Moots RSL custom at $5,025 or Carl Strong Ti custom?

[Kontact]

This is one old thread, but it got me thinking. Why would you choose Ti over SS. I was thinking that stainless steel would be preferable. I dont know though.....

Ti and steel ride differently, and SS can corrode, where Ti simply can't. If you like the feel of one or the other, that's cool. But ti has the edge in bad conditions.

[tigoat]

Nice thread dredge. Either way, are you talking about Rivnuts? These are perfectly good for making water bottle cage bosses. I've used them myself and would definitely use them again if/when I needed some.

Yeah those damn rivnuts used by Litespeed in the old days! I can't believe that some big name makers are still using them on their high end metal frames. Sure they work but the point is that they are cheap and cheesy and do not belong on a high dollar custom frame.

[Kontact]

Yeah those damn rivnuts used by Litespeed in the old days! I can't believe that some big name makers are still using them on their high end metal frames. Sure they work but the point is that they are cheap and cheesy and do not belong on a high dollar custom frame.

Of course high end companies use rivnuts. High end companies use butted tubing, and water bottle mounts would have to be welded into the center of the thinnest part of the tube. 0.4mm titanium gets heat damaged awful fast, all for the sake of a bottle mount.

Butting affects both weight and ride qualities, before you start raging about that. The frames that have always been held up as the very best riding Ti bikes available are butted - Extralight, Legend, etc.

And BB30 doesn't make the frame stiffer, nor does moving the cups. You are attacking certain things as myths while restating a few yourself.

[darwinosx]

Moots because that's what I have.

[dongringo]

Of course high end companies use rivnuts. High end companies use butted tubing, and water bottle mounts would have to be welded into the center of the thinnest part of the tube. 0.4mm titanium gets heat damaged awful fast, all for the sake of a bottle mount.

Jim Kish welds the bottle mounts on butted tubing. He's the principal ti building instructor at UBI and one of the most highly regarded ti welders/builders in the industry so I trust him. Then again, that's probably why he does it, because he's that good. Plus he's building me one as I type this so it couldn't be a bad thing.

[tigoat]

Of course high end companies use rivnuts. High end companies use butted tubing, and water bottle mounts would have to be welded into the center of the thinnest part of the tube. 0.4mm titanium gets heat damaged awful fast, all for the sake of a bottle mount.

Butting affects both weight and ride qualities, before you start raging about that. The frames that have always been held up as the very best riding Ti bikes available are butted - Extralight, Legend, etc.

And BB30 doesn't make the frame stiffer, nor does moving the cups. You are attacking certain things as myths while restating a few yourself.

???

Moots, Eriksen, Kish, DeSalvo, Holland, Salsa/Lynskey and many other builders weld water bottle mounts to the frame and I have not seen or heard of any of them failing. Welding these mounts is not just for the sake of welding, it also serves as a reinforcement for the hole to minimize "fatigue" cracking from around the hole. In general it is not a good idea to drill any hole in the middle of a tube but if you do it would be best to reinforce it.

As for your other points in regards to butting, BB30, we can debate until the cow come home so let's not even waste bandwidth on these issues. Run a search on these forums, as these debates, especially butting have been discussed zillion times.

[tigoat]

Jim Kish welds the bottle mounts on butted tubing. He's the principal ti building instructor at UBI and one of the most highly regarded ti welders/builders in the industry so I trust him. Then again, that's probably why he does it, because he's that good. Plus he's building me one as I type this so it couldn't be a bad thing.

Just curious, what are you getting from Jim?

[tigoat]

My question pretty much summed it up.

That RSL sure is pretty, but $5k + 9.75% sales tax is giving me a sticker shock.
Can a comparable custom Ti by Carl Strong be had for less? My max budget for a custom Ti frame is $3K.

Thanks in advance,

So what did you get?

[dongringo]

Just curious, what are you getting from Jim?

