the idea past Mrs T. I kid you not)
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    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Hindsight is always 20/20 and you know what happens when we assume don't you? Yes, it's almost impossible to think of every question; some things we just take for granted.
    Heh - I first heard the "assume" thing on an old episode of "The Odd Couple" when I was a kid...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svkgOsr7pUc

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by biscut View Post
    This forum can be harsh. Seems pretty simple. If the builder is not meeting your expectations then move on. His name goes on it and he has a right to refuse your request. And you sir, have the right to have your downpayment refunded and to find another builder.

    You have options. Exercise them. Posting this thread can get you no relief from your woe. At best venting is it but as you should see by now it comes off whiney.

    I'm in the process with Kish. If Jim tells me I won't do this or that I wouldn't challenge him. I could either accept his way or I move on.
    Well - many here see it as whiny, and lots of others elsewhere don't - so it really depends upon context, and also upon knowledge of the people involved, I think.

    Folks who know me, in general, don't seem to think it's whiny, since they know my personality and when I'm being whiny and when I'm not. 'course, they might just be being nice - I take a mix of what friends say and what strangers say, and take their cumulative input as an average of reality, at least sometimes.

    Anyway, I just spoke with the maker, now that I've calmed down, and we're working it out. :-)

    I spoke with Kish, also, when this first happened, just to see what his attitude on it would be. He was one of the people who didn't care if some other wording was present on the downtube - he said he wouldn't do anything offensive (eg. swastikas), but aside from that, he didn't mind.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I checked out lots of builders before ordering my Ti frame - a Kish - and Jim would do some things that others wouldn't (or didn't). So more of *my* boxes got checked than with the others. But then I did two years of homework first (that's the time it took me to pluck up the courage to run the idea past Mrs T. I kid you not)
    If you don't mind my asking, what were the things he would do that others wouldn't? And did you hit anything that he said he wouldn't do?

    When I spoke with him on the phone, he seemed pretty laid back, not someone to fear. :-)

    ... now *Bruce Gordon* was another matter...

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    If you don't mind my asking, what were the things he would do that others wouldn't?
    It's six years since I got it so the memory is a bit fuzzy but I think my requirements were -

    Standard BB shell.
    Standard HT.
    Tapered chainstays.
    Brushed finish. Very fine. (I certainly got that)
    30.9 (I think) seapost. Not 27.2
    Breezer style rear dropouts.
    Externally butted HT.
    No chainstay bridge.

    I think that's it. None of that stuff was negotiable so some (like Seven with their straight chainstays) were out of the running PDQ.

    I wanted a plain looking frame with some small subtle detail (Potts was my initial first choice but some things I can't remember [probably non tapered chainstays] put him out of the running)

    And did you hit anything that he said he wouldn't do?
    Not that I can remember.

    When I spoke with him on the phone, he seemed pretty laid back, not someone to fear.
    I never spoke to him in person.

    ... now *Bruce Gordon* was another matter...
    I think Baum and Eriksen never responded to my initial trial-balloon questions. I get the main overall feeling from the first contact reaction. I think Jim got back to me on a Sunday morning at 3am. Something like that. The two mentioned never did reply.
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    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Well - many here see it as whiny, and lots of others elsewhere don't - so it really depends upon context, and also upon knowledge of the people involved, I think.

    Folks who know me, in general, don't seem to think it's whiny, since they know my personality and when I'm being whiny and when I'm not. 'course, they might just be being nice - I take a mix of what friends say and what strangers say, and take their cumulative input as an average of reality, at least sometimes.

    Anyway, I just spoke with the maker, now that I've calmed down, and we're working it out. :-)

    I spoke with Kish, also, when this first happened, just to see what his attitude on it would be. He was one of the people who didn't care if some other wording was present on the downtube - he said he wouldn't do anything offensive (eg. swastikas), but aside from that, he didn't mind.

    I thought very highly of Firefly but went Kish only because the guy just connects with me in a no BS sales way just a hey man I'm here and I'm serious about making your bike fit you and your needs. I wouldn't begin to dream I was a rider who could tell either apart from the other. Both have amazing reputations. Jim was just kinda like your best buddy building your frame.

    Glad you worked it out. Just breaking your balls because no way you were going to get legitimate guidance from this site on that issue. Dead nuts fact laden questions are answered with some really solid knowledge base. Anything that lends itself to an opinion and the atom splits.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    It's six years since I got it so the memory is a bit fuzzy but I think my requirements were -
    ... doesn't sound like you were asking for anything too strange. Good that you eventually got what you wanted. :-)

    I must have been lucky - I called the builders and seemed to reach most of them on the first try. Never looked at Baum, tho' I hear they are fantastic.

