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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    The introduction of life saving disc brakes into the road bikes of today has even accelerated the carbon frame advancement..
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    How many friends of yours have died because they didn't have disc brakes on their road bike??
    Time to make some popcorn.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelandjt View Post
    The benefit of "monocoque" over lugged is it gives the engineer more freedom to arrange the right amount, type, and direction of carbon in each spot to tune strength and stiffness. It also allows for shapes that help stiffness and aero.
    Just a guess here, but I'm thinking monocoque makes production cheaper as well.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

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  3. #28
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    Some older carbon frames had aluminum inserts that were bonded in place (dropouts, seat post supports, steerers etc). These would corrode over time and lead to paint bubbling or even frame failure.

    To be fair I've had aluminum corroding to the point of failure even on Ti bikes (front derailleur clamps). Basically anything that doesn't corrode is going to turn anything else that does into a sacrificial anode. I should try strapping a small zinc plate to the frame and see if that makes a difference...
    “Bicycling has done more to emancipate women than anything else in the world.” - Susan B. Anthony 1896
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Just a guess here, but I'm thinking monocoque makes production cheaper as well.
    Cheaper than what?
    When you factor in the high cost of a mold and that it takes more skill than gluing tubes together it's definitely not a cheap way to build frames.
    If you consider economies of scale and cheap labor as compared to one-off production where labor isn't cheap than some of them may be cheaper though.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Cheaper than what?
    When you factor in the high cost of a mold and that it takes more skill than gluing tubes together it's definitely not a cheap way to build frames.
    If you consider economies of scale and cheap labor as compared to one-off production where labor isn't cheap than some of them may be cheaper though.
    As I said, it was just a guess. I may have guessed wrong.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    How many friends of yours have died because they didn't have disc brakes on their road bike? In fact, how many stories have you heard or read where somebody died in a bicycle crash that would have lived if they had disc brakes instead of rim brakes on their road bikes? Or are you just using this reasoning to justify having disc brakes on a road bike?

    Oh, and when you specify this $11,000 bike I hope you realize that there are plenty of hand crafted steel bikes with rim brakes costing that and more.
    I know hundreds that survived horrific crashes and would have perished to an early grave had they been on a bicycle with inferior rim brakes rather than vastly superior disc brake bikes.

    There may be 11k steel bikes but I guarantee the old cheapos posting about their steel bike from 40 years ago being no different than the state of the art 2018 carbon frames of today aren’t on them.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    I know hundreds that survived horrific crashes and would have perished to an early grave had they been on a bicycle with inferior rim brakes rather than vastly superior disc brake bikes.
    Did I miss some sarcasm or are you really that full of it? I can't think of one crash on disc brakes I know for sure would have resulted in a fatality but for rim brakes. But you know of hundreds.

    Here's a tip for you: The key to good trolling is keeping it believable or a hint of truth. You are not a good troll.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    I know hundreds that survived horrific crashes and would have perished to an early grave had they been on a bicycle with inferior rim brakes rather than vastly superior disc brake bikes.
    So you don't know of anybody who died in a crash because of rim brakes, you just know hundreds who have had horrific crashes because of those "vastly superior" disc brakes.

    Hmm.
    Too old to ride plastic

  9. #34
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    construction method
    Too old to ride plastic

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    So you don't know of anybody who died in a crash because of rim brakes, you just know hundreds who have had horrific crashes because of those "vastly superior" disc brakes.

    Hmm.
    Every day around the world hundreds needlessly die due to inferior rim brakes where as hundreds survive every day du to superior disc brakes. Best part in all of this is rim brakes are going bye bye and in a few years will be like 8 track tapes. Love that the disc break phenomenon so irritates you,

  11. #36
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    Trolls taste like chicken.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    Every day around the world hundreds needlessly die due to inferior rim brakes where as hundreds survive every day du to superior disc brakes. Best part in all of this is rim brakes are going bye bye and in a few years will be like 8 track tapes. Love that the disc break phenomenon so irritates you,
    It doesn't irritate me at all, they're just another choice that is there for us to make.