Hi tigoat. I'm getting this:

Frame: Kish Custom Road SL - Reynolds 3/2.5 butted ti (blue decals)
Stem and headset spacers: Kish Custom mix of 3/2.5 and 6/4 ti (black faceplate)
Fork: Enve 1.0
Shifters, Breaks, Front and Rear Derailleurs, Compact Crankset: Sram Force
Cassette: Sram OG-1070 11/25
Chain: Sram PC-1071
Bottom Bracket: Chris King (blue)
Headset: Chris King (blue)
Handlebar: Deda Zero 100
Bar tape: Fizik microtex (metallic blue to match saddle)
Seatpost: Thompson Masterpiece
Seatpost collar: Extralite (blue)
Wheels: Hand spun by Jim DT Swiss RR465 black, black DT Swiss spokes, black brass nipples / laced to Chris King hubs (blue)
Tires: Schwalbe Durano (blue)
Skewers: Far and Near (blue) ti axle and carbon wrapped alu handle

What I will be adding to it when it arrives:

Saddle: Fizik Aliante Gamma (metallic blue)
Pedals: Look Keo Classic
Bottle cages: Arundel Mandible
Computer: Garmin Edge 500

Will post pics when I receive it.

[Bunyan]

That's going to be one sick bike! Can't wait to hear how she rides and see how the color accents work out.
I'm toying with the same Ti with blue bits our stay stealth black.
My build will be with a custom Russian Ti build though. I can't afford a US custom with a baby on the way.

[dongringo]

Nice!!! What Russian builder are you looking at?

[Bunyan]

I've got a down payment on a custom Ti road frame from Tritonbikes dot com.
He started out with trials and makes some really beefy bikes. I was originally looking at a 29er hard tail mtb but opted for the road instead. Probably easier to hit the roads than the trail once the baby is here.
I'm also a large/tall Clyde and he's able to build me a stout Ti frame that will be able to handle my weight (280lbs). I'm going with an oversized down tube (44mm) and a 1.5" head tube.

Still debating on what fork and wheels. Looking at Enve 2.0 and a SRAM Force with either blue bits like you or black.
I'm new to road biking (coming from mtbks) and learned early at my weight, if you buy cheap you buy twice. I know I'm taking a bit of a risk with the Russian Ti but from what I've read and talking with Triton I'm confidant I'll get a good solid frame. Check out his website. He's great to work with.

[dongringo]

Interesting. Looks like he can build about anything. Will be interested in your new frame and how everything goes together. I'd like to build up another ti frame in the future, but won't be able to spend near what I did on the Kish. Keeping this in mind.

[tigoat]

Hi tigoat. I'm getting this:

Frame: Kish Custom Road SL - Reynolds 3/2.5 butted ti (blue decals)
Stem and headset spacers: Kish Custom mix of 3/2.5 and 6/4 ti (black faceplate)
Fork: Enve 1.0
Shifters, Breaks, Front and Rear Derailleurs, Compact Crankset: Sram Force
Cassette: Sram OG-1070 11/25
Chain: Sram PC-1071
Bottom Bracket: Chris King (blue)
Headset: Chris King (blue)
Handlebar: Deda Zero 100
Bar tape: Fizik microtex (metallic blue to match saddle)
Seatpost: Thompson Masterpiece
Seatpost collar: Extralite (blue)
Wheels: Hand spun by Jim DT Swiss RR465 black, black DT Swiss spokes, black brass nipples / laced to Chris King hubs (blue)
Tires: Schwalbe Durano (blue)
Skewers: Far and Near (blue) ti axle and carbon wrapped alu handle

What I will be adding to it when it arrives:

Saddle: Fizik Aliante Gamma (metallic blue)
Pedals: Look Keo Classic
Bottle cages: Arundel Mandible
Computer: Garmin Edge 500

Will post pics when I receive it.

Top notch build dongringo! Rest assured Jim will weld those water bottle mounts to the frame with a touch of class if not for antyhing else. It just gives me a chill to think about paying top dollars for a custom ti frame with cheap and cheesy wedged-in rivets. Unacceptable. Anyhow, let's see some pictures of your impressive rig when it is built. Thannks.

