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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    But then wider tires also give back any rolling advantage (on rough pavement) in the aero department when the speed picksup, and aero resistance trumps rolling resistance at higher speed. Well, if bigger is better, then world class time trial and track pursuit events would be using 40, 42, 45 mm tires and not 23, right?

    ......and downhill mountain bikers would use 19mm if it wasn't. How far shall we escalate that stupid line of reasoning?

    And no aero does not trump rolling resistance or visa versa per se. You'd need to (I would think obviously) define each and then let the numbers decide. I doubt a $10 Walmart tire at 23mm would be faster than a high quality, say, 32 mm tire at any speed regardless of being more aero. And while we're at it what to heck is 'higher speed'?

    And comfort also impacts speed. Not so much for short ride but I pretty much know I'm faster after 50 miles or so using 28mm instead of 23mm because my body will be less beat up. I also use 33mm on the road sometimes and am a little slower but those tires have aggressive file tread, 260TPI (vs 320) and I use regular tubes vs latex so it's probably not the size making me slower. Even then it's not slower by very much.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    Pursuit\track events are run on a glass smooth surface, not the road. Not only do they use smaller diameter tires, they use them at pressures that aren't \wouldn't be used on the road. apples\oranges

    As far as your pseudo science, if nothing is conclusive why are you so willing to believe in low volume over high volume? There is more to the ride than aero.

    Perceived as "racy", maybe in your world, but I really don't care what another persons perception of me is. I ride my bike for my reasons, not someone elses.

    And as far as marketing, how you enjoying that nice full carbon lightweight wonderbike, oh I'm sorry, I meant that nice full carbon aero wonderbike.

    Oh yeah, if bigger isn't better why aren't you riding 19\20mm tires that were once the bestest fastest tires?
    sorry to disappoint you skippy, but all of my bikes, except for one, is some type of metal, and in tradtional round tubes, either lugged, brazed, or tig welded. And in fact, until recently, a wheelset of mine on an original 1993 Casati is one of those old school narror rims running a 21mm tires, but I had to go to 23mm tires because well, you can't get 21mm tire these days, but that wheelset eventually weren't truable anymore so I ditched it, after 24 years of service, bless that Mavic set. I used to rail down the Santa Monica mountains and Malibu on that wheelset, absolutely no problem keeping up with the guys running aero wheels, and wider tires, eh.

    Since then, all my modern wheels now are either 23mm or 25mm wide, and all my tires are now either 23mm or 25mm wide to match up with the wheels. Yeah I still go faster with the new stuff, but not any faster than when I was on the old stuff. Yea, not science, but that's what I feel like it. The one thing I notice is that the wider rims and tires do feel a tad more comfortable, providing the psi is lowered, but handling wise, I would say anyting bigger than a 25mm tire & at lower psi (eg, 60 psi) is definitely SLOWER to me, doesn't feel ass sharp in high speed (45mph) sweepers, and can be a little vague when braking very hard into a corner while beginning to to lean the bike over.

    I've tried the Sectuer 28 (28mm wide) tire, put about 60 psi, and while it rolls nice like a couch going down a straightaway, it's a completely horribly crappy handling during very hard braking situation. Yea pumping up the psi helped, but that sort of defeat the purpose of riding a wide tire at low psi. Ended up ditching them on fleabay after a couple of rides

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    ......and downhill mountain bikers would use 19mm if it wasn't. How far shall we escalate that stupid line of reasoning?

    And no aero does not trump rolling resistance or visa versa per se. You'd need to (I would think obviously) define each and then let the numbers decide. I doubt a $10 Walmart tire at 23mm would be faster than a high quality, say, 32 mm tire at any speed regardless of being more aero. And while we're at it what to heck is 'higher speed'?

    And comfort also impacts speed. Not so much for short ride but I pretty much know I'm faster after 50 miles or so using 28mm instead of 23mm because my body will be less beat up. I also use 33mm on the road sometimes and am a little slower but those tires have aggressive file tread, 260TPI (vs 320) and I use regular tubes vs latex so it's probably not the size making me slower. Even then it's not slower by very much.
    well air resistance increases with the square of speed, but rolling resistance does not increase with speed. So just looking at principle alone, it's easy to see that with increasing speed, air resistance will become a progressively bigger factor. The question is, what is the cross-over point that air resistance trumps rolling resistance. I don't have the numbers, but I believe if you take in both bicycle and cyclist as a whole, it's like 15mph. All these tests of tire rolling resistance get a lot of hype, but what needs to be considered is tire + wheel + bike + rider, then we'll have a much better idea of just how much weight does rolling resistance come into play at a spectrum of speed.