    I just felt that the foolishness of your post needed a response. You still haven't commented of the hundreds who have had horrific crashes because of those "vastly superior" disc brakes that you have witnessed. Why the horrific crashes if those disc brakes are so "vastly superior"?
    Too old to ride plastic

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    Every day around the world hundreds needlessly die due to inferior rim brakes where as hundreds survive every day du to superior disc brakes. Best part in all of this is rim brakes are going bye bye and in a few years will be like 8 track tapes. Love that the disc break phenomenon so irritates you,
    I'm calling BS. Over 90% of cycling is marketing BS. You're just sold on it. How long have you been riding? Rim brakes have been around for over 100 years. They just work. Disc have been around for a few decades and have been successful in mountain biking and touring. Why did it take so long to incorporate into road bikes....the most expensive of all groups of bicycles? They had considered, but it was counter productive to making the bikes lighter. The answer came with the high demand of carbon wheels. Manufacturers have spent millions and years of R&D and they couldn't solve the carbon rim heat issue. Aluminum braking surfaces dissipate heat faster. Look at how many carbon wheels have failed due to overheating. The solution: Move the brakes. disc is the least expensive way to do this. The technology was already there; It was a matter of making them viable for lightweight road bikes. Disc brake bikes are quite a bit heavier than their rim brake equivalent. Manufacturers didn't decide to use them because they are safer. If that were the case, the bike industry would've done it sooner. They made the move to sell more carbon wheels. The fact you use the term "disc brake phenomenon" shows that you're not as knowledgeable as you think you are. It's old hat equipment in the cycling world being used on road bikes now. Also, these aren't "retro grouches" you're discussing this topic with; These are "Been there, done that" riders, have nothing to gain from doing this. Most have ridden bikes you probably have never even heard of. If you want to learn from people who really know, It's actually in your best interest to consider what they are saying. You could learn a thing or two. What you choose to buy is up to you. Nothing wrong with it, but no need to use marketing jargon to convince us- "disc brake phenomenon." As for the disc brakes: Disc brakes do have a few benefits, but that's not why the industry is pushing them. Like I said before, if it was actually better than rim brakes, they would've adapted it long ago. Sorry for no paragraphs. I'm typing this from my cell phone.
    Last edited by terbennett; 04-03-2018 at 11:14 AM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    It doesn't irritate me at all, they're just another choice that is there for us to make.

    I just felt that the foolishness of your post needed a response. You still haven't commented of the hundreds who have had horrific crashes because of those "vastly superior" disc brakes that you have witnessed. Why the horrific crashes if those disc brakes are so "vastly superior"?
    These horrific crashes would have been fatal crashes without disc brakes. Theses incidents were caused primarily by automobiles and poor bike handling skills. Disc brakes prevent death.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    these horrific crashes would have been fatal crashes without brakes. Theses incidents were caused primarily by automobiles and poor bike handling skills. Brakes prevent death.
    fify!

    That crazy British dude comes to mind that mowed down a pedestrian...

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...-of-pedestrian
    “Bicycling has done more to emancipate women than anything else in the world.” - Susan B. Anthony 1896
    "Cycling and ethical bankruptcy have always gone together." - Bike Snob NYC
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by terbennett View Post
    I'm calling BS. Over 90% of cycling is marketing BS.
    Posting random, made up statistics to debate random made up statistics?

    Doesn't really help your case.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    Every day around the world hundreds needlessly die due to inferior rim brakes where as hundreds survive every day du to superior disc brakes. Best part in all of this is rim brakes are going bye bye and in a few years will be like 8 track tapes. Love that the disc break phenomenon so irritates you,
    Bulls#it. Just plain ole stinky bulls#it.

    You don't know one single person let alone hundreds.


    disclaimer: I own disc brake bikes. And I own rim brake bikes. And I just bought a new (rim) brake bike.
    Custom Di2 & Garmin/GoPro mounts 2013 SuperSix EVO Hi-MOD Team * 2004 Klein Aura V

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    These horrific crashes would have been fatal crashes without disc brakes. Theses incidents were caused primarily by automobiles and poor bike handling skills. Disc brakes prevent death.
    Prove this.