[Wilkinson411]

At 3K budget, check out Dave Levy at Ti Cycles. If you can go over that there are many Ti builders out there but if you are looking at a racy bike I would check out Firefly.

You can't go wrong with Strong, he has process nailed at it will be a smooth experience.

[akamp]

This is what Steve Potts has to say about butted tubing. I don't think you will find many people with the experience that he has.

"Great to hear from you ! Thanks for the update on your riding also. On the titanium frames I use Sandvik or Haynes tubing. It is made in the USA. Some sizes are hard to find, such as the thicker head tube material and that is imported and I will get that from Paragon when I can't find my American tubing. Supply can be very difficult. All of the tubing has to be certified to the same standards for use in the USA, and I always get certified tubing only. As far as double butted tubing, I have found that the cost benefit to weight savings is out of balance. The weight savings is just not that great and also the durability of the bike is compromised a bit. I will still build with butted tubing if requested to but the straight guage frames ride so nice already, especially out of the saddle climbing.Whenever you take material away there will be a weight savings and loss of strength or torsional properties. I would love to build yo a new road frame, so let me know if you have any questions. As far as the integrated seat mast, yes they are cool and pretty nice looking, but not practical as far as the life and versatility of a frame. I am about 6 months out still."

I have been riding a mountain bike he built me since may and I have to say it is an incredible bike as I am sure any of the others listed in this thread would be also.

[poff]

RSL uses oversized doublebutted tubes - easy to mate with BB30 and 44mm HT since no ovalizing is needed. I like mine, it rides very different from the CR I also have.

[Eric007]

I can't imagine it is possible to go wrong with Strong, Moots, Eriksen, Kish. You may pause and jot down what things you think are important to you beyond the obvious desire for an excellent frame (such as welding versus riveting bosses, type of finish, paint type, whether the builder is enthusiastic for racing versus touring) and then e-mail them and see with whom you strike a cord. When I did this for a lugged steel bike, one thing that was important to me was turnaround time -- at the time Richard Sachs was 5+ years, which took him off the list for that project.

But in addition to finding out what the backlogs were (I wanted something under 12 months as my limit), I found out quickly who responded to e-mails promptly and who was pleasant to deal with. FWIW, the one time In communicated with Carl Strong he answered immediately and was terrific to communicate with. And I have nothing bad to say about anyone on your list.

P.S. It looks like I "joined" in 2008, but I must have forgotten that, hence the 3-post total.

[tigoat]

This is what Steve Potts has to say about butted tubing. I don't think you will find many people with the experience that he has.

"Great to hear from you ! Thanks for the update on your riding also. On the titanium frames I use Sandvik or Haynes tubing. It is made in the USA. Some sizes are hard to find, such as the thicker head tube material and that is imported and I will get that from Paragon when I can't find my American tubing. Supply can be very difficult. All of the tubing has to be certified to the same standards for use in the USA, and I always get certified tubing only. As far as double butted tubing, I have found that the cost benefit to weight savings is out of balance. The weight savings is just not that great and also the durability of the bike is compromised a bit. I will still build with butted tubing if requested to but the straight guage frames ride so nice already, especially out of the saddle climbing.Whenever you take material away there will be a weight savings and loss of strength or torsional properties. I would love to build yo a new road frame, so let me know if you have any questions. As far as the integrated seat mast, yes they are cool and pretty nice looking, but not practical as far as the life and versatility of a frame. I am about 6 months out still."

I have been riding a mountain bike he built me since may and I have to say it is an incredible bike as I am sure any of the others listed in this thread would be also.

It is not surprising to hear Potts insight in regards to butted tubing. As an additional reference, Strong has only 5 years warranty on a butted frame vs. lifetime for a straight gauge frame.

[dongringo]

Kish has a lifetime warranty on a butted frame.

[tigoat]

Kish has a lifetime warranty on a butted frame.

Yeah it is nice of Jim to stand behind his butted frames.

[Ramjm_2000]

Lifetime warrenties on butted ti really isn't that uncommon. It's probably more uncommon that today's builder/frame shops don't offer a lifetime on a butted frame.