    But let's just assume that a tire will save you 5 watts. Well, 5 watts is nothing when you consider an effort of 300 watts at say 25 mph. There are a billion things that can account for 5 watts (and much more) at that speed and wattage.

    I will readily admit that comfort is better on a wider tire, but this has always been the case. However, comfort is also a subjective thing, and for some people, comfort is not always the highest priority. For me, comfort has always been low on my priority list, but handling, especially sharp cornering and braking, has to be high because I like to go fast around corners and one mishaps and I could be faceplanting.

    as for mtb downhilling... well they have to run a wide and thicker tire with knobs for the abuse they sustain in their environment. Totally different, not even close to road vs. track thing.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    Have you much experience riding high volume tires?
    Oh, an internet measuring contest. Well, my experience on “high volume” tires this year was only a 207 mile race and a bunch of training for it. I have been racing mountain bikes since the mid 90s. Since Kanza, I probably only have a couple hundred of my about 9,000 miles for the year on the wider tires and bike.
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    This "wallowy mushy rear end feel" of which you speak has more to do with tire pressure than tire size. My 650b\42's do squirm when pressure is too low, but when properly inflated there is no problem with squirm.
    Agreed. It is the lower pressure run on big tires. The two are linked because you cannot run 100 psi in 42s. You win the argument that proves my point. I feel the mushiness at 300+ watts.
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    And if tire size doesn't influence handling on the road, why have 20mm tires lost favor to 23's and 25's and 28's more recently?
    Marketing. Advancement of knowledge. I ride 25s on my road bike. But, the point is 42s are way wider, run at a lower pressure, and are slower for the same power.
    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    As far as being slower than 25mm tires, while 650b\42 may not be as fast as 700c\25, I think tire construction and frame geometry has more to do with that than tire size. A bicycle frame designed for fast riding on 650b\42's may not be as fast as a bike on 700c tires and wheels, but it isn't going to be so slow as to not be able to ride in a fast group.
    So, you conclude by contradicting your entire post?
    As for as group rides, it depends. If you are in a hammer fest that you can barely hang on with a 700x25, you are getting dropped on the 42 tire pumped to 40-50 psi.
    That is also why I said in my original post that the slower tire may not matter to OP. It depends on the use of the bike.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    sorry to disappoint you skippy, but all of my bikes, except for one, is some type of metal, and in tradtional round tubes, either lugged, brazed, or tig welded. And in fact, until recently, a wheelset of mine on an original 1993 Casati is one of those old school narror rims running a 21mm tires, but I had to go to 23mm tires because well, you can't get 21mm tire these days, but that wheelset eventually weren't truable anymore so I ditched it, after 24 years of service, bless that Mavic set. I used to rail down the Santa Monica mountains and Malibu on that wheelset, absolutely no problem keeping up with the guys running aero wheels, and wider tires, eh.

    Since then, all my modern wheels now are either 23mm or 25mm wide, and all my tires are now either 23mm or 25mm wide to match up with the wheels. Yeah I still go faster with the new stuff, but not any faster than when I was on the old stuff. Yea, not science, but that's what I feel like it. The one thing I notice is that the wider rims and tires do feel a tad more comfortable, providing the psi is lowered, but handling wise, I would say anyting bigger than a 25mm tire & at lower psi (eg, 60 psi) is definitely SLOWER to me, doesn't feel ass sharp in high speed (45mph) sweepers, and can be a little vague when braking very hard into a corner while beginning to to lean the bike over.

    I've tried the Sectuer 28 (28mm wide) tire, put about 60 psi, and while it rolls nice like a couch going down a straightaway, it's a completely horribly crappy handling during very hard braking situation. Yea pumping up the psi helped, but that sort of defeat the purpose of riding a wide tire at low psi. Ended up ditching them on fleabay after a couple of rides
    You lost me with being faster on the new stuff but not faster than when on the old stuff. What does that even mean? But I'm glad to hear you're still riding metal bikes skippy, but so what. I will say that if the only reason you're riding 23 and 25mm tires is because you can't get 21mm tires, well, I'm sorry for your luck.