    Of all the people I spoke with, I think Steve Potts was the nicest of them all - very enjoyable to talk to, engaging manner. I hope that perhaps I can work with him on a future bike. When I spoke with him the other day, he told me that he's being affected somewhat by the big fires raging in Northern California, where he's moved his factory. Bad time to have moved up there. :-(

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by biscut View Post
    I thought very highly of Firefly but went Kish only because the guy just connects with me in a no BS sales way just a hey man I'm here and I'm serious about making your bike fit you and your needs. I wouldn't begin to dream I was a rider who could tell either apart from the other. Both have amazing reputations. Jim was just kinda like your best buddy building your frame.

    Glad you worked it out. Just breaking your balls because no way you were going to get legitimate guidance from this site on that issue. Dead nuts fact laden questions are answered with some really solid knowledge base. Anything that lends itself to an opinion and the atom splits.
    Yeah, I got a good feeling about Kish as well, though I hadn't spoken to him before I chose a builder. I probably should have, as I liked his attitude.

    Perhaps for my next bike. :-)

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by biscut View Post
    .......went Kish only because the guy just connects with me in a no BS sales way just a hey man I'm here and I'm serious about making your bike fit you and your needs.
    I liked Jim's honesty. I knew the answer to my question but I like to see what the builders had to say to my question "What's the difference between butted and straight gauge Ti tubing?"

    Jim's "About 4oz and $300" was his very honest reply.
    .
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    Everything above, up to that blue line, is IMO IMO.

  14. #64
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    i asked porsche if they would remove the badging of a new 991 for my own "döuchebag" brand. the term, "döuchebag," reminds me of my favorite fictional wizard, and i've got the money to rebrand anything. at first, porsche said they would do it with the caveats of no warranty nor drive the car in the u.s./europe. that was ok with me, 'cause i live on a private island near uzschlongistan. but then, they got my letter, with all my excellent logic in it, and they called the whole thing off. don't know why. oh, well. for now, i'll continue to drive my custom pt cruiser with the hemi and lift kit.
    Yossarian: don't worry. nothing's going to happen to you that won't happen to the rest of us.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Possibly, though I don't think this place sells at dealerships; they only do custom work, so that's not it. They just have an idea about brand identity and it's relatively strong.

    My point was that anybody who sells bikes or frames needs to have a relationship with the bike or frame maker. It doesn't matter whether they are a retailer (or dealership as you put it) or a custom builder. They need to have a relationship such that they can get those bikes or frames at wholesale pricing. Otherwise, there is no profit to be made. That relationship comes with rules imposed by the bike or frame maker.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    30.9 (I think) seapost. Not 27.2
    Just out of curiosity, why was this a priority?
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    I liked Jim's honesty. I knew the answer to my question but I like to see what the builders had to say to my question "What's the difference between butted and straight gauge Ti tubing?"

    Jim's "About 4oz and $300" was his very honest reply.
    What??? And I always thought the double butted tubing was stronger.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    i asked porsche if they would remove the badging of a new 991 for my own "döuchebag" brand. the term, "döuchebag," reminds me of my favorite fictional wizard, and i've got the money to rebrand anything. at first, porsche said they would do it with the caveats of no warranty nor drive the car in the u.s./europe. that was ok with me, 'cause i live on a private island near uzschlongistan. but then, they got my letter, with all my excellent logic in it, and they called the whole thing off. don't know why. oh, well. for now, i'll continue to drive my custom pt cruiser with the hemi and lift kit.
    Ha! Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who wanted to put their own "brand" on something. :-/

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Ha! Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who wanted to put their own "brand" on something. :-/
    I think he was joking.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Beware of geeks bearing formulas."
    -- Warren Buffett

    "Education is what you get when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get when you don't. -- Pete Seeger



  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I think he was joking.
    Hard to tell - half of it sounded normal and reasonable, and half sounded ridiculous.

    ... just reread it; I think I must hang in a different crowd than most of the world - quite a few folks I know would actually do something like that, probably do have a favorite "fictional wizard" and would think "Döuchbag" would be amusing, actually.

    Probably comes from growing up in the Bay Area.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Hard to tell -
    not really...

    ...'cause i live on a private island near uzschlongistan...
    the 45th POTUS is inept, corrupt, and a pathological liar. and those may be his better qualities...

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oxtox View Post
    not really...

    ...'cause i live on a private island near uzschlongistan...
    Of course not - I took it initially as a smeared version of something the poster actually did (with lots of fake detail added for humorous effect).

    Dunno why I didn't see it at first for the obvious parody it is - funny! :-)

    That said... I really do know several people who would do something like that. I must live on a different planet.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbessie View Post
    Hard to tell ... "Döuchbag" would be amusing, actually.
    Yossarian: don't worry. nothing's going to happen to you that won't happen to the rest of us.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackfrancois View Post
    Just because YOU don't find it amusing, doesn't mean someone else wouldn't ya know. There's a million ideas of what's funny, appropriate, etc.

    To each their own, eh?
    Last edited by tbessie; 09-15-2017 at 02:32 PM.

  25. #75
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    putting the word Douchbag on something you wear, ride, or drive is an exercise in self-awareness.
    the 45th POTUS is inept, corrupt, and a pathological liar. and those may be his better qualities...

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