    Until you do you're just talkin' out your ass, and you're not even very good at it.
    Too old to ride plastic

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    These horrific crashes would have been fatal crashes without disc brakes. Theses incidents were caused primarily by automobiles and poor bike handling skills. Disc brakes prevent death.
    ^ Who the hell is this guy? ^
    I work for some bike racers
    I've got some bikes, some guns,
    and a bunch of skateboards

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    ^ Who the hell is this guy? ^
    The Propaganda Minister of Misinformation
    Too old to ride plastic

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Bulls#it. Just plain ole stinky bulls#it.

    You don't know one single person let alone hundreds.


    disclaimer: I own disc brake bikes. And I own rim brake bikes. And I just bought a new (rim) brake bike.
    I only deal in facts and it’s a fact that disc brakes rule and rim brakes drool!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    Today’s carbon frames are light years ahead of antiquated frames such as the one you find yourself riding. Think of how much a cellphone has advanced in 11 years and quadruple that advancement to arrive at the numerical difference in overall increased quality of today’s carbon frames. Some manufacturers are using such advanced carbon it is considered defense grade and they need to get special defense department approval to use it in the frame builds. The introduction of life saving disc brakes into the road bikes of today has even accelerated the carbon frame advancement. It’s a great time to buy a high quality carbon bike. These people posting that they are riding the same hulking hunk of steel for over 30 years and couldn’t tell a difference between it and an 11k bike they just test rode are simply trying to justify their cheapness.
    Here's one old fart who's been riding since '79 as a full-on adult in midlife crisis. I sprang for a hand brazed CRMO frame, fully Campy equipped as was the "standard" back then. Its held up amazingly well after 70,000 miles and at least 10 wipe outs. The wheels and handlebars bent, but the frame and fork stayed true the whole time. I've replaced rims, saddles, handlebars, brake levers, one headset, that's it.

    The one accident that bent the second steel frame custom built for commuting, was hitting a brick wall without wearing a helmet. It put me in a coma for a week. The frame builder, however, bent the fork back and ever so slightly tweaked the head tube into alignment. 50,000 miles later, if you look closely, you'll see slight ripples, but no cracks or chipped paint. I have complete faith I'll make it home once again, come hell or high water.

    Every time I see pix of carbon frames splitting apart on the top and down tubes, I shudder. I'm sure there are carbons frames that are as strong as steel, but what are ya going to go on? Reputation. Buyer beware.

    The achilles heel of carbon is IMO, its lack of molecular density. CRMO does it chemically. Carbon so far failed to achieve the same results with carbon layups and tubing sizes, to meet qualities of resiliency, strength, endurance, steel achieves naturally.

    Word has also been out over the years that few bike manufacturers have the money or will to hire aircraft engineers, so bike frames are seldom tested like airplane wings for structural integrity. Its only a bike, right? Ralph Nader had a word for that, "planned obsolescence." Steel bikes did everything superbly well by the '80s, probably earlier than the '80s. The only advantage carbon has is lighter weight. And if the trade off is flippy frames that will eventually break, forget it.

    I sure can't afford a new $10,000 bike every few years to keep up with the infinitesimal improvements carbon has to offer. Old top of the line bikes, as with cars, go out of style for a while, but the good stuff still rides great. Enthusiasts drive up prices because they treasure the ride quality of those old steel frames. The legs quickly compensate for the 3-4 pound weight handicap, because the bike handles so well.

    I've lusted after each new innovation and test ridden aluminum and carbon bikes along the way. The best ones rode great, but so far, 35 years later, I've found nothing that really rang my bells, so stuck to the old lugged CRMO steel frames from the '80s. They've been the best value of any vehicles I've ever owned. Paid $1400 for the Italian wonder, complete bike with the best components available at the time. It never rode like a hulking hunk of steel, although I'll grant you such bikes were plentiful when steel was king. The same bike new today would be at least $5000. No way am I going to spend an additional $5000 to "get the best."

    I don't race, nor have a financial sponsor or follow vehicle. So I value reliability over weight. The small weight trade off is well worth it.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 04-04-2018 at 04:45 AM.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    I only deal in facts and it’s a fact that disc brakes rule and rim brakes drool!
    Are you the same dude in another thread that thanked the Lord every day for disc brakes?

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggrin View Post
    I know hundreds . . . Trolls
    Go away dumb ass troll.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    ^ Who the hell is this guy? ^
    A troll with empty stomach. He was well fed for last 24 hours.

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