    But my real question is are you actually faster, as in a timed distance at a given power, or do you feel faster because of the perception of speed from the road chatter that you feel through those tires? This post of yours seems to be based on your perception of the ride, you know, not science.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    But my real question is are you actually faster, as in a timed distance at a given power, or do you feel faster because of the perception of speed from the road chatter that you feel through those tires? This post of yours seems to be based on your perception of the ride, you know, not science.
    I think you hit the nail on the head here, Velodog.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I think you hit the nail on the head here, Velodog.
    No, he didn't. He made a rhetorical question. He did not demonstrate that 42s pumped to their proper pressure (<50 psi) are the same speed as 23s/25s pumped to their proper pressure (90-100 psi).

    These threads always go the same way. The very wide tire group eventually says, "well they are more comfortable. So, i don't care that they may be slower".

    As discussed previouly, if very wide tires were better (same speed more comfortable), then pros would be rocking them on normal stages and tts.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    No, he didn't. He made a rhetorical question. He did not demonstrate that 42s pumped to their proper pressure (<50 psi) are the same speed as 23s/25s pumped to their proper pressure (90-100 psi).

    These threads always go the same way. The very wide tire group eventually says, "well they are more comfortable. So, i don't care that they may be slower".

    As discussed previouly, if very wide tires were better (same speed more comfortable), then pros would be rocking them on normal stages and tts.
    Yep, I said that the 700\25's may be faster than the 650\42's, but I also said that frame geometry has some influence on that. Typically larger volume tired bikes are built with less aggressive geometries than lower volume tired bikes so it's harder to compare apples to apples.

    Pros are rocking what they are given. And although they have choices that they can make, those choices still fall within the parameters offered up by their sponsors.

    Yeah, I'm faster on my bicycle wearing 25mm tires than I am on my bicycle wearing 42mm tires, but is it because of the tires or the fact that the 42mm bike has a loaded handlebar bag and generator hub? Or is it because of different geometries? Or is it a combination of all of these things?

    There is more to look at than just tire size in this discussion that I don't think is being considered.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    There is more to look at than just tire size in this discussion that I don't think is being considered.

    OP was discussing tire size. So, it is about tires. Obviously, loading down a bike with a bunch of crap will slow it down relative to that same bike sans crap.
    Last edited by crit_boy; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:18 AM.

  10. #35
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    Just pulled data. Same out and back route. 50 miles total.

    Schwalbe all round tle 700x36 at 50 psi
    Average moving speed: 17.4 mph
    Avg power: 185 W
    NP: 212 W
    Work: 1,918 KJ

    Conti 4000s ii, 700x25 at 100 psi
    Average moving speed: 17.6 mph
    Average power: 160 W
    NP: 178 W
    Work: 1,640 KJ

    Wide tire = more work, more power, less speed.

    Yes, these are different tires. Not a scientific controlled environment. Was a real world example.

    Put up some data or move on with your rhetorical theories.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Just pulled data. Same out and back route. 50 miles total.

    Schwalbe all round tle 700x36 at 50 psi
    Average moving speed: 17.4 mph
    Avg power: 185 W
    NP: 212 W
    Work: 1,918 KJ

    Conti 4000s ii, 700x25 at 100 psi
    Average moving speed: 17.6 mph
    Average power: 160 W
    NP: 178 W
    Work: 1,640 KJ

    Wide tire = more work, more power, less speed.

    Yes, these are different tires. Not a scientific controlled environment. Was a real world example.

    Put up some data or move on with your rhetorical theories.



    OP was discussing tire size. So, it is about tires. Obviously, loading down a bike with a bunch of crap will slow it down relative to that same bike sans crap.
    Thank you for this.

    I have a couple of questions.

    How different are the tires, both construction wise and tread pattern? Also have you tried the larger tires using a higher pressure, trying the tires for their handling abilities more so than for their comfort? I think that both these questions matter in real world examples and am not asking to be argumentative.
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  12. #37
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    You can google the tires to see the different patterns. They are different tires for different uses. However, the schwalbe all rounds are fast tires (faster than clement mso. pretty similar to clement las - those are the 3 sets that I have).

    You cannot pump wide tires up to narrow tire pressures. I think the all round pressure limit is 70 psi. I ride them between 40 and 50 psi. I run my road tires at 100 psi.

    The phrase everyone always ignores in the wide tires are faster is the "when run at the same pressure". It has been discussed multiple times on this forum. The wide tire crowd always ignores that qualifier (usually by stating that they run at lower pressure b/c it is more comfortable).

    WRT handling:
    - I do not have the confidence in the tire to dive the wider tires into a corner at near the speed i will on the 25s. Like I said, mushy and wallowy. IOW, no f'ny way i would run 36 width tires at 50 psi in a crit. Other people might. Not me.

    - Other problem I have is that they make me feel squirrelly at high power/speed. The softer tire and larger sidewall allows the back end of the bike to shift around. In a paceline on the rivet, that feeling is not confidence inspiring.

    With that, I will ride those tires on most fast group rides. I just know that there are a couple Wednesday night world type rides that there is a good chance I will get dropped with the multiple brutal (to me) accelerations on my wide/lower pressure tires.

    My strengths are neuromuscular power and VO2 max efforts. However, the lower pressure adds enough rolling resistance that you are pushing more power while sitting in. So, you get relatively less recovery.

    Relatively less recovery/higher average power plus relatively harder to match accelerations = burning more anaerobic work capacity to match them = better chance of getting dropped.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    The wide tire crowd always ignores that qualifier (usually by stating that they run at lower pressure b/c it is more comfortable).

    The 'it depends on the rider weight and road surface' crowd ignores the conversation entirely. Well, tries to.

    For all we know these conversations are between a 290 pounder who rides in Vermont where the 'road' absolutely suck arguing bigger is better/faster with someone 130 pound where the roads are great saying they are slower. They're both right, for them.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    You can google the tires to see the different patterns. They are different tires for different uses. However, the schwalbe all rounds are fast tires (faster than clement mso. pretty similar to clement las - those are the 3 sets that I have).

    You cannot pump wide tires up to narrow tire pressures. I think the all round pressure limit is 70 psi. I ride them between 40 and 50 psi. I run my road tires at 100 psi.

    The phrase everyone always ignores in the wide tires are faster is the "when run at the same pressure". It has been discussed multiple times on this forum. The wide tire crowd always ignores that qualifier (usually by stating that they run at lower pressure b/c it is more comfortable).

    WRT handling:
    - I do not have the confidence in the tire to dive the wider tires into a corner at near the speed i will on the 25s. Like I said, mushy and wallowy. IOW, no f'ny way i would run 36 width tires at 50 psi in a crit. Other people might. Not me.

    - Other problem I have is that they make me feel squirrelly at high power/speed. The softer tire and larger sidewall allows the back end of the bike to shift around. In a paceline on the rivet, that feeling is not confidence inspiring.

    With that, I will ride those tires on most fast group rides. I just know that there are a couple Wednesday night world type rides that there is a good chance I will get dropped with the multiple brutal (to me) accelerations on my wide/lower pressure tires.

    My strengths are neuromuscular power and VO2 max efforts. However, the lower pressure adds enough rolling resistance that you are pushing more power while sitting in. So, you get relatively less recovery.

    Relatively less recovery/higher average power plus relatively harder to match accelerations = burning more anaerobic work capacity to match them = better chance of getting dropped.
    No, you can't run a 38\42mm tire at 100psi, but they can be pushed past 50psi to firm them up some. I'm not putting out your power, as stated in your comparison post, but I do know that if I let my pressure drop below 45psi I start to feel them squirm. Above 45psi they firm up, and at 50 they start transmitting road irregularities. I'll pump them up to 50 and don't want them below 45. I'll run them lower when off the pavement. I'm 185lbs at about 180\210 watts.

    I run compass tires on my bike, 650b\42, but they have a 700c\38 also. These are road tires that don't have the heavy knobs of the tires that you're riding, which has as much to do with rolling resistance as pressure.

    https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/co...8-barlow-pass/

    There must be a reason that motorcycle road racing tires have grown to their larger volume.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    Just pulled data. Same out and back route. 50 miles total.

    Schwalbe all round tle 700x36 at 50 psi
    Average moving speed: 17.4 mph
    Avg power: 185 W
    NP: 212 W
    Work: 1,918 KJ

    Conti 4000s ii, 700x25 at 100 psi
    Average moving speed: 17.6 mph
    Average power: 160 W
    NP: 178 W
    Work: 1,640 KJ

    Wide tire = more work, more power, less speed.

    Yes, these are different tires. Not a scientific controlled environment. Was a real world example.

    Put up some data or move on with your rhetorical theories.
    I don't have any of that fancy power meter equipment, and I am not a racer, so I really don't care about downhill speeds. What I do know is what the bikes feel like and how fast it feels. I also know that I just broke uphill PR's on Strava with my gravel bike and I'm in nowhere near as good shape as I was last year at this time. Uphill speeds impress me, downhill speeds don't. I have even offered to let a few friends test ride my gravel bike and they agree it feels just as fast as their road bikes.

    Gravel bike weight: 23lbs.
    Tires: Clement Xplor MSO 700x36 50 PSI front/65 PSI rear

    Road bike weight: 18lbs.
    Tires: Maxxis Re-Fuse 700x28 70 PSI front/100 PSI rear

    Rider weight fully clothed: 180 lbs.
    Roads where I ride: Mixture of OK, crappy and in between.

    Verdict is it's a wash. I'm not here to try and prove wider is faster than narrow or vice versa. My main point is that it does not noticeably matter. So all other things being equal, why shouldn't I ride the more comfortable nicer riding bike?
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    .....but I do know that if I let my pressure drop below 45psi I start to feel them squirm. .
    Well yes, this makes some sense. Below 45 PSI is mountain bike tire pressure.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Well yes, this makes some sense. Below 45 PSI is mountain bike tire pressure.

    Depends on the size of the tire and the size of the rider/load.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by crit_boy View Post
    These threads always go the same way. The very wide tire group eventually says, "well they are more comfortable. So, i don't care that they may be slower".
    And there it is. . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    My main point is that it does not noticeably matter. So all other things being equal, why shouldn't I ride the more comfortable nicer riding bike?
    Once again, I gave power and speed data supporting my position.

    I don't care about comfort. Sitting on my chair watching TV is comfortable. I ride my bike for other reasons. Note that I have about 9,000 miles this year with 10 or more centuries and a gravel double - so don't post that I would care about comfort if I rode more.

    My guess is that OP cares about comfort over speed. So, all this really doesn't matter. Just bringing to light the wider is faster concept has limitations and qualifiers.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I don't have any of that fancy power meter equipment, and I am not a racer, so I really don't care about downhill speeds. What I do know is what the bikes feel like and how fast it feels. I also know that I just broke uphill PR's on Strava with my gravel bike and I'm in nowhere near as good shape as I was last year at this time. Uphill speeds impress me, downhill speeds don't. I have even offered to let a few friends test ride my gravel bike and they agree it feels just as fast as their road bikes.

    Gravel bike weight: 23lbs.
    Tires: Clement Xplor MSO 700x36 50 PSI front/65 PSI rear

    Road bike weight: 18lbs.
    Tires: Maxxis Re-Fuse 700x28 70 PSI front/100 PSI rear

    Rider weight fully clothed: 180 lbs.
    Roads where I ride: Mixture of OK, crappy and in between.

    Verdict is it's a wash. I'm not here to try and prove wider is faster than narrow or vice versa. My main point is that it does not noticeably matter. So all other things being equal, why shouldn't I ride the more comfortable nicer riding bike?
    Well a big factor there is you're using really $hitty 28mm tires, as far as anything but flat protections goes, vs some of the better 36mm tires on the market.

  20. #45
    What the what???
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    Wasn’t this thread about steel bikes???


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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    Wasn’t this thread about steel bikes???
    LOL you must be new here

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Migen21 View Post
    LOL you must be new here
    Yeah... I gotta stop reading thread titles... it just slows up the work...


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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Well a big factor there is you're using really $hitty 28mm tires, as far as anything but flat protections goes, vs some of the better 36mm tires on the market.
    Interesting. Re-Fuses do ride a little harsher than some other tires, but reducing pressure helps. The price to pay for a bombproof tire. But increased rolling resistance vs. say a Conti GP 4000S II?

    The Clement Xpor MSOs have a tread which I would have thought would slow me down, but apparently not. I am considering trying the Challenge Strada Bianca 36mm.
    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein

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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I am considering trying the Challenge Strada Bianca 36mm.
    I've only used the 30 version but those are outstanding. 36mm ain't for me though because if I want a tire that big it means I'm getting into something where I'll also want a little extra traction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Interesting. Re-Fuses do ride a little harsher than some other tires, but reducing pressure helps. The price to pay for a bombproof tire. But increased rolling resistance vs. say a Conti GP 4000S II?
    About a 100% chance that re-fuses have more rolling resistance than 4000s.

    Bunch of different tire rolling resistances here: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

    Don't see maxxis